Two Sides Mafia: Side A, Endgame, The Old Ways

[Victor Sullivan]

I mean, crazy's right. Your proposal doesn't necessarily give you town status - certainly not town/town. I think PCM already rebutted that statement a couple times.

-Sully

[Some7hingCLEVER]

I mean, crazy's right. Your proposal doesn't necessarily give you town status - certainly not town/town. I think PCM already rebutted that statement a couple times.

-Sully

exactly i feel it may work in the later of the game like...way later..but during day one it is useless

[drunkmonkey]

Rodion, there are three things I am interested in:

1. Chasing a potential victory in a game of the mind.
2. Achieving that victory in the best possible fashion for me.
3. Enduring a challenge while pursuing that victory, thus enhancing my enjoyment of it.

Your suggestion ruins all three of those things for me. If we do follow your plan, it will only be because we gamed the system. I won't enjoy that. I'll feel robbed. And for that reason I'm retaining my vote on you. In addition, without full disclosure from you in what you're asking from us, there can be no safety. There can be no trust. And asking, nay, demanding it without reciprocating will not get you anywhere. It will just get you lynched.

I feel the same way, but I don't think it makes Rodion scummy. By saying he's trying to "game the system", you admit he's trying to win this for town. Yet he currently has a 2 vote lead in a game with a mandatory lynch and a short deadline, and you use this reasoning to justify keeping your vote on him.

FOS pancakemix

[pancakemix]

Rodion, there are three things I am interested in:

1. Chasing a potential victory in a game of the mind.
2. Achieving that victory in the best possible fashion for me.
3. Enduring a challenge while pursuing that victory, thus enhancing my enjoyment of it.

Your suggestion ruins all three of those things for me. If we do follow your plan, it will only be because we gamed the system. I won't enjoy that. I'll feel robbed. And for that reason I'm retaining my vote on you. In addition, without full disclosure from you in what you're asking from us, there can be no safety. There can be no trust. And asking, nay, demanding it without reciprocating will not get you anywhere. It will just get you lynched.

I feel the same way, but I don't think it makes Rodion scummy. By saying he's trying to "game the system", you admit he's trying to win this for town. Yet he currently has a 2 vote lead in a game with a mandatory lynch and a short deadline, and you use this reasoning to justify keeping your vote on him.

FOS pancakemix

You misunderstand. I'll admit I think the game isn't fun if we do that, but the scumminess comes stems from his approach to the matter. He's not being upfront about his motives (admittedly so). If you had read my posts further along you'd know that, but I guess trying to make me out as someone looking for an easy lynch has got you hung up.

I mean, crazy's right. Your proposal doesn't necessarily give you town status - certainly not town/town. I think PCM already rebutted that statement a couple times.

And this is what I'm getting at. You can't honestly expect people to trust you when you won't even answer that question yourself. And if you expect us to accept that your town/town without any evidence, you're kidding yourself.

That's perfectly cool as long as you move your vote away from me should you ever consider someone more scummy (and quite frankly I can't see how I'm being scummy for trying to get mafia to confess). I'll take (more) issue with it if you park your vote on me out of spite for the way I play. I know we have butted heads more than once regarding our playing styles. You heavily disliked my plan covering night actions in GP: Greek and you expressed a similar feeling when I replaced back into NBC with another plan (my plans were solid in both games by the way and town only lost GP: Greek because you guys decided my Hermes role was too weird to be believable and therefore threw my gameplan out of the window). And now this. Perhaps you are an old school guy with an old school modus operandi and you're bothered by the way I play (it's your prerogative). Just make sure that negativeness is not going to protect scummier people simply because you may have a grudge with me (this whole paragraph can be disregarded if you are not town/town).

No grudge, but you're right in that I disagree with your methods. A game plan is scummy to me because telling people what they should do is scummy (and as for Greek, I had no reason to believe Poseidon was fake. I never would have guessed that). I'll keep my vote on you for as long as I feel you're the best candidate.

And this is the kind of comment that will keep my vote where it is. It's an underhanded way of trying to get me to go along with your plan, and sets up a total WIFOM scenario. If you really want me to change my vote, you're not doing yourself any favors.

[jonty125]

"I am town in one game and mafia in the other", do you think players that are town in both would be more or less likely to win their games?

When you say John, I assume you mean me. Please call me jonty. And I suppose you could argue they're more likely because they know that person X has a 50% chance of mafia. But no-one is going to confess to being mafia because they'll soon be lynched in one game and night-killed in the other. So my vote remains because your trying to manipulate people and you still haven't addressed how your theroy works if you have 3rd parties (which their could be).

[drunkmonkey]

Rodion, there are three things I am interested in:

1. Chasing a potential victory in a game of the mind.
2. Achieving that victory in the best possible fashion for me.
3. Enduring a challenge while pursuing that victory, thus enhancing my enjoyment of it.

Your suggestion ruins all three of those things for me. If we do follow your plan, it will only be because we gamed the system. I won't enjoy that. I'll feel robbed. And for that reason I'm retaining my vote on you. In addition, without full disclosure from you in what you're asking from us, there can be no safety. There can be no trust. And asking, nay, demanding it without reciprocating will not get you anywhere. It will just get you lynched.

I feel the same way, but I don't think it makes Rodion scummy. By saying he's trying to "game the system", you admit he's trying to win this for town. Yet he currently has a 2 vote lead in a game with a mandatory lynch and a short deadline, and you use this reasoning to justify keeping your vote on him.

FOS pancakemix

You misunderstand. I'll admit I think the game isn't fun if we do that, but the scumminess comes stems from his approach to the matter. He's not being upfront about his motives (admittedly so). If you had read my posts further along you'd know that, but I guess trying to make me out as someone looking for an easy lynch has got you hung up.

This post?

I'm not demanding anything. I made players that fit into a specific criterium an offer that they can choose to take or not. They did not. Tough luck, we'll have to do this the hard way, at least for now.

Did I understand correctly that you are voting me because my approach is sucking the fun out of the game? How do you intend to chase and achieve a victory while your votes are not placed into people you perceive to be scummy?

Except for that I do perceive your offer as scummy, or at least the way you went about it. You can't expect people to reveal a huge portion of their role without similar honesty and for an unclear purpose. It's just not going to happen. So my vote, then, is twofold in reasoning.

Given the first part of your post, I take it you're backing off from your offer?

You go on to say that the second reason you're keeping your vote on him is because he wasn't upfront about his plan (the first reason being because he's taking enjoyment out of the game). He wasn't upfront about why he was telling mafia to claim they were mafia in one of the games. I admit, I didn't see what his plan was, and I posted reasons it would backfire, but I can't see a good reason a mafia member would want other mafia to out themselves. I guess maybe if he's A mafia, and a B mafia claimed "mafia/town", he could confirm them as B mafia. But that runs a risk of giving himself away in A. If he's doing it strictly to catch scum, he's not going to come out and say "mafia should claim M/T, and then this is how we'll catch them later". I think it's shaky reasoning to keep a vote on someone, and coming up with two "so-so" reasons is overcompensating for the fact that there isn't really one "good" reason.

[Rodion]

Just read up on every thing and I Shall FoS Rodion and possible vote until further notice.

Can you give a reason to go with your FOS, if that's not too much to ask?

I find your offer quite scummy and with your quick "i'm town" doesnt help the situation either,

Why is the offer scummy? Do you think one (or both) of the towns would get closer to a loss if someone were to take me on the confessing offer?

I just said I was town/town to show I was not trying to make a deal that I myself would later accept (because THAT would be fishy).

Victor - I don't think I've ever said I deserved town status because of my proposal. As of right now, nobody does. Do you agree? If you do, what is exactly the reason you are arguing to keep your (possibly joke, I can't really tell) vote on me?

"I am town in one game and mafia in the other", do you think players that are town in both would be more or less likely to win their games?

When you say John, I assume you mean me. Please call me jonty. And I suppose you could argue they're more likely because they know that person X has a 50% chance of mafia. But no-one is going to confess to being mafia because they'll soon be lynched in one game and night-killed in the other. So my vote remains because your trying to manipulate people and you still haven't addressed how your theroy works if you have 3rd parties (which their could be).

I adressed that question to Monkey, not to you.

So, your vote remains because I'm trying to manipulate mafia (as in "the enemy") and because I did not mention any possible 3rd-parties? What makes you so worried about 3rd-parties? Would you rather not see a mafia confess because this game could have a 3rd-party? What is the logical connection that turns "finding 1 mafia" (which is usually considered good) into something bad simply because there may be a 3rd-party? (the last question is the most important one)

If he's doing it strictly to catch scum, he's not going to come out and say "mafia should claim M/T, and then this is how we'll catch them later".

This and it is rather surprising that other people couldn't reach this conclusion.

[Rodion]

This and it is rather surprising that other people couldn't reach this conclusion.

Because I play a lot of CC team games with Monkey and I know he is not a rocket scientist!

[drunkmonkey]

This and it is rather surprising that other people couldn't reach this conclusion.

Because I play a lot of CC team games with Monkey and I know he is not a rocket scientist!

OTOH, maybe he is scum...

[jonty125]

What makes you so worried about 3rd-parties? Would you rather not see a mafia confess because this game could have a 3rd-party? What is the logical connection that turns "finding 1 mafia" (which is usually considered good) into something bad simply because there may be a 3rd-party? (the last question is the most important one)

Well /'s last mafia was Resort (I think) and that had some pretty mad roles so a cult or SK isn't out of the realms of possibility with how / likes to mod his games. And I don't see the link between "finding 1 mafia" & may be a 3rd party.

[Rodion]

If you don't see the link, can that possibly mean that finding mafia is good regardless of the existence of a 3rd-party?

[Victor Sullivan]

Victor - I don't think I've ever said I deserved town status because of my proposal. As of right now, nobody does. Do you agree? If you do, what is exactly the reason you are arguing to keep your (possibly joke, I can't really tell) vote on me?

See, that's what I mean. We don't know your motives - we don't know if you're town/town, town/mafia, mafia/mafia, etc. And from the looks of it, it seems more likely that you aren't town/town.

-Sully

[safariguy5]

Here's the thing about taking the deal. Assuming someone does take the deal. So we lynch them in the side where he's mafia and we assume he's town in the other side. He immediately rises to the top of the mafia kill list as being a psuedoconfirmed townie. Which means he'll probably die relatively early there as well.

Now, not only is he dead in both games, the promise of a town win is still unclear for him, AND he cannot do anything to push the town win closer to reality because he's dead.

[jonty125]

If you don't see the link, can that possibly mean that finding mafia is good regardless of the existence of a 3rd-party?

Yes, but as I'm town-aligned I can't win with third party and vice-versa (other than survivor) so they're enemies effectively.

[Rodion]

@VS - "The looks of it"? That's some solid attempt at scumhunting!

Here's the thing about taking the deal. Assuming someone does take the deal. So we lynch them in the side where he's mafia and we assume he's town in the other side. He immediately rises to the top of the mafia kill list as being a psuedoconfirmed townie. Which means he'll probably die relatively early there as well.

Now, not only is he dead in both games, the promise of a town win is still unclear for him, AND he cannot do anything to push the town win closer to reality because he's dead.

Make no mistake about that: I agree with a good ammount of what you say. But why are you arguing that it is best for mafia players NOT to take the deal? If you truly think that and are a town/town player, keep it for yourself and hope they will confess anyway. At least the game in which he confesses to be mafia will earn town a solid boost, right? So why derail the plan by showing mafia players why they shouldn't accept it?

Yes, but as I'm town-aligned I can't win with third party and vice-versa (other than survivor) so they're enemies effectively.

You've totally missed the point. Monkey, maybe you could make him understand? 'Cuz I give up.

[Victor Sullivan]

It's not like you're doing much better, Rodion

-Sully

[edocsil]

@VS - "The looks of it"? That's some solid attempt at scumhunting!

Here's the thing about taking the deal. Assuming someone does take the deal. So we lynch them in the side where he's mafia and we assume he's town in the other side. He immediately rises to the top of the mafia kill list as being a psuedoconfirmed townie. Which means he'll probably die relatively early there as well.

Now, not only is he dead in both games, the promise of a town win is still unclear for him, AND he cannot do anything to push the town win closer to reality because he's dead.

Make no mistake about that: I agree with a good ammount of what you say. But why are you arguing that it is best for mafia players NOT to take the deal? If you truly think that and are a town/town player, keep it for yourself and hope they will confess anyway. At least the game in which he confesses to be mafia will earn town a solid boost, right? So why derail the plan by showing mafia players why they shouldn't accept it?

I am going to say this one last time and then I am not going to continue this unless there is a question specifically addressed to me about it.

You are a good player, so you know that the S/T is going to have serious problems if he agrees to this.

You have some plan going to trick people (someone specific I imagine) and I see it having potential to do me harm as a townie (dead/recruited town will happen because of a claim like this)

I distrust this plan because it seems to have little to do with a town victory, so I do my best to put a stick between the spokes so to speak.

[/]

An A Vote Count

You are on side A
!%$!@#$% same as yesterday!

Sully; 1 vote: safari
Rodion; 3 votes: PCM, VS, jonty

with 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch

Deadline Thursday

[Rodion]

I've seen Milkshake "browsing this forum" for a good portion of the day. Too bad all he really ended up doing was unvote his jokevote on Side B. What makes him ignore the much more important discussion in Side A in a game with a really short deadline puzzles me, but hopefully I can get an answer by voting CMS.

[Rodion]

http://imageshack.us/f/521/cms.png

Online after being called out and offline before replying?

This is not looking good...

[crazymilkshake5]

I dont stalk the mafia forum, nor CC, I'm on Sporadically, so i cant post every time im on, and i literally just checked this. And others have been more silent than I have...

[Rodion]

25+ minutes to write this? Ok...

Others who?
And what do you think about their silence?
And why would you prioritize unvoting your jokevote on Side B over answering a more important question on Side A?

Just read up on every thing and I Shall FoS Rodion and possible vote until further notice.

Can you give a reason to go with your FOS, if that's not too much to ask?

I find your offer quite scummy and with your quick "i'm town" doesnt help the situation either,

Why is the offer scummy? Do you think one (or both) of the towns would get closer to a loss if someone were to take me on the confessing offer?

[pancakemix]

He wasn't upfront about why he was telling mafia to claim they were mafia in one of the games. I admit, I didn't see what his plan was, and I posted reasons it would backfire, but I can't see a good reason a mafia member would want other mafia to out themselves. I guess maybe if he's A mafia, and a B mafia claimed "mafia/town", he could confirm them as B mafia. But that runs a risk of giving himself away in A. If he's doing it strictly to catch scum, he's not going to come out and say "mafia should claim M/T, and then this is how we'll catch them later". I think it's shaky reasoning to keep a vote on someone, and coming up with two "so-so" reasons is overcompensating for the fact that there isn't really one "good" reason.

That's not what I was saying. I'm saying he's not telling us whether he's M/T or not. That's not fair if he's asking for that disclosure from others. His whole plan is based around unconditional trust and I don't see how he could hope to achieve that.

[drunkmonkey]

He wasn't upfront about why he was telling mafia to claim they were mafia in one of the games. I admit, I didn't see what his plan was, and I posted reasons it would backfire, but I can't see a good reason a mafia member would want other mafia to out themselves. I guess maybe if he's A mafia, and a B mafia claimed "mafia/town", he could confirm them as B mafia. But that runs a risk of giving himself away in A. If he's doing it strictly to catch scum, he's not going to come out and say "mafia should claim M/T, and then this is how we'll catch them later". I think it's shaky reasoning to keep a vote on someone, and coming up with two "so-so" reasons is overcompensating for the fact that there isn't really one "good" reason.

That's not what I was saying. I'm saying he's not telling us whether he's M/T or not. That's not fair if he's asking for that disclosure from others. His whole plan is based around unconditional trust and I don't see how he could hope to achieve that.

Huh? From his original "plea bargain" post:

That said, I'm a town/town player (going with the 9-3 speculation, there are at least 6 town/town players in the game).

[crazymilkshake5]

25+ minutes to write this? Ok...

Others who?
And what do you think about their silence?
And why would you prioritize unvoting your jokevote on Side B over answering a more important question on Side A?

Just read up on every thing and I Shall FoS Rodion and possible vote until further notice.

Can you give a reason to go with your FOS, if that's not too much to ask?

I find your offer quite scummy and with your quick "i'm town" doesnt help the situation either,

Why is the offer scummy? Do you think one (or both) of the towns would get closer to a loss if someone were to take me on the confessing offer?

Well first off It was your first post, And in that first post you very quickly claimed town/town while appealing to town/mafia (switch) players, If you claimed town/mafia (switch) then i would probabbly believe you, but you didnt, but i dont mean to say that nobody should take your offer. I just strongly dislike the fact that you claimed town/town IN YOUR FIRST POST!
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