[CL4] Ph2 Div 3 - Winner: BotFM MVP: pop.vol

[gradybridges]

WAR away vs OTP

Doubles
sdh/sekretar- American civil war, esc, no fog, chained
sdh/sekretar - europe1914, chained, no fog, escalating

Triples
stevenshome/dkjose/Ghengis.Kalm - eastern hemi, unlimited, fog, no spoils
stevenshome/dkjose/Ghengis.Kalm - Egypt valley of the kings, esc, chained, foggy

Quads
sdh/Mass Miracle/gradybridges/shivi- Bamboo, esc, chained, sunny
hmsps/tony1973/Kingm/Shaun850 - Galapagos, no spoils, chained, fog

[ViperOverLord]

What's with KOA not posting their home games? I can't fill out a line-up if they're not going to post. I see that they missed three Sunday deadlines in a row now.

[IcePack]

What's with KOA not posting their home games? I can't fill out a line-up if they're not going to post. I see that they missed three Sunday deadlines in a row now.

Not sure what's up, I've been away all weekend. I'll try finding out.

IcePack

[merch313]

What's with KOA not posting their home games? I can't fill out a line-up if they're not going to post. I see that they missed three Sunday deadlines in a row now.

Since they missed all the games will be Random Esc, Chained and Sunny

[jefjef]

What's with KOA not posting their home games? I can't fill out a line-up if they're not going to post. I see that they missed three Sunday deadlines in a row now.

Since they missed all the games will be Random Esc, Chained and Sunny

Huh. Well I was just ready to post. But fine by me. You should probably expect us to withdraw. Have a nice day.

Dubs
Estebanzia - jammyjames
jakes1 - farm

Trips
maxcst - megaswoman - gqmecock
Odeuminus - link0983 - IcePack

Quads
SC MAN - beardbuster - maverick0710 - laholaesmia
morff69 - greenoaks - aad0906 - foreverman

[ViperOverLord]

Man D Round 3 Road Line-Up

Doubles

KiIIface, LordDusan
KiIIface, LordDusan

Triples

ViperOverLord, Robespierre__, Astro Gypsy,
ViperOverLord, Robespierre__, Astro Gypsy

Quads

ViperOverLord, Astro Gypsy, Robespierre__, Sea Bass Magnus
ViperOverLord, Astro Gypsy, Robespierre__, Sea Bass Magnus

[Finsfleet]

I thought readline for posting is monday night, not sunday night? And with a little bit of loose attitude because of the time zone differences? They posted it on time the way I see it.

[Keefie]

The deadline for the post is Monday night CC time, however you must have already pm'd merch313 by midnight sunday. As far as I'm concerned there should be no flexibility, it's the same for all.

It's pretty clear:

A list of home game maps, settings and players need to be sent to the DD no later than Sunday night midnight CC time. If there is any ambiguity regarding maps and settings (e.g. a first contact states "Feudal", then the DD can use their judgment to decide what this means - e.g. "Feudal Epic"). [The opposition 1st contact no longer needs to be sent this list by PM]

The same list of home game maps, settings and players must be posted, by the home clan first contact, in the division thread (for the benefit of the opposing 1st contact) no later than Monday night midnight CC time. Failure to make this post will result in the Division Director randomly selecting two of the offending clan's away games in that round, and randomly assigning players to these two games from the clan's provisional list of players (the other away games will be assigned players as per the First Contact's list).

[Keefie]

HH away line up vs BotFM

D Classic - Keef12, Toads
D Random - Keefie, Join Cad
T Pearl Harbour - Awesome A, Bretzsky, Riskier than you
T Atlantis - Awesome A, runboy59, snuden
Q Fractured America - Vadim5, Johnny Dickshot, Snuden, Juan Barazi
Q New World - Alexinho, Johnny Dickshot, Danfrank, Seamusk

[IcePack]

So we weren't late to post? What purpose does 2 deadlines serve other than to delay or confuse...if nothing can change once given to merch Sunday, why is there another deadline? One deadline for both would be sufficient one would think.

Clearly we aren't the only confused one if MD said we were late when we weren't.

IcePack

[Keefie]

Well you were clearly late for the second deadline.

The point of two deadlines is so your opposition can't gain an advantage by seeing which maps your going to play prior to submitting their own.

[Teflon Kris]

So we weren't late to post? What purpose does 2 deadlines serve other than to delay or confuse...if nothing can change once given to merch Sunday, why is there another deadline? One deadline for both would be sufficient one would think.

Clearly we aren't the only confused one if MD said we were late when we weren't.

IcePack

The purpose it serves it keeping some of the more detail oriented cvlan leaders happy.

Unfortunately, if there were only one deadline then there would be potential dummy-spitting as a result of some clans being able to read other opponents lists before posting their own, which would be considered unfair by the clans with the earlier bedtime.

Therefore having two deadlines prevents this potential dummy-spit as late-bedtime clan leaders aren't able to scrutinise opponents lists before posting their own in order to gain the slenderest of strategic advantages.

jefjef's dummy-spit provides an example of how a small issue can lead to the toys being thrown out of the pram, thus justifying the need for all of these rules to prevent dummy-spitting opportunities.

However, despite our best attempts to legislate against dummy-spitting, it still seems to occur. We will therefore have to create dummy-spitting consequences. Perhaps the case of AKA's former contact may be used as a precedent - i.e. clan contacts threatening to withdraw their clan from competitions will no longer be allowed to continue in their role as contact, or post in the relevent forums? In fact, if we didn't use this case as a precedent there would be all sorts of dummies flying around and a lot of toys to put back into various prams. jefjef beware!

[IcePack]

Well you were clearly late for the second deadline.

The point of two deadlines is so your opposition can't gain an advantage by seeing which maps your going to play prior to submitting their own.

First deadline*. The second deadline (Monday) had not passed yet so it wasn't required to be posted until that night.

[jefjef]

if we didn't use this case as a precedent there would be all sorts of dummies flying around and a lot of toys to put back into various prams. jefjef beware!

Here's your precident DJ.

KOA withdraws from this competition.

Have a dummy-split day!

[Teflon Kris]

KOA withdraws from this competition.

Have a dummy-split day!

Its dummy-spit, not split mate.

I was trying to make light of the situation and give you a way out as threatening to withdraw is a major clan contact sin (I thought you and Ice were the current contacts?).

[MudPuppy]

From the Online Slang Dictionary:

dummy-spit:

• used to describe an outburst of anger or tantrum (Dummy, pacifier - a rubber teat used by babies for suckling)
• explosion of anger, tantrum. A "dummy" is a baby's pacifier. When you're angry, you have to spit out the dummy. Also spit the dummy

[xman5151]

In defense of the organizers for this, this rule has been in place since roughly week 2 of phase 1 (I know it changed a little at 1 point), so you guys should have already been doing this/known how to do this for at least 3 or 4 weeks in the last phase, I don't know if all your games were random because you couldn't meet the deadlines or what.

Now I do agree having 3 different deadlines each week is tough to deal with, and probably 1 too many, but rules are rules, deadlines are deadlines. Quitting part way through the competition because you can no longer meet the deadlines hardly seems reasonable. Especially in a huge clan like yours where you can surely have someone help you out with reminders, creating home teams etc.

[jefjef]

In defense of the organizers for this, this rule has been in place since roughly week 2 of phase 1 (I know it changed a little at 1 point), so you guys should have already been doing this/known how to do this for at least 3 or 4 weeks in the last phase

Our original contact for this moved on. I stepped in phase 2. I had zero interest in KOA participating in this and I have even less interest now.

explosion of anger, tantrum. A "dummy" is a baby's pacifier. When you're angry, you have to spit out the dummy. Also spit the dummy

This is funny shit. You call my actions an "explosion of anger"? It's just an explosion of meh. You haven't seen anger..

You all have a nice day.

[Keefie]

A completely over the top reaction. If they had dummy spitting in the Olympics Jefjef would be a contender

Seriously though, KoA DID enter and now are screwing up the tourney for the rest of the clans who can meet deadlines. Instead of getting all wound up why can't you just accept that you were late and take playing a couple of random games on the chin.

Personally I'd like to see clans who withdraw mid-competition banned from all clan competitions, CLA approved or not.

[Teflon Kris]

I did make a botch-up in the above post for which I apologise (and have now corrected) - I referred to the potential precedent of KOA's former contact - I actually meant AKA's former contact (who twice threatened to withdraw then asked for his clan to continue and was thereby replaced by another AKA contact).

And jefjef is correct when suggesting that such moves should involve CDs.

[IcePack]

In defense of the organizers for this, this rule has been in place since roughly week 2 of phase 1 (I know it changed a little at 1 point), so you guys should have already been doing this/known how to do this for at least 3 or 4 weeks in the last phase, I don't know if all your games were random because you couldn't meet the deadlines or what.

Now I do agree having 3 different deadlines each week is tough to deal with, and probably 1 too many, but rules are rules, deadlines are deadlines. Quitting part way through the competition because you can no longer meet the deadlines hardly seems reasonable. Especially in a huge clan like yours where you can surely have someone help you out with reminders, creating home teams etc.

I haven't been involved other than a few games to this point and was away all weekend for birthday festivities. I didn't even know we were late until MD posted, which apparently we weren't even late for?

Coming into this as "backup" and not knowing all those technicalities and bits and pieces of info and having to read a novel for a rule book makes it difficult to step in on a moments notice while at work on your birthday.

I have no problem meeting deadlines, I just didn't know about it. And as second contact, I'm not sure how I can step in to post games if first contact is MIA without him beig late first. How am I to know he will miss a deadline until he misses it? (especially when I'm busy). A PM warning to second contact would have been lovely.

I'm not trying to make an excuse, just providing feedback etc. also, if the deadlines is solely so some people don't see it before others posted it, wont other clans still have the same issue on Monday rather than Sunday? Depending on their time zones? Why not simplify it, have everyone pm merch by the deadline and have merch either compile it into one PM sent out at the exact same time or individually to the contacts?

IcePack

[merch313]

Well you were clearly late for the second deadline.

The point of two deadlines is so your opposition can't gain an advantage by seeing which maps your going to play prior to submitting their own.

First deadline*. The second deadline (Monday) had not passed yet so it wasn't required to be posted until that night.

Ice, I sent a reminder to all contacts on either Friday or Saturday reminding them all the I need games to be by Sunday. You are right the second deadline was not missed but the first one was which is getting me the games by Sunday at midnight. That is why I posted all the games would now be random with the default settings. But moot point anyway

[IcePack]

Understood. Please see my PM.

Also - for the record KOA will continue in the CLA 4: Div 3. Please remove Jefjef as KOA primary contact and place me as first contact. I will get back to you with a secondary contact shortly.

Thanks,
IcePack

[ViperOverLord]

I'll take some fault for not knowing about the double deadline. Even though I haven't been worried about it, it makes sense to not allow other clans to see your hand (if a clan wants to avoid that potential disadvantage). In the future, I think a way to avoid the double deadline for submitting home maps; it could be easy for the TO to just copy/paste all of the games from pms into one post on Monday. But I'm not complaining, that's just a suggestion.

[IcePack]

I'll take some fault for not knowing about the double deadline. Even though I haven't been worried about it, it makes sense to not allow other clans to see your hand (if a clan wants to avoid that potential disadvantage). In the future, I think a way to avoid the double deadline for submitting home maps; it could be easy for the TO to just copy/paste all of the games from pms into one post on Monday. But I'm not complaining, that's just a suggestion.

Agreed, possible future improvement.