Honesty

[Timminz]

I voted dishonestly in the poll.

[BigBallinStalin]

Oh, Timminz! You so silly!

[jimboston]

I sometimes lie by ommission and I'll tell white lies. My view on lying is one of getting caught. If there is a risk that I'll get caught if I lie, I don't lie. I try to take a longer term view of things.

Is lying by ommission the same as lying?

If I am in sales and I compare my product X to my competitors product Y.

Through competitive research and analysis, I may know my competitor has a better product... or at least some features of his may be better than mine.

When I go on a Sales Call and a customer asks me to explain "why is your product a better choice?"

I don't outright lie... but will focus on the positive attributes of my offering... or talk more about the features where I have an advantage... make those features seem more important than the other features where I don't have an advantage.

I won't outright lie about the facts... but I may not tell the customer EVERYTHING I know.

Is this lying?

[jimboston]

Legality, honesty and tradition are for old people who are too tired to run the race any more.

You have a fucked up world view.

... unless this quote is a lie and not your truth believe.

[TA1LGUNN3R]

Depends on the situation. I am always honest in matters of business or among people I respect, like my kin or friends. However, I have no problem utilizing lies against other people if it's called for. For instance, if I was subpoenaed or something to give testimony, I would have no problem lying if it was beneficial to me or mine.

However, I will say I don't have much cause to lie. I'm typically bluntly honest about things just because it's easier, and if people don't like it they can kick rocks for all I care.

-TG

[huamulan]

I don't see what's wrong with that world view. All three things I named are abstract concepts that people lie back on to provide some sort of safety in the world around them. They're incapable of fending off a hostile party so they declare this hostile party 'immoral' and demand that wider society helps them deal with it.

Take tradition and legality - living your life by ideas of morality and conduct that are hundreds of years old? We might as well start treating illness with sacrifice all over again (some people still do this - maybe they're onto something). Most countries have a legal system founded on their traditional religion - in a secular society, why are these religious principles still relevant?

[BigBallinStalin]

Honesty, the grammar is excellent ITT.

[thegreekdog]

Honestly, the grammar is excellent ITT.

Fixed.

[BigBallinStalin]

I've reported myself for baiting, trolling, bigotry, and secret diplomacy--just in case.

[Woodruff]

I sometimes lie by ommission and I'll tell white lies. My view on lying is one of getting caught. If there is a risk that I'll get caught if I lie, I don't lie. I try to take a longer term view of things.

Is lying by ommission the same as lying?

If I am in sales and I compare my product X to my competitors product Y.

Through competitive research and analysis, I may know my competitor has a better product... or at least some features of his may be better than mine.

When I go on a Sales Call and a customer asks me to explain "why is your product a better choice?"

I don't outright lie... but will focus on the positive attributes of my offering... or talk more about the features where I have an advantage... make those features seem more important than the other features where I don't have an advantage.

I won't outright lie about the facts... but I may not tell the customer EVERYTHING I know.

Is this lying?

I would say in THAT PARTICULAR instance, it is not a lie because the customer explicitly asked you why your product was a better choice. They did not ask you to compare the two product (in which case your response would be lying, in my opinion).

[hiitsmestevie1]

first.off...sorry.my.space.bar.is.broken.on.this.laptop.

it.sucks.that-You may select 1 option...as.i.would.chose.a.bunch...

i.turely.believe.A person is nothing without his word.
as.well.as. Everyone tells white lies, but i wouldn't lie for something that's actually important.
as.well.asI like being honest as much as possible, but I'll fib if the circumstances really call for it.
being.a.realestate.agent... I don't want the social stigma associated with dishonesty.is.100%.accurate
***this.is.the.one.part.i.totally.disagree.with.. ***It's only cheating if you get caught. =soNOTtrue***
It's not a lie if you believe it.

[AndyDufresne]

first.off...sorry.my.space.bar.is.broken.on.this.laptop.

it.sucks.that-You may select 1 option...as.i.would.chose.a.bunch...

i.turely.believe.A person is nothing without his word.
as.well.as. Everyone tells white lies, but i wouldn't lie for something that's actually important.
as.well.asI like being honest as much as possible, but I'll fib if the circumstances really call for it.
being.a.realestate.agent... I don't want the social stigma associated with dishonesty.is.100%.accurate
***this.is.the.one.part.i.totally.disagree.with.. ***It's only cheating if you get caught. =soNOTtrue***
It's not a lie if you believe it.

You.should.get.a.wireless.keyboard.and.mouse.then.you.don't.have.to.use.the.broken.keyboard.and.you.don't.have.to.buy.a.new.laptop.

Logitech.has.some.decent.and.inexpensive.wireless.products.


--Andy

[BigBallinStalin]

we.should.set.a.new.rule.which.states.that.all.users.must.replace.all.spaces.with.a.period.such.as.this.one:."."...

all.in.favor.say:"..forever"

[huamulan]

But, Woodruff, what about when the customer buys your product, enjoys it for some time and is then informed that there was a better product on the market? The 'lie by omission' will be uncovered and they will be distraught. SHAMALAMALAM! He kicks into touch and that's the final whistle!

i.am.happy.to.talk.like.this.from.now

[oVo]

Don't lie to me. Mexico doesn't love the drug culture
or the violence and corruption associated with it.

There are criminal elements in all cultures that are not
condoned or followed by others.

You are mistaken in the first paragraph.

How can I explain it...

1. Drug lords and drug pushers they all came from poverty, they rose quite quickly so they never become sophisticated or anything, they like the same shitty music, they like shitty beer, they like shitty cars priced high, the only thing they had good taste on is in women's bodies. So poor people relate to them, they see them as semi gods, who against all odds took all they wanted from this life.

2. Music: ranchero music "evolved" to become only stories about capos and their life style, mentioning power of the guns and how they have the cops in their pocket and all that shit. Music to which poor people relates.

3. Money, they buy everyone, and they give parties and gifts and churches for little communities, they are closer to the people than the government, who only takes from them.

And much more points.


Only lately that violence has escalated we have started to see more public dislike from the middle class, in the past the drug business was seen as a good thing because it brought a looooot of money to a community, in the form of jobs and lot of buying power in local commerce.

Did you get this idea from watching movies? The Mexicans I know and places south of the border I've visited don't share that view. There are only a few community positives one might perceive from the drug business in Mexico and those are far overwhelmed by the negatives.

[nietzsche]

Did you get this idea from watching movies? The Mexicans I know and places south of the border I've visited don't share that view. There are only a few community positives one might perceive from the drug business in Mexico and those are far overwhelmed by the negatives.

Maybe your n is too small.

There are over 100million Mexicans and the majority lives in poverty, and I don't have the number but I'd venture to say that 50% do not pay taxes. People who frowned upon the drug business, up until the last 6 years, were normally middle class citizens, those who didn't like their music, weren't business men, and even in the middle class (I went to a paid university and the majority of people I met were upper middle class) there where those who idolized the life of the capos.

I lived that reality, spending all my summers in a small town, I met and played with all those kids that didn't have much, and by when I was 18, they were all in the business, they did pretty well for a time, until they went to jail, were killed.. Were they dishonest when kids, did they have another choice? I don't think so, I believe they parents put them up to that life.

Some, when I ran into them when they were in their top acted very proud, like saying "remember when I didn't even have a glove to play and I borrowed one of yours?, well if you want i can buy you 100 gloves right now". A few after getting out of jail sort of lower their head when they see me, but then, a couple of years after, they act normal.

It's people that don't know any better, they didn't have many choices. (Enter the Americas here, who, trained to think you can be anyone and actually having the options, would contradict me).

[Woodruff]

first.off...sorry.my.space.bar.is.broken.on.this.laptop.

it.sucks.that-You may select 1 option...as.i.would.chose.a.bunch...

i.turely.believe.A person is nothing without his word.
as.well.as. Everyone tells white lies, but i wouldn't lie for something that's actually important.
as.well.asI like being honest as much as possible, but I'll fib if the circumstances really call for it.
being.a.realestate.agent... I don't want the social stigma associated with dishonesty.is.100%.accurate
***this.is.the.one.part.i.totally.disagree.with.. ***It's only cheating if you get caught. =soNOTtrue***
It's not a lie if you believe it.

Your spacebar started working.

[Woodruff]

But, Woodruff, what about when the customer buys your product, enjoys it for some time and is then informed that there was a better product on the market? The 'lie by omission' will be uncovered and they will be distraught.

It's not a salesman's job to sell someone else's product. This isn't remotely comparable to the example of the wife.

[huamulan]

I'd expect a salesman not to con me into buying an inferior product. They should be up-front about their own product's limitations if we're all going to live by honesty.

[GeneralMao]

I lied about my lying in this poll.

[Woodruff]

I'd expect a salesman not to con me into buying an inferior product.

In an ideal world, I would hope that would be true. In the real world, this simply doesn't make basic sense.

[jimboston]

I sometimes lie by ommission and I'll tell white lies. My view on lying is one of getting caught. If there is a risk that I'll get caught if I lie, I don't lie. I try to take a longer term view of things.

Is lying by ommission the same as lying?

If I am in sales and I compare my product X to my competitors product Y.

Through competitive research and analysis, I may know my competitor has a better product... or at least some features of his may be better than mine.

When I go on a Sales Call and a customer asks me to explain "why is your product a better choice?"

I don't outright lie... but will focus on the positive attributes of my offering... or talk more about the features where I have an advantage... make those features seem more important than the other features where I don't have an advantage.

I won't outright lie about the facts... but I may not tell the customer EVERYTHING I know.

Is this lying?

I would say in THAT PARTICULAR instance, it is not a lie because the customer explicitly asked you why your product was a better choice. They did not ask you to compare the two product (in which case your response would be lying, in my opinion).

A customer asking why my product is better is the same as asking me to compare mine to my competition. Of course I will focus on the Pro's of my offering and the Con's of my competitor. However, as a good salesperson it's my job to know both the strengths and weaknesses of my competition. So I choose to share only some of what I know.

[jimboston]

But, Woodruff, what about when the customer buys your product, enjoys it for some time and is then informed that there was a better product on the market? The 'lie by omission' will be uncovered and they will be distraught. SHAMALAMALAM! He kicks into touch and that's the final whistle!

i.am.happy.to.talk.like.this.from.now

There is always a better product.

To some degree anyway.

1) Sometimes "better" is subjective.

2) You often have to balance cost... the better product may cost more.

However... from the salesperson perspective. I can't worry about what you may of may not find out 2 years from now. I need to make the sale in order to feed my family. I will worry about the future sale at a future date.

That's not to say that I don't care about long term customer relationships. I do. These are imperitive to most salespeople. However... you have to make the first sale and gain the customer before you can worry about keeping him.

[jimboston]

Criminality and dishonesty are two different things.

Both, however, refer to the breaking of moral codes that have gathered just as many cobwebs as the idea of 'tradition'. Legality, honesty and tradition are for old people who are too tired to run the race any more.

I'd expect a salesman not to con me into buying an inferior product. They should be up-front about their own product's limitations if we're all going to live by honesty.

You seem to contradict yourself.

Being up front about limitations is fine. If a customer asks me a question I answer it honestly. I don't ask questions for a customer, unless I know th answer and it shows my product in a positive light.

Example: Maintenance Cost on a Car

This is a big factor in the overall cost of owning a car. Should the dealership tell you in advance what typical maintenance period nd maintenance servces are due for the first 5years... and should they provide those costs???

I have asked car salesmen about this and never gotten a straight answer... so what I hd to do was go to the service manager. How many customers factor that into their decision??? Is the dealership "Lying" by not having this info ready?

[huamulan]

Choosing not to supply that information to the consumer? If they know something bad that they could tell you, but choose not to tell you when you ask, the principle is the same.