ObamaCare - exchanges ,report your states options!

[Phatscotty]

[Woodruff]

This is an EXCELLENT example of the strategy that SOME FEW conservatives are attempting to use within the public school system. Thank you.

[Frigidus]

I agree with the quote. What it has to do with health care I'm not entirely sure.

[Phatscotty]

It shouldn't have anything to do with healthcare, except for people started one day claiming that healthcare is a right, and that somehow gives them to right to infringe on everyone else's rights and property....

[PLAYER57832]

And I really have had the impression that 2dimes is a social conservative, but that he tends toward not imposing those social views on others. That doesn't make him not socially conservative, merely of the sort who doesn't want to force everyone else to live that way. I certainly could be wrong about that, of course...which was why I suggested in my post that I could be wrong about it.

I would disagree strongly with the idea that not wanting to force other people is part of social conservativism.

As a point of fact.. though Nightstrike, Phattscotty and such like to paint me otherwise, I am personally very conservative. For example, I decided I would not have an abortion unless it were a life/death issue or the child were already essentially gone. HOWEVER, I strongly support the legal right for women to make those choices on their own, don't feel I have any right to make that choice for anyone else.

Similarly, I would not be happy to have my boys be homosexual. However, I know that having a homosexual neighbor is not going to harm them in and of itself. (whether they are a bad neighbor or not has nothing to do with their homosexuality).

by your token, I would, then be socially conservative. However, I am not. I believe in tolerance. The epitome of social conservativism is that you believe how other people act impact society to such an extent that you do have a right to dictate their behavior. Liberals and moderates tend to see individual ability to decide as paramount and not generally harmful to society.

(the very extreme socially left may actually advocate promoting what we would call "altnerative lifestyles; the extreme right is pretty close to what Nightstrike and Phattscotty have each said on certain issue, though neither is exterme on all social issues.)

[PLAYER57832]

It shouldn't have anything to do with healthcare, except for people started one day claiming that healthcare is a right, and that somehow gives them to right to infringe on everyone else's rights and property....

No more than saying that preserving open and navigable waterways and clean air infringes upon everyone else's property rights.

[Juan_Bottom]

How do you know that healthcare isn't a right?
You weren't born with a voting ballot in your hand either.

[Phatscotty]

How do you know that healthcare isn't a right?
You weren't born with a voting ballot in your hand either.

Because it can't be a right. For healthcare to exist, you have to have wealth. If all the money is taken out or unavailable for healthcare in a certain area, how could it possibly be a right? Not to mention, if you have a right to healthcare, then that means you lay a claim on a doctor to work for you for free, for the hospital to provide and expand it's capacity for free, that a doctor or a nurse cannot quit their job or go on strike, for drug companies to research and develope new drugs for free, since the patient having money does not make any difference on whether the healthcare would be provided if it was a right. You keep claiming that healthcare is a right, but that could only come close to happening if the government completely took over healthcare. Can you at least agree with this last statement?

Healthcare is a privilege, and a product. It's not a right simply based on the fact that someone else has to give it to you. The only way healthcare can be a right, is if you are a healthcare expert and practicing on yourself.

[Phatscotty]

It shouldn't have anything to do with healthcare, except for people started one day claiming that healthcare is a right, and that somehow gives them to right to infringe on everyone else's rights and property....

No more than saying that preserving open and navigable waterways and clean air infringes upon everyone else's property rights.

And how are those "rights" protected when a volcano erupts????????????????????????????????

[Juan_Bottom]

You need wealth to buy a gun, yet you have the right to bear arms.

[Phatscotty]

You need wealth to buy a gun, yet you have the right to bear arms.

but you are not forced to buy one.....nor are you fined if you don't have one....

cmon man

[Juan_Bottom]

You need wealth to buy a gun, yet you have the right to bear arms.

but you are not forced to buy one.....nor are you fined if you don't have one....

cmon man

Yeah but none of this is to say that Healthcare is more or less a legitimate "right." You haven't shown what the criteria is to determine a right. I'm just poking and prodding here.

I fail to understand how this bill is trampling on some other "right" that is more.... more... uh... more important than the right to life.

I guess my main point was going to be that every right that we claim to enjoy as Americans was taken; none of it was given to us before 1776. Women didn't even have the right to vote until recently. How do you know that you're not just stuck in the dark ages. Ya know?

[Lootifer]

It shouldn't have anything to do with healthcare, except for people started one day claiming that healthcare is a right, and that somehow gives them to right to infringe on everyone else's rights and property....

Dunno about 'merica but the rest of the world tends to see healthcare as a universal right.

And to me, rightly so; along with education.

[PLAYER57832]

It shouldn't have anything to do with healthcare, except for people started one day claiming that healthcare is a right, and that somehow gives them to right to infringe on everyone else's rights and property....

No more than saying that preserving open and navigable waterways and clean air infringes upon everyone else's property rights.

And how are those "rights" protected when a volcano erupts????????????????????????????????

You are under the impression that keeping navigable waterways open causes volcanoes to erupt now, too?

Healthcare is a right because people have a right to exist. HOWEVER, it is not an unlimited right. That is where you are getting confused.

See, people have a right to food, water, air. However, while we can say that people have a right to enough food to keep themselves alive and well, no one has a right to be a glutton.

With healthcare, the question is not whether we have a right to healthcare. That IS given-- even if the only "healthcare" we get is bark tea and cold water. The question is how much healthcare people have a right to access.

Right now, limits are being decided almost entirely by groups of insurance company executives looking to keep their corporations profitable. (As a part of this system there is a group of doctors and other folks elected by their professional societies to determine "fair costs") It is, to a lessor extent, decided by administrators of hospitals and even less by individual doctors.

Very far down that list is the idea of science and effectiveness. Granted, insurers do pay attention to statistics on effectiveness, BUT... the profit equation really does not distinguish between treating someone and making them better and thus not needing care or someone who just dies. If anything, the "system" is somewhat weighted against making people truly healthy. Instead, you want them moderately ill for a long period of time.. or to just die off. (in both cases, money is made).

This system did not get to be so terrible because the people involved are evil or terrible, but because when money is your focus.. money IS your focus and money could care less about individual people or their needs.

We need a system that puts the focus back on PEOPLE and what PEOPLE need. Vaccinations are great. They keep kids (in some cases, adults, too) from getting sick for a relatively low cost. Healing broken bones, cleft lips, appendicitis, etc... all are absolutely cost effective.

Curing cancer? Major heart disease? Major multiple traumas? Those terms can cover anything from very curable, even if somewhat expensive, problems that, if treated, result in a fully functional person To.. spending millions on someone who is not going to recover, is in constant pain and for whom "treatment" is essentially extending death, not healing.

Humans are capable of distinguishing and deciding those limits.

The problem with most of your arguments is that you want to pretend their are no limits. You don't want to deal with the sticky and difficult issues, so you go to the draconian "no one has any rights" or claims that "the government is controlling everything... wrongly". You deny that we already ARE in a system of limits, but limits that often make little sense, are not explained by anyone and seem far to arbitrary for most people's satisfaction.

Most of us don't mind that an executive "on the hill" gets to live in a nicer house with a pool. We may not think the system is truly "fair", but, well "fair" is for kindergarteners. Its reasonable.

HOWEVER, when you start saying that only the kids of millionaires get to have operations, other people can only see a doctor if they are willing to do without their house.. etc. Then people do complain.

You want to pretend that the goverment system will create that, when, in truth, evidence shows that insurance companies and privatization of healthcare entirely are what cause those problems to exist.

[Phatscotty]

It shouldn't have anything to do with healthcare, except for people started one day claiming that healthcare is a right, and that somehow gives them to right to infringe on everyone else's rights and property....

Dunno about 'merica but the rest of the world tends to see healthcare as a universal right.

And to me, rightly so; along with education.

You should know America is a free country, and not enslaved to copy what the rest of the world thinks. In fact, we have a long history of exactly the opposite, and it's what we are most proud of.

[PLAYER57832]

How do you know that healthcare isn't a right?
You weren't born with a voting ballot in your hand either.

Because it can't be a right. For healthcare to exist, you have to have wealth.

This is true for everything you consider to be a right as well.

[PLAYER57832]

It shouldn't have anything to do with healthcare, except for people started one day claiming that healthcare is a right, and that somehow gives them to right to infringe on everyone else's rights and property....

Dunno about 'merica but the rest of the world tends to see healthcare as a universal right.

And to me, rightly so; along with education.

You should know America is a free country, and not enslaved to copy what the rest of the world thinks. In fact, we have a long history of exactly the opposite, and it's what we are most proud of.

LOL LOL LOL LOL
I love America, but the idea that only Americans are free is just wrong.

[Phatscotty]

It shouldn't have anything to do with healthcare, except for people started one day claiming that healthcare is a right, and that somehow gives them to right to infringe on everyone else's rights and property....

No more than saying that preserving open and navigable waterways and clean air infringes upon everyone else's property rights.

And how are those "rights" protected when a volcano erupts????????????????????????????????

You are under the impression that keeping navigable waterways open causes volcanoes to erupt now, too?

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, you might want to apply the volcano erupting example to your clean air example.....

That would make the most sense

[Phatscotty]

How do you know that healthcare isn't a right?
You weren't born with a voting ballot in your hand either.

Because it can't be a right. For healthcare to exist, you have to have wealth.

This is true for everything you consider to be a right as well.

no it is not!!!!!!!! Not even close! Do I need wealth to be born?

[Lootifer]

America is a great nation for many many things. And if I was an American I would be very proud of some of it's incredible attributes.

Healthcare and Education are not two of such attributes; if I was an American I would be embarrassed.

[Symmetry]

It shouldn't have anything to do with healthcare, except for people started one day claiming that healthcare is a right, and that somehow gives them to right to infringe on everyone else's rights and property....

Dunno about 'merica but the rest of the world tends to see healthcare as a universal right.

And to me, rightly so; along with education.

You should know America is a free country, and not enslaved to copy what the rest of the world thinks. In fact, we have a long history of exactly the opposite, and it's what we are most proud of.

Except that you think your president is a tyrant, don't forget your doublespeak Scotty. Room 101 for you if you keep this up.

[PLAYER57832]

How do you know that healthcare isn't a right?
You weren't born with a voting ballot in your hand either.

Because it can't be a right. For healthcare to exist, you have to have wealth.

This is true for everything you consider to be a right as well.

no it is not!!!!!!!! Not even close! Do I need wealth to be born?

Yes.

AND healthcare

[Juan_Bottom]

This is true for everything you consider to be a right as well.

lololololololololol

I was gonna pick his statement apart but I thought naw man forget it YO homes to bel air.

[Lootifer]

How do you know that healthcare isn't a right?
You weren't born with a voting ballot in your hand either.

Because it can't be a right. For healthcare to exist, you have to have wealth.

This is true for everything you consider to be a right as well.

no it is not!!!!!!!! Not even close! Do I need wealth to be born?

[deleted - emotive argument]

Apologies.

[Phatscotty]

America is a great nation for many many things. And if I was an American I would be very proud of some of it's incredible attributes.

Healthcare and Education are not two of such attributes; if I was an American I would be embarrassed.

we are embarrassed, about what has happened to our education and healthcare system since the government started interfering over the last 50 years. Before gov't interference, we were at the top, if not close to it.

The decline in both sectors started at the exact same time the increase in government interference started dominating both sectors.