jesus

[paranoid-android]

did u just say

what do you mean?


















man, i hate you, you twat.

[Syzygy]

I have a brilliant idea, call it divine inspiration.

Talk about religion in a religious forum!

Like it's actaully going to happen though.

Well, I think that could be one of the better revisions to this site. Until then, we're all stuck with each other in the public forums.

*Sings*

I love you, you love me.
I don't love Jesus, he's not for me.
But if guys love him, then that's cool.
Won't you invite me for Easter too?

Good thing I don't write songs. Apologies to barney.

[Major Henderson]

Me and z19z4 are like the only christians on this site???

[The Gunslinger]

i go back and forth between agnostic and atheist.

[Numia Kereru]

I never realised Jesus was black

Maybe I will become a Christian, if that's the case!

[2dimes]

I don't think race or color is an issue but I bet that's closer than the usual dipictions of him, Catholic/latterdaysaint ones.

[Numia Kereru]

I don't think race or color is an issue but I bet that's closer than the usual dipictions of him, Catholic/latterdaysaint ones.

That's really big of you, but if he was actually black and most Christian groups chose to portray him as white for two millenia, then I think race and color play a larger part in it than can be ignored.

[2dimes]

I doubt they started using them statues two thousand years ago.

Anyone that needs to make a jewish guy into an anglophone might be missing some finer points of the bigger picture of what he came here for.

[jay_a2j]

He is a Nazarene, a Jew. Olive color skin (not white nor black).

[Numia Kereru]

I doubt they started using them statues two thousand years ago.

Yeah true, I doubt they did too

[2dimes]

I doubt they started using them statues two thousand years ago.

Yeah true, I doubt they did too

So I would suspect they are kind of like my statues of Jay. Quite nice but possibly inaccurate. Though we know he's an aboriginal Australian.

[Numia Kereru]

True, true.

I wonder if there ever was any painting or statue or carving created that depicted the true likeness.

[2dimes]

I doubt it, his physical form prebably wasn't very apealing and the people that would have liked him enough to make one may have been busy at the time.

[luns101]

Well if you think it's good, then IMO the atheists should gain their own area as well. But in all honesty, do you not like having these spirited debates?

Absolutely. Everybody (not just the Christians & Atheists) should get their own area. And yes...I do enjoy a debate here and there.

My main disappointment here is that so many just simply discount the Christian worldview out of hand that it's hard to have a decent debate. You can't really argue with someone who believes they are intellectually superior to you simply because of their position. I've sat through the public education drumbeat of "there is no God". I bought into that when I was younger, but not now.

Later, I endured the university lectures of professors who intentionally tried to mischaracterize and redefine Christianity as a religion bent on forced conversion. I kind of wrote it off as a bunch of bitter wackos who just had an axe to grind because of a bad religious experience. Now that I've read posts here I can see how dangerous their ranting has become. The constant repetition of anti-God rhetoric in the classroom is finally coming to fruition, and I see it here almost every day.

Go to the Flame Wars and read the Creationists thread. Some of the statements there are so outlandish I wonder if they were just said out of spite or jest. (Yes, I realize the Flame Wars has a different standard).

True Christianity is being able to care for those who are sick, hurting, or extremely poor in order to show the love of Christ. When I (or others) try to talk about such things here, it usually gets twisted around and another round of false accusations gets hurled. It really would be cool to just talk about ways to help other people in this world.

[paranoid-android]

Well if you think it's good, then IMO the atheists should gain their own area as well. But in all honesty, do you not like having these spirited debates?

Absolutely. Everybody (not just the Christians & Atheists) should get their own area. And yes...I do enjoy a debate here and there.

My main disappointment here is that so many just simply discount the Christian worldview out of hand that it's hard to have a decent debate. You can't really argue with someone who believes they are intellectually superior to you simply because of their position. I've sat through the public education drumbeat of "there is no God". I bought into that when I was younger, but not now.

Later, I endured the university lectures of professors who intentionally tried to mischaracterize and redefine Christianity as a religion bent on forced conversion. I kind of wrote it off as a bunch of bitter wackos who just had an axe to grind because of a bad religious experience. Now that I've read posts here I can see how dangerous their ranting has become. The constant repetition of anti-God rhetoric in the classroom is finally coming to fruition, and I see it here almost every day.

Go to the Flame Wars and read the Creationists thread. Some of the statements there are so outlandish I wonder if they were just said out of spite or jest. (Yes, I realize the Flame Wars has a different standard).

True Christianity is being able to care for those who are sick, hurting, or extremely poor in order to show the love of Christ. When I (or others) try to talk about such things here, it usually gets twisted around and another round of false accusations gets hurled. It really would be cool to just talk about ways to help other people in this world.

Good persuasion luns, I think you are the first Christian on this site that has made me think.

I used to be a practicing Christian, but I hit a point in my life where I did some serious thinking, and I came to the conclusion that there was no god. I found that I was an Atheist. I've been on both sides of this debate, so I can see your point.

However, this does not change the fact that I feel strongly about all of this. I'm sure you do too. These people ranting in classrooms about Christianity being about forced conversion may have some merit sometimes; I've ran into people like that. However, there are ignorant people on both sides of this debate. I'm sure you know that.

In all honesty, it would be nice if we could all keep our views and see eye to eye. However, both you and I know that this can never be. We can only hope to educate people without spreading hate. You may see me as an enemy for telling people there is no god. I don't wish to be one though, I am only showing my views to other people. Let other people think what they will, I am comfortable with where I am and with what I believe in.

That being said, there are dangerous people out there, but you cannot paint the entire atheist community with the same brush, just as the atheists have no right to paint all Christians with the same brush. However, we will always have people like that, on either side, and they are the dangerous ones, the uninformed ones, the ignorant ones, which truly will cause problems for either cause as a whole.

We can do nothing about them, for they will always be there, but we can counteract their poison through education of both views.

[Backglass]

True Christianity is being able to care for those who are sick, hurting, or extremely poor in order to show the love of Christ. When I (or others) try to talk about such things here, it usually gets twisted around and another round of false accusations gets hurled. It really would be cool to just talk about ways to help other people in this world.

Your statements come with the subtle notion that somehow only christians are doing these things (and ALL christians). If thats really what you want to talk about, great...but why must religion be brought into the mix to do so? You call it "true christianity", I just call it "humanity".

One does not need to believe in supernatural beings to "care for those who are sick, hurting or extremely poor".

[luns101]

I used to be a practicing Christian, but I hit a point in my life where I did some serious thinking, and I came to the conclusion that there was no god. I found that I was an Atheist. I've been on both sides of this debate, so I can see your point.

Yeah, looks like we both switched paths. For me it was the opposite. I was about 21 when I made the decision to accept Christ. I can remember making many of the arguments I've heard here, but after doing some thinking/studying of my own, I came to the conclusion that it really wasn't my intellect that needed to be convinced, but rather my will being changed.

You may see me as an enemy for telling people there is no god. I don't wish to be one though, I am only showing my views to other people. Let other people think what they will, I am comfortable with where I am and with what I believe in.

Well personally, I do not see you as an enemy. The Bible describes you and me as souls that need to be saved. Since we have offended a holy God who will not tolerate sin, there will be a future judgement for that sin. God is merciful and provided the payment for that sin so that we can avoid that judgement (through Christ's death on the cross). But the payment must be accepted in order to be valid.

In my experience reading posts here, I believe that's the part that people have the greatest difficulty accepting - a judgement. Nobody likes being told that they will be accountable for the things they've done. Would you agree that this is probably the crux of the whole matter?

That being said, there are dangerous people out there, but you cannot paint the entire atheist community with the same brush, just as the atheists have no right to paint all Christians with the same brush. However, we will always have people like that, on either side, and they are the dangerous ones, the uninformed ones, the ignorant ones, which truly will cause problems for either cause as a whole.

We can do nothing about them, for they will always be there, but we can counteract their poison through education of both views.

Yeah, this is probably the reason I get along with Leatnic on this site. He's an atheist as well, but we've been buddies for quite some time. He can argue his points while still being respectful. Too bad he doesn't like to post here because he's really a bright person and an avid reader.

My real fear is that a constant repetition of Darwinianism (or other similar worldviews) produces a mindset among people that automatically discounts anything a Christian might offer on a variety of subjects. Anyway, it's been nice reading your thoughts.

[luns101]

Your statements come with the subtle notion that somehow only christians are doing these things (and ALL christians). If thats really what you want to talk about, great...but why must religion be brought into the mix to do so? You call it "true christianity", I just call it "humanity".

Well, then I'll be more direct. Since I believe the Bible to be true, it describes all men (even Christians) as sinners by nature. Although you and I might have the intention of being moral, it is natural for us to want to be self-serving without considering our fellow man. The older I get, I see more of this sin nature in myself and struggle against it (with the help of Christ).

A friend of mine showed me an article on this idea of "micro-loans". Have you heard about it? It's pretty cool. Doesn't matter if you're Christian or not (although Christians seem to be more involved in it). Using a micro-loan organization, you can send a small amount of $$ to someone in a 3rd world country. They take that $$ and invest it in something to start a business within their village/community. You are helping them provide for themselves....not a hand-out. If you (or anyone else) want, I'll ask him for more information and see if I can't post more about it.

When are you going to post a picture of your pinball collection?

[luns101]

i go back and forth between agnostic and atheist.

Sounds like you're having a Susannah Dean complex, sugar!



You're going to have to start a DARK TOWER thread sometime. It seems like Stephen King and beer are the two things I have in common with skeptics on this site.

[Tommy Hobbes]

I would just like to say that luns is a pretty cool cat. What I don't understand is how both he and jay can both belong to the same religion.

I have never been able to get my mind around the concept of converting to christianity, especially not at 21. It seems like starting to believe in ghosts, or something. Just wondering if you could explain a bit.

[CrazyAnglican]

That being said, there are dangerous people out there, but you cannot paint the entire atheist community with the same brush, just as the atheists have no right to paint all Christians with the same brush. However, we will always have people like that, on either side, and they are the dangerous ones, the uninformed ones, the ignorant ones, which truly will cause problems for either cause as a whole.

We can do nothing about them, for they will always be there, but we can counteract their poison through education of both views.

Well spoken. Disagreement is inevitable; Chastisment is a choice. I do think that we can work toward diffusing the anymosity. Simply pming those that agree with us, but aren't repectful of others, and reminding them that it's a public forum (everybody's got a right to their own opinions without being harrassed about them). If both sides police themselves, things should get better.

[paranoid-android]

The only reason that Darwinism and Co. are taught, seen in the news media etc. is that it's a physical way of explaining the world, and most people need that.

Christians, on the other, rely on faith, and therefore don't need a physical reason for the things around us. This was the reason that I left Christianity, because it felt that science had a much more plausible explanation for the world around me than the Bible. The Bible always left me asking "Why?"

That being said, it doesn't mean that my entire time in the church wasn't wasted. The Church, while not fulfilling me spiritually, nor explaining the world around me, gave me some of the best values of my life. I always listen to other people, I care about others, and I feel that the injustice of the world can be fixed if people care. Just because I'm not a member of the church does not make me a cold bastard, as some would think.

Out of curiousity luns, what made you change from atheism to Christianity?

[got tonkaed]

i dont want to put words in luns mouth of course....but i think luns reached a point where he wanted his religious experience to be something other than merely an intellecutal pursuit. From their i think he began to percieve religious experience as a matter of will (which i suppose could loosely be interpreted as having a faith in something other than the merely experiential). From there i would assume it was a lot of crossing t's and dotting I's because this type of lens through which one views religion allows for a strong connection.

[unriggable]

You can't be sure that everything in the Bible is true.

Thats called faith. I have faith that it is. I believe it is.

Exactly. Doesn't necessarily make it true.

[luns101]

I would just like to say that luns is a pretty cool cat.

The $50.00 I owe you is on it's way.

What I don't understand is how both he and jay can both belong to the same religion.

Especially since Jay's a Mets fan (I think). Hmmm, actually that might be proof that God really is all-loving and kind.

I have never been able to get my mind around the concept of converting to christianity, especially not at 21. It seems like starting to believe in ghosts, or something.

Which is why I think it's a matter more of someone's will being changed than their intellect being convinced. I would describe my conversion as more of a switch from one faith to another. It definitely isn't like believing in ghosts, or monsters (or even that the Cubs might one day win the World Series...lol), but I would describe it as more of a reasonable faith. We put our faith in many things each day...when you sit on a chair you have faith that it won't break and fall apart. It's possible it might, but it's reasonable to put your faith in it holding you up while you sit.

Just wondering if you could explain a bit.

I doubt I'm going to do this justice as I'm tired, but here goes: I was raised as a Christian. My dad was a hypocrital pastor. He slept with a lot of women and kicked the crap out of a lot of people. But he could quote the scriptures frontward and backwards. Eventually he divorced my mom and left us when we presented proof of his actions. I saw a lot of Christians behave like this besides him, it wasn't just his hypocrisy.

From that point, I saw Christians as a bunch of self-righteous twits. They told stories of judgement in order to scare people into giving $$ to church, which they just used to better themselves. Also, they made up the whole concept of hell to scare people/societies into obeying the "Church" so they could exert more power over people. And who were these people on TV saying "PRAISE THE LAWD"!! with bad haircuts and massive amounts of mascara?

I was 19, serving in the USMC in Okinawa, Japan. The sergeant who was inspecting my room noticed a Bible on my shelf. (The chaplain gives them to all servicemen). He asked me if I believed in the Bible and I told him to GFY! However, he didn't back down and issued a challenge to me...if the Bible is not true then it should be easy to discredit it. "OK, I'll bring you your proof you self-righteous SOB and you'll owe me a night out with the who*e of my choice" [I actually could have been brought up on charges for talking to him like that, but thank God he was cool].

I set out to discredit the Bible, God, Christianity. What I found over the course of researching was that it was actually less of a leap of faith to believe in God than natural selection/spontaneous generation/adaptation. The Bible had more credibility than many of the works of skeptics I had admired up to that point. I've posted many responses in other threads and you can read them for yourself. Like I said, I switched faiths. The transition was not easy. The more things I found that conflicted with my presupposition that the Bible was bogus...the more pissed off I would become. What ticked me off the most was the idea that I would be judged for what the Bible described as "sin" (acts which offended God).

Luke was the most influential book of the Bible for me, because it was written by a physician/historian, and not someone who just accepted things without investigation. Finally, I had to admit to myself that what was really making me angry is that I didn't want to believe that I would one day be accountable for my acts. It didn't matter that others were being hypocrites...I would be responsible to Jesus Christ for my actions, not someone else. I came to the realization that God did exist, I had done bad things, but that God provided a way out of that judgement through the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ on my behalf. I accepted that for myself personally through a prayer to Him one night at Camp Pendleton, California. (I had been transferred there by this time).

No heavenly trumpets or angelic voices, sorry! But since then I have found I have the capacity to care & help others. I never thought I had that inside me before. My old philosophy was "do unto others before they can do it to you", now it's been replaced with an attitude of service to others in order to show them how much God loves them as well.

I'll still do stupid hypocritical stuff. You'll probably witness it yourself on this site from time to time. But the difference now is that I'm not proud of it and repent (admit I'm wrong and try to change). Sorry this is so long, but thanks for taking the time to read it.