[Official] D&D Mafia ~ Endgame

[DoomYoshi]

Ever notice that there isn't anything in the rules that says a horse can't climb a rope? Well, there isn't, so I am going to continue trying to do this.

Theory Question:
Is there an advantage in fakeclaiming (not counting the Chaotic Evil SK?)

[MoB Deadly]

Ever notice that there isn't anything in the rules that says a horse can't climb a rope? Well, there isn't, so I am going to continue trying to do this.

Theory Question:
Is there an advantage in fakeclaiming (not counting the Chaotic Evil SK?)

I was thinking about this as well. The way I am thinking is that most "divisions" probably have mostly equal number of players. I am thinking there is probably more Good than Evil players, because probably there will be more Evil doing killing than Good?

But I think the Neutrals will add a nice element to the later stages of the game, and I don't think they really have to fake claim.
Neutal Lawful
Neutral Neutral
Neutral Chaotic

The biggest curveballs is the
Good Chaotic
Evil Lawful

And of course everyone has to fear the Evil Chaotic. That Role must have been fun to make

And since there are so many alignments, it will be very hard to catch people in lies. I feel like everyone has more freedom to make stuff up. I haven't been so excited for a complex mafia ever since Mr. Squirrels Adventurer unfinished mafia

[MoB Deadly]

As for the next step...... I am not sure who to look at. As long as we don't go back to joke stage im fine.

I think with 19 players we can afford another claim. Hopefully nothing as critical as the watcher though, I feel bad about that one. I kind of don't want to leave him on an island with the only claim on the table. Especially since we are most certainly not lynching him.

[Rodion]

There are 5 posts between Greg's post that was considered scummy by Safari and Safari's post that called Greg out. None of those 5 players (Commander, Betiko, Yoshi, Strike and MoB) originally took issue with what Greg had said. After Safari made his post, Commander, Yoshi and Strike stuck to their guns and did not vote (Commander's case is a bit more borderline as he did suggest Greg to claim, but it seemed more like a suggestion considering the circumstances of the game rather than his own opinion on Greg's scumminess). Betiko and MoB, however, joined the wagon. Given how the game has just started and there are not many leads to go off of, the opportunism of voting Greg when a wagon was developing (Betiko) or had already developed (MoB) is so far the scummiest thing of the game imho.

Just so we are clear, the problem here is not "joining Greg's wagon", but rather "not seeing a problem with what Greg had said and then proceeding to change their respective minds and vote Greg".

Granted, I've realized as of today that the same thing applies to TFO (while he did not post before Safari's vote, he did admit he had read Greg's post and failed to find it scummy).

Tiebreaking, MoB gets points for having tried harder to advance the game and TFO's confession seems genuine (he did not have to say a thing if he didn't want to), so I'll vote Betiko as the best candidate for a second D1 claim.

Do realize, however, that there is a really tricky aspect of my case I have just decided to erase as it would effectively make my case fail (if you see it, try not to spoil it right away - I don't actually mind the case failing, but I wouldn't want to see the game stop again, so let's go with that for a while). Hope this can spur some discussion.

[Rodion]

Theory Question:
Is there an advantage in fakeclaiming (not counting the Chaotic Evil SK?)

I was going to answer that, but then it lead me to another question.

Edoc, assume we have a single Chaotic Evil SK. Assume he dies. If Law loses to Chaos and Good loses to Evil, can we have a "Chaotic Evil" win anyway?

[betiko]

First, rodion, i think i made it pretty clear in my previous posts that I was going to go trigger happy on the first wagon formed, even for completely random reasons because I wanted at least a claim to start from somewhere. For me saf's reason to attack greg was just random. He just basically said that he would watch paint dry while we get something going on. It s just the kind of reasons that seem perfect for me to get a player from passive to active.

Secondly, I do not see the settings as you guys. For me the evil chaotic are not serial killers, they are plain mafia. It s impossible to kill absolutely everyone but their faction, so they are a bunch and they most certainly communicate together at night.
i do not think any other alignment can do such thing, but it s pure speculation. Neut neuts can win with anyone but evil chaotics, they will be chasing them as they are their unique enemies. Everyone else has multiple enemies, but neut neuts are everyone s allies. The problem is that we have no idea of how many EC we have out there.
I also wonder how edoc had to ballance the game between all factions, i will try to think deeper into that. Probably very few neut neuts; a significant amount of good of all factions and very little evil lawful/neutrals.. Hard to say.

I am rather favourable to get a second claim though.

[gregwolf121]

Ever notice that there isn't anything in the rules that says a horse can't climb a rope? Well, there isn't, so I am going to continue trying to do this.

Theory Question:
Is there an advantage in fakeclaiming (not counting the Chaotic Evil SK?)

i failed to see anything that suggested the chaotic evil was a SK, so why did you say chaotic evil sk?

[DoomYoshi]

Ever notice that there isn't anything in the rules that says a horse can't climb a rope? Well, there isn't, so I am going to continue trying to do this.

Theory Question:
Is there an advantage in fakeclaiming (not counting the Chaotic Evil SK?)

i failed to see anything that suggested the chaotic evil was a SK, so why did you say chaotic evil sk?

Chaotic Evil cannot win with any other party. SK cannot win with any other party. It seems simple, but it is also possible that we have a CE Jester.

[DoomYoshi]

Secondly, I do not see the settings as you guys. For me the evil chaotic are not serial killers, they are plain mafia.

Chaotic Evil cannot win with other Chaotic Evil. Therefore, the faction would have to kill each other off to win. That seems like a stupid mafia.

[DoomYoshi]

Er, I guess it doesn't say that, and I just imagined it. Perhaps they are indeed the mafia.

[Rodion]

Guys, let's not confuse opinions with facts.

From what I understand Chaotic evil will be more like SK/cult. People who cant even win with each other unless they have subjugated the minds of others to join them. Neutral evil and lawful evil sound like they combined probably make up the mafia.

That's probably where people are imagining the C/E SK thing from.

Just to make sure i understood: you can win with players of the same combo as you right? Just asking as in your charts you didn t repeat the same combos (i guess because it was too obvious). Therefore neutral neutrals win with all combos possible except evil/chaotic?
Evil/chaotics can only win with their own alignment, and no one else can win with them. They basically should behave like standard mafia.

Yes alignments can win with their same alignment, and correct on neutral neutral.

That's a fact, so either there is one C/E and he is a SK or there are multiple C/Es and they are mafia.

[MoB Deadly]

Just to make sure everyone is one the same page. I did read Greg's post on my own and didn't find anything scummy about it.
And then Safari pointed out how the post was phrased scummily which I later agreed with.

After that, I was fine with it, I didn't think we were going to get an any "less-random" wagon. I guess if some people spoke up and defended Greg maybe we would have a lead/debate to follow-up on, but instead we got the claim and are back at square 1 again. That is why it is almost jumping back to joke stage

[strike wolf]

Honestly, if there is an SK in this game, I would suspect he has an alternate win condition either on top of or instead of the usual kill everyone else (for an example of an alternate win condition for an SK you can look at my role in Hectic Eclectic Mafia) win condition. As it's particularly difficult for an SK to win under normal conditions in a game this size.

As far as cases go, Rodion's case on Betiko is what he advertised, fairly weak but maybe worth voting for if I can't find anything in my reread or nothing else comes up.

[betiko]

Honestly, if there is an SK in this game, I would suspect he has an alternate win condition either on top of or instead of the usual kill everyone else (for an example of an alternate win condition for an SK you can look at my role in Hectic Eclectic Mafia) win condition. As it's particularly difficult for an SK to win under normal conditions in a game this size.

As far as cases go, Rodion's case on Betiko is what he advertised, fairly weak but maybe worth voting for if I can't find anything in my reread or nothing else comes up.

I might be wrong, but the game already seems hard enough to balance to have to ad an SK on top of that. For me it's multiple town factions (8!!!) vs evil chaotic in the first place, then we ll have to solve our differences between town factions.

[jonty125]

There are 5 posts between Greg's post that was considered scummy by Safari and Safari's post that called Greg out. None of those 5 players (Commander, Betiko, Yoshi, Strike and MoB) originally took issue with what Greg had said. After Safari made his post, Commander, Yoshi and Strike stuck to their guns and did not vote (Commander's case is a bit more borderline as he did suggest Greg to claim, but it seemed more like a suggestion considering the circumstances of the game rather than his own opinion on Greg's scumminess). Betiko and MoB, however, joined the wagon. Given how the game has just started and there are not many leads to go off of, the opportunism of voting Greg when a wagon was developing (Betiko) or had already developed (MoB) is so far the scummiest thing of the game imho.

Just so we are clear, the problem here is not "joining Greg's wagon", but rather "not seeing a problem with what Greg had said and then proceeding to change their respective minds and vote Greg".

Granted, I've realized as of today that the same thing applies to TFO (while he did not post before Safari's vote, he did admit he had read Greg's post and failed to find it scummy).

Tiebreaking, MoB gets points for having tried harder to advance the game and TFO's confession seems genuine (he did not have to say a thing if he didn't want to), so I'll vote Betiko as the best candidate for a second D1 claim.

Do realize, however, that there is a really tricky aspect of my case I have just decided to erase as it would effectively make my case fail (if you see it, try not to spoil it right away - I don't actually mind the case failing, but I wouldn't want to see the game stop again, so let's go with that for a while). Hope this can spur some discussion.

So you post a case, on betiko, vote him, and admit there is a flaw in your logic but aren't willing to share it? FOS Rodion, I don't like it.

[aage]

Survivors can win with mafia. Nobody can win with CE. Ergo, CE is not mafia. Edocsil never confirmed that C/E should behave like mafia, but rather cleverly avoided answering that question. Besides, the mafia godfather will most likely be evil/lawful for flavor purposes and then he won't be able to win with C/E anyways.

[anamainiacks]

Survivors can win with mafia. Nobody can win with CE. Ergo, CE is not mafia. Edocsil never confirmed that C/E should behave like mafia, but rather cleverly avoided answering that question. Besides, the mafia godfather will most likely be evil/lawful for flavor purposes and then he won't be able to win with C/E anyways.

That is true, regarding survivors - which I guess would be our Neutral/Neutral? Perhaps Mafia are all just Evil/Lawful and Evil/Neutral, depending on their abilities, while the SK is Evil/Chaotic. Which could make some sense, with Good being our usual 'Pro-Town', albeit with some infighting, and Evil being all our 'Anti-Town'. I don't know how far we can liken this game to regular mafia games though, and there might not even be clear Pro- and Anti- town factions...

Regarding the betiko case, it feels rather weak. Sometimes I too would skim past a post without anything striking me as particularly odd or suspicious, till someone else points it out. Why would Rodion present the case while being conscious of its loopholes though?

[jonty125]

Why would Rodion present the case while being conscious of its loopholes though?

(if you see it, try not to spoil it right away - I don't actually mind the case failing, but I wouldn't want to see the game stop again, so let's go with that for a while). Hope this can spur some discussion.

Does that answer the question anamainacks?

[rishaed]

Survivors can win with mafia. Nobody can win with CE. Ergo, CE is not mafia. Edocsil never confirmed that C/E should behave like mafia, but rather cleverly avoided answering that question. Besides, the mafia godfather will most likely be evil/lawful for flavor purposes and then he won't be able to win with C/E anyways.

That is true, regarding survivors - which I guess would be our Neutral/Neutral? Perhaps Mafia are all just Evil/Lawful and Evil/Neutral, depending on their abilities, while the SK is Evil/Chaotic. Which could make some sense, with Good being our usual 'Pro-Town', albeit with some infighting, and Evil being all our 'Anti-Town'. I don't know how far we can liken this game to regular mafia games though, and there might not even be clear Pro- and Anti- town factions...

Regarding the betiko case, it feels rather weak. Sometimes I too would skim past a post without anything striking me as particularly odd or suspicious, till someone else points it out. Why would Rodion present the case while being conscious of its loopholes though?

A. Because he was asked to post it.
B. Because its D1, every case is going to be fairly weak. We don't have Night Action results yet, and there is very little posting history for the game. Which pretty well makes a rock solid case fairly impossible, unless someone does a fairly decent sized screw up or slip.
C. A case leading somewhere with said opinions and such generates discussion, which is good all around and avoids stagnancy and inactivity.
You aren't extremely new so I would think that you would know this.... FoS Anamainiacks
fp'd with similar response

[TheForgivenOne]

There are 5 posts between Greg's post that was considered scummy by Safari and Safari's post that called Greg out. None of those 5 players (Commander, Betiko, Yoshi, Strike and MoB) originally took issue with what Greg had said. After Safari made his post, Commander, Yoshi and Strike stuck to their guns and did not vote (Commander's case is a bit more borderline as he did suggest Greg to claim, but it seemed more like a suggestion considering the circumstances of the game rather than his own opinion on Greg's scumminess). Betiko and MoB, however, joined the wagon. Given how the game has just started and there are not many leads to go off of, the opportunism of voting Greg when a wagon was developing (Betiko) or had already developed (MoB) is so far the scummiest thing of the game imho.

Just so we are clear, the problem here is not "joining Greg's wagon", but rather "not seeing a problem with what Greg had said and then proceeding to change their respective minds and vote Greg".

Granted, I've realized as of today that the same thing applies to TFO (while he did not post before Safari's vote, he did admit he had read Greg's post and failed to find it scummy).

Tiebreaking, MoB gets points for having tried harder to advance the game and TFO's confession seems genuine (he did not have to say a thing if he didn't want to), so I'll vote Betiko as the best candidate for a second D1 claim.

Do realize, however, that there is a really tricky aspect of my case I have just decided to erase as it would effectively make my case fail (if you see it, try not to spoil it right away - I don't actually mind the case failing, but I wouldn't want to see the game stop again, so let's go with that for a while). Hope this can spur some discussion.

So you post a case, on betiko, vote him, and admit there is a flaw in your logic but aren't willing to share it? FOS Rodion, I don't like it.

He's simply trying to get the game going. Would you rather have it stall out?

[anamainiacks]

Survivors can win with mafia. Nobody can win with CE. Ergo, CE is not mafia. Edocsil never confirmed that C/E should behave like mafia, but rather cleverly avoided answering that question. Besides, the mafia godfather will most likely be evil/lawful for flavor purposes and then he won't be able to win with C/E anyways.

That is true, regarding survivors - which I guess would be our Neutral/Neutral? Perhaps Mafia are all just Evil/Lawful and Evil/Neutral, depending on their abilities, while the SK is Evil/Chaotic. Which could make some sense, with Good being our usual 'Pro-Town', albeit with some infighting, and Evil being all our 'Anti-Town'. I don't know how far we can liken this game to regular mafia games though, and there might not even be clear Pro- and Anti- town factions...

Regarding the betiko case, it feels rather weak. Sometimes I too would skim past a post without anything striking me as particularly odd or suspicious, till someone else points it out. Why would Rodion present the case while being conscious of its loopholes though?

A. Because he was asked to post it.
B. Because its D1, every case is going to be fairly weak. We don't have Night Action results yet, and there is very little posting history for the game. Which pretty well makes a rock solid case fairly impossible, unless someone does a fairly decent sized screw up or slip.
C. A case leading somewhere with said opinions and such generates discussion, which is good all around and avoids stagnancy and inactivity.
You aren't extremely new so I would think that you would know this.... FoS Anamainiacks
fp'd with similar response

Okay, maybe I didn't phrase myself properly... (and after re-reading my post, yes, it seems like it). I meant, if he were simply posting his case to generate discussion, why not include the loophole of the case as well, since he already knows it? It would still probably fuel as much discussion, if not more. Not that I find it suspicious of him to withhold the information.

[Commander9]

I'll just be honest, nothing has really stood out to me much this game. I was okay with the Gregwolf case as it seemed reasonably solid but wasn't convinced to vote on it and I really don't see anyone on his bandwagon that stood out as scummy.

Pretty much this.

There are 5 posts between Greg's post that was considered scummy by Safari and Safari's post that called Greg out. None of those 5 players (Commander, Betiko, Yoshi, Strike and MoB) originally took issue with what Greg had said. After Safari made his post, Commander, Yoshi and Strike stuck to their guns and did not vote (Commander's case is a bit more borderline as he did suggest Greg to claim, but it seemed more like a suggestion considering the circumstances of the game rather than his own opinion on Greg's scumminess). Betiko and MoB, however, joined the wagon. Given how the game has just started and there are not many leads to go off of, the opportunism of voting Greg when a wagon was developing (Betiko) or had already developed (MoB) is so far the scummiest thing of the game imho.

Just so we are clear, the problem here is not "joining Greg's wagon", but rather "not seeing a problem with what Greg had said and then proceeding to change their respective minds and vote Greg".

Granted, I've realized as of today that the same thing applies to TFO (while he did not post before Safari's vote, he did admit he had read Greg's post and failed to find it scummy).

Tiebreaking, MoB gets points for having tried harder to advance the game and TFO's confession seems genuine (he did not have to say a thing if he didn't want to), so I'll vote Betiko as the best candidate for a second D1 claim.

Do realize, however, that there is a really tricky aspect of my case I have just decided to erase as it would effectively make my case fail (if you see it, try not to spoil it right away - I don't actually mind the case failing, but I wouldn't want to see the game stop again, so let's go with that for a while). Hope this can spur some discussion.

Honestly, I didn't really take it as that much serious offence and while I do disagree with the statement, most people are aware that I tend to be outspoken. And yes, correct, him being at that vote count, I wanted to be sure that people won't hammer before he at least has a chance to claim.

Furthermore, the case of Betiko is super weak - obviously, we don't have anything better, but I'm not going to vote for it either.

Ever notice that there isn't anything in the rules that says a horse can't climb a rope? Well, there isn't, so I am going to continue trying to do this.

Theory Question:
Is there an advantage in fakeclaiming (not counting the Chaotic Evil SK?)

i failed to see anything that suggested the chaotic evil was a SK, so why did you say chaotic evil sk?

Pretty sure Chaotic Evil *will* be either a SK or a Cult member. A mafia is possible, but IMHO, not very likely.

Survivors can win with mafia. Nobody can win with CE. Ergo, CE is not mafia. Edocsil never confirmed that C/E should behave like mafia, but rather cleverly avoided answering that question. Besides, the mafia godfather will most likely be evil/lawful for flavor purposes and then he won't be able to win with C/E anyways.

Agreed.

[Epitaph1]

Survivors can win with mafia. Nobody can win with CE. Ergo, CE is not mafia. Edocsil never confirmed that C/E should behave like mafia, but rather cleverly avoided answering that question. Besides, the mafia godfather will most likely be evil/lawful for flavor purposes and then he won't be able to win with C/E anyways.

That is true, regarding survivors - which I guess would be our Neutral/Neutral? Perhaps Mafia are all just Evil/Lawful and Evil/Neutral, depending on their abilities, while the SK is Evil/Chaotic. Which could make some sense, with Good being our usual 'Pro-Town', albeit with some infighting, and Evil being all our 'Anti-Town'. I don't know how far we can liken this game to regular mafia games though, and there might not even be clear Pro- and Anti- town factions...

Going into this game, I assumed the mafia would be CE. But I guess that doesn't make sense since survivors wouldn't be able to win along with them since CE isn't compatible with anything (unless there are no survivors. . .which I doubt given the game size). I'm leaning SK for CE, although I suppose cult is a possibility as well.

But I don't think the mafia could have both evil/lawful and evil/neutral alignments unless there are two separate mafias. If one mafia faction were to have both alignments, a few town members could theoretically eliminate any mafia members with a certain alignment and win with the remaining members, which would basically be forming a new mafia in the middle of the game.

---

re: Rodion's case on betiko. I didn't find betiko's vote to be particularly scummy but I need to re-read the gregwolf case build up to see if I can spot the loophole.

[betiko]

Ok CE being cult could make sense but i still don t think SK is correct. Unless there are several SKs (no sense) As far as I know there are no survivors, but I agree with ani, if there are some they would be the neut neuts (because they have the easiest win condition, but again if there is just 1 CE it s too easy for them).
I don t know, i see this game a bit like lovecraft mafia where we had tons of factions, but this one being much more simple. Edoc played lovecraft mafia and might have been inspired a bit by it here?)

[MoB Deadly]

Yeah my first impression is that CE could be an SK with an alternate win condition. Maybe has to kill a VIP or a specific group of people
Or a Cult would make sense
Jester could make sense as well