[Official] D&D Mafia ~ Endgame

[DoomYoshi]

Hmm..I'm actually going to FOS Jonty for that remark. Cult has always been evil and the mason recruiter has always been the town equivalent to a cult recruiter. Now edoc has been around long enough to consider any town group faction to be called masons. He would not call them cult. Arggh...I had a very clear thought in my head when I started writing this but I can't seem to get it to come out that way. Anyways, my main point is that TFO has confirmed that cult is antagonistic, I am fosing Jonty based on the possible intentional mislead by suggesting possible protagonistic cult.

Just pointing out that I hadn't said they were evil yet when Jonty made that post.

I said we had a cult, he posted his, I said they were an evil dragon worshipers.

However, I haven't encountered a cult that is considered "Good". So maybe he's trying to make it look like I was mentioning a Mason instead of a Cult.

According to this then, assuming the cultists take on the alignment of the dragon they worship, and assuming edoc stuck to the core 3 books, there is a 60% chance the cult is CE and 40% LE. (Red, black and white dragons are all CE; Blue and green are all LE; those are the main evil dragons).

[DoomYoshi]

As far as Lawful outnumbering Chaotic, I was thinking the opposite for previously stated reasons, I think if one side has cause to out number the other it's chaotic however since chaotic evil cannot work with anyone outside their win condition that it would balance back out.

Now, would cult be lawful or chaotic? I could see arguments for both, I don't believe that cult is as law driven as another player made them out to be.

Hmm..I'm actually going to FOS Jonty for that remark. Cult has always been evil and the mason recruiter has always been the town equivalent to a cult recruiter. Now edoc has been around long enough to consider any town group faction to be called masons. He would not call them cult. Arggh...I had a very clear thought in my head when I started writing this but I can't seem to get it to come out that way. Anyways, my main point is that TFO has confirmed that cult is antagonistic, I am fosing Jonty based on the possible intentional mislead by suggesting possible protagonistic cult.

According to you, chaotic is town (since chaos outnumbers Lawful). If that is the case, why not lynch the "enemy" watcher?

Also, if cult must be ANTI-TOWN, then we know they must be ANTI-CHAOS, with no predilection towards Good or Evil? The Evil evidence comes from TFO? How are you voting jonty based on evidence from one alignment axis using the other alignment axis as your justification?

I mean you can't say: Cultists are anti-town, therefore evil... when evil is not strictly anti-town.

vote strike wolf

[aage]

If there is a cult it must be Chaotic/Evil. The nature of cultees is that they have to kill or convert everyone else in order to win. And they will not rest before they do.
Since cultees cannot win together with a serial killer, there is no chaotic/evil serial killer in this game.

So far so logical. I'm surprised nobody else writes this down, you guys are just speculating with nothing to speculate about. You don't need TFO's confirmation on their intentions. If TFO told us their main goal was world peace I would still hang him for cult alliance.

I originally suspected mafia to be a group of (lawful/neutral) evil aligned roles, since it would allow for more flexibility in case they get decimated early on. 19 players is a bit much for one mafia faction, even with the cult thrown in, and the alignments in the OP allow for no other mafia faction since L/E and N/E can win together and seperate factions rarely can. The introduction of a cult has thrown all my doubt out the window.

But I've had enough of playing the system. The game is designed not to make us kill mafia but to root out the people we prefer to lose.
FoS Rodion for the silly question on antagonism. Of course cultees are bad guys, they always are.
Vote Jonty for actually considering them to be lawful/good. Apparently you didn't take a good hard look at the alignment sheet... was it because you can't win with anyone else anyways?


Fastposted by Doom

Don't give a damn about lawful or chaotic. Evil guys die first. Thus it is decreed. Furthermore, Strike never said Chaos was town, only that there were probably more of them. According to Edoc's opening post, most of us are neutral/good, so I suggest we assume that THEY are town.

[aage]

Fastposted by Doom

Don't give a damn about lawful or chaotic. Evil guys die first. Thus it is decreed. Furthermore, Strike never said Chaos was town, only that there were probably more of them. According to Edoc's opening post, most of us are neutral/good, so I suggest we assume that THEY are town.

ebwop not actually the opening post:

The majority of players would be (neutral, good)

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 7#p4245259

[Nebuchadnezer]

Okay, I had a busy weekend, and am finally able to sit down and read up.

1. I think it's clear that the chaotic/evil alignment is the cult. Special thanks to TFO for shedding light on the discussion and confirming that there is a cult. Cult can't be anything else, otherwise other alignments could win with them.
2. I have no idea what "mafia" would be. Looking at the "win" chart, there is no other alignment that wins by itself. Perhaps they are a mix of lawful/evil and neutral/evil characters, as evil seems to be the defining characteristic. (See also, MOB's post of Edoc's post...)
3. Based on the same post (MoBs repost of Edoc) I could see some lawful/good and chaotic/good wanting to kill each other as their win condition as well.
4. I think the Betiko case was opened and closed before I could read/respond. It wasn't much, but I do appreciate Rodion posting it to keep things moving. (as excited as I am about the theme, we did need to move on)

Observations:

1. Jonty thinks cult could be good/----- ? Silly at best.
2. TFO - brought out that cult does exist. Either he's in some crazy gamble for 'town' cred, or he's just telling the truth. I believe the latter (truth).
3. DoomYoshi always confuses me...example...

Chaotic Evil cannot win with any other party. SK cannot win with any other party. It seems simple, but it is also possible that we have a CE Jester.

three posts later...

Flavor wise, cult isn't CE. There is nothing "Chaotic" about cults.

4. Dazza, Newguy and Stubbs are all relatively absent/silent.

Conclusion: I can make no case against anyone at this point...and now I'm all caught up.

And fastposted by a bunch while I was putting this together...now I am not caught up...

[new guy1]

I am relatively silent. Im going to be honest and say that I have just been trying to figure out whose vsing who. Yes I have not been making many posts. I have said time and time again that I loathe day 1. I rarely ever post day 1. It goes with my past, current, and as far as I can tell, future "play style". I dont mean to scummarine, it just seems to happen. Add on the fact I just started college this week and Ive been packing the week prior to that, and I am a busy person. Ill try to post more tomorrow, but for now Im tired.

[DoomYoshi]

Fastposted by Doom

Don't give a damn about lawful or chaotic. Evil guys die first. Thus it is decreed. Furthermore, Strike never said Chaos was town, only that there were probably more of them. According to Edoc's opening post, most of us are neutral/good, so I suggest we assume that THEY are town.

ebwop not actually the opening post:

The majority of players would be (neutral, good)

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 7#p4245259

The watcher can win with 2 different evil factions... does that mean you treat him as a survivor? Your win conditions overlap 50%.

[strike wolf]

That's not at all what I was saying and really goes so far off from the theme of the game I really don't get where you came up with that from.

As far as I'm concerned, the Goods whether they be lawful Neutral or Chaotic are the closest we have to town. But it gets complicated because all of them are like "Yeah we're good guys!" But the lawfuls are like "Yeah we're good but these evil and neutral dudes over here are also lawful so they're cool." And the good neuts are like "what?" While the Good chaotics are like "But some of them are evil!" ANd the lawfuls are like "Yeah but they don't break the law. So it's okay." And the chaotics are like "Well okay if they are okay what about the chaotic ev...nah actually they hate us anyways but hte neutral chaotics?" And the lawfuls are like "What are you talking about? They break the law, they are so uncool." And the Good chaotics are like "Well we break the law too that doesn't make us evil. If that's the way you feel I don't want to be friends with any of you lawful guys." And the lawfuls are like "Fine be like that. We don't want to be friends with any rule breakers anyways." So they start fighting but the Good neuts are like "Guys. Calm down. Can't we forget this and just focus on the evil guys? They're the ones causing trouble." And then the neutered neuts pop out of their hooka circle and are like "Man who's to judge what's good and evil anyways? Why can't we all get along and just gang up on The Man? *Points to the Chaotic evils*"

So anyways, this wagon was my idea to begin with, I'm not letting you guys take the credit for it. Vote Jonty

[safariguy5]

Yeah, I got all caught up and was about to post the same thing strike just said.

I don't think it breaks down as simply as lawful=town and chaotic=anti town. Besides the evil alignments, for good alignments, I think that lawful and chaotic refer more to abilities. I would expect lawful good characters to be doctors and cops, while chaotic good players could be vigs or doublevoters. Flavorwise, that makes the most sense to me.

As for the cult being there, I agree that jonty's reaction was a bit odd. Cult is cult, if it was a mason group, TFO would have said mason. I'd vote, but I'd like to see the VC first.

[new guy1]

Yeah, I got all caught up and was about to post the same thing strike just said.

I don't think it breaks down as simply as lawful=town and chaotic=anti town. Besides the evil alignments, for good alignments, I think that lawful and chaotic refer more to abilities. I would expect lawful good characters to be doctors and cops, while chaotic good players could be vigs or doublevoters. Flavorwise, that makes the most sense to me.

As for the cult being there, I agree that jonty's reaction was a bit odd. Cult is cult, if it was a mason group, TFO would have said mason. I'd vote, but I'd like to see the VC first.

Thank you for the first half of this post. Now Im thinking of this game in a whole different mindset. I never even thought about roles being associated with alignment like that. But if there are less of the good and evil and its mostly good/neutral or whatever, then Im interested to know how many of them have power roles and how many (if any) factions are say, VT's.

[skillfusniper33]

Ok I have caught up with 45 posts or so, so I am a bit lost at what to say.

I will be traveling back to school tomorrow, and will have little time to view all posts, and make huge posts over the next 2-3 days.

[jonty125]

Not much I can say really, I threw out my ideas, and you throw your votes on me. This game isn't the standard Town vs. Mafia, so who said that the cult had to have a classic "negative/evil" alignment. Since TFO came out and said, they worship the big scary dragon, the wagon started "jonty said they might be good", "jonty was wrong", "jonty must have been wrong to protect his own interests."

I think the wagon is weak at best (but then again I might be biased) so I know this is OMGUS unvote, vote strike wolf he started the fire, and then later got on his own wagon (as in the wagon he started, not the wagon that's trying to lynch him).

[betiko]

Wow, so many posts!

Thanks mob, that really helped as it comes from edoc s fingers.

Personally, I think that there is 1 chaotic evil which is a dragon and a cult recruiter.
Secondly, I expect at least 2 factions to be masoned, each being relatively small factions. I think that there is no plain mafia.

[DoomYoshi]

Yeah, I got all caught up and was about to post the same thing strike just said.

I don't think it breaks down as simply as lawful=town and chaotic=anti town. Besides the evil alignments, for good alignments, I think that lawful and chaotic refer more to abilities. I would expect lawful good characters to be doctors and cops, while chaotic good players could be vigs or doublevoters. Flavorwise, that makes the most sense to me.

As for the cult being there, I agree that jonty's reaction was a bit odd. Cult is cult, if it was a mason group, TFO would have said mason. I'd vote, but I'd like to see the VC first.

Lawful good is your more extreme alignment, therefore stronger roles, such as vig and cop.

[aage]

Fastposted by Doom

Don't give a damn about lawful or chaotic. Evil guys die first. Thus it is decreed. Furthermore, Strike never said Chaos was town, only that there were probably more of them. According to Edoc's opening post, most of us are neutral/good, so I suggest we assume that THEY are town.

ebwop not actually the opening post:

The majority of players would be (neutral, good)

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 7#p4245259

The watcher can win with 2 different evil factions... does that mean you treat him as a survivor? Your win conditions overlap 50%.

Yes, but since good/neut outnumbers evil/anything, and since we won't need to lynch the watcher and he won't need to lynch us, it doesn't matter and I don't care. Even if we end up with GL and GC killing each other off. They have no interest in killing me, I have no interest in killing them.
It's that simple.

This game isn't the standard Town vs. Mafia, so who said that the cult had to have a classic "negative/evil" alignment.

The alignment sheet, as I explained earlier.

[dazza2008]

Caught up on the last few pages. I didn't like Jonty saying the cult could be good. That seems suspicious to me. I would vote but I want to see the vote count first.

Sorry for not posting loads. Just been quite busy. I will keep up and post more.

[Epitaph1]

As someone mentioned, if cult it the E/C, I agree that it precludes an SK from being E/C as well. However, I don't think we can sit tight and assume there isn't an SK or at least some 3rd party killer in the game. Perhaps, it would be an altered SK that could somehow win with one of the evil factions (in which case, perhaps it could be E/C after all).

Upon further consideration, if there are two mafia factions split upon the lines of E/L and E/N, they could conceivably both win since their alignments match up. I suppose if this were the case, there would only be 2 mafia factions + cult instead of 1 mafia + 1 cult + 1 SK/3rd party killer.

Re: jonty's comment. I don't know if his suggestion that the cult could be good is the most damning comment ever, but I think it's a worse slip than gregwolf saying that he's kicking his feet up until we figure out something to do. His OMGUS doesn't help his cause either.

unvote Vote Jonty

[anamainiacks]

Like the others before me, I've finally caught up with the numerous posts. Definitely way more fruitful a discussion that we could've hoped for on Day 1. Many thanks especially to TFO's volunteered information, and also the timely quote from Edoc that MoB pulled from the Discussions thread.

Also repeating the past wisdom of some others that've already posted (but I think it's beneficial, and there's certainly no harm in reiterating them):

• Logically speaking the cult would definitely fall under Evil/Chaotic, and I don't see why there was so much doubt raised over that. We have the win condition, Edoc's post, and not to mention the fact that a cult - resulting in changing alignments - would add much 'chaos' to the game. How are they at all lawful?
• Good, regardless of L/N/C seems to be our closest definition of what is considered Town; not Lawful. Evil, by definition, would be (loosely) Anti-Town, though I don't think this is particularly important.

I am relatively silent. Im going to be honest and say that I have just been trying to figure out whose vsing who. Yes I have not been making many posts. I have said time and time again that I loathe day 1. I rarely ever post day 1. It goes with my past, current, and as far as I can tell, future "play style". I dont mean to scummarine, it just seems to happen. Add on the fact I just started college this week and Ive been packing the week prior to that, and I am a busy person. Ill try to post more tomorrow, but for now Im tired.

People usually hate Day 1 because of its jokevote-ness and lack of substance. ut we do have lots of it this time, so this game would be a great time to break that cycle of yours (and it does, for now, appear that you are, so that's good).


I don't think Cults are ever town-aligned. If they are Pro-Town and capable of recruiting, they're often referred to as Recruiters, no? There's no denying the fact that the mere word 'Cult' itself carries negative connotations, and thus would be a force that brings detriment to most players in the game, regardless of how different a mafia game this is. So it does seem to me like Jonty was making a conscious effort to turn us away from the notion that Cult was evil.

By my count, there are 3 votes on Jonty, so there's still more than enough time for him to defend himself before more votes pile up and put him in danger. Vote jonty125.

Fp'ed by Epi. That makes 5 votes on Jonty now, L-5.

[MoB Deadly]

Edoc - Could I request a vote count more often please if it is not much trouble? Obviously jonty is a bandwagon right now, but it helps me to see other votes that are cast on other players and kinda see the game as a whole. It also makes for good references to build cases later. Not to mention trying to get eyes on any double voting, vote stealing, and anything else of the sort.

[StubbsKVM]

Seems like I missed a lot.

Well, I could parrot what has already been said, but I won't.

I think we should focus on finding the cult recruiter first and worry about everyone else later.

[jonty125]

I think we should focus on finding the cult recruiter first and worry about everyone else later.

And how do you propose we do that? Since you seem unwilling to provide a view on the current case & debate.

[StubbsKVM]

I think the case on you is pretty good actually. I also like how you're now trying to discredit me for not commenting on it.

I'm waiting for an official votecount before putting my vote down, plus I was focused on another mafia game here. Considering that took a lot of time and effort, I simply wrote a short post here, to show I'm still around and following.

[DoomYoshi]

[*]Good, regardless of L/N/C seems to be our closest definition of what is considered Town; not Lawful. Evil, by definition, would be (loosely) Anti-Town, though I don't think this is particularly important.[/list]

Is this based on a quote that edoc made out of the thread before the game was in sign ups and before it was balanced up to 19 players? Or is there some other piece of evidence.

Evil =/= anti-town.

[new guy1]

I am relatively silent. Im going to be honest and say that I have just been trying to figure out whose vsing who. Yes I have not been making many posts. I have said time and time again that I loathe day 1. I rarely ever post day 1. It goes with my past, current, and as far as I can tell, future "play style". I dont mean to scummarine, it just seems to happen. Add on the fact I just started college this week and Ive been packing the week prior to that, and I am a busy person. Ill try to post more tomorrow, but for now Im tired.

People usually hate Day 1 because of its jokevote-ness and lack of substance. ut we do have lots of it this time, so this game would be a great time to break that cycle of yours (and it does, for now, appear that you are, so that's good).

Its not that, its usually the fact that even with day 1 cases which are good, I find it hard to vote people without evidence. Its a habit I have that I just cant seem to break. It seems so weird, unless there is a slip up that I see scummy as hell, to vote them. However, I did read 2 pages worth of posts after a day at school, and so I fell behind. After rereading, I have decided that jonty trying to paint a cult in a good light is quite odd, and even though he was just throwing it out there as a suggestion, I cant see how a recruiter is good, must less when the specific word cult was used to TFO (or at least thats what he said). With this, I feel alright pinning another vote up. Vote Jonty

[TheForgivenOne]

I am relatively silent. Im going to be honest and say that I have just been trying to figure out whose vsing who. Yes I have not been making many posts. I have said time and time again that I loathe day 1. I rarely ever post day 1. It goes with my past, current, and as far as I can tell, future "play style". I dont mean to scummarine, it just seems to happen. Add on the fact I just started college this week and Ive been packing the week prior to that, and I am a busy person. Ill try to post more tomorrow, but for now Im tired.

People usually hate Day 1 because of its jokevote-ness and lack of substance. ut we do have lots of it this time, so this game would be a great time to break that cycle of yours (and it does, for now, appear that you are, so that's good).

Its not that, its usually the fact that even with day 1 cases which are good, I find it hard to vote people without evidence. Its a habit I have that I just cant seem to break. It seems so weird, unless there is a slip up that I see scummy as hell, to vote them. However, I did read 2 pages worth of posts after a day at school, and so I fell behind. After rereading, I have decided that jonty trying to paint a cult in a good light is quite odd, and even though he was just throwing it out there as a suggestion, I cant see how a recruiter is good, must less when the specific word cult was used to TFO (or at least thats what he said). With this, I feel alright pinning another vote up. Vote Jonty

Well, I can't exactly see why a mod would tell me that their is a group of Masons in the game (Although Cult is odd too, but less odder then masons).