Cool, thanks for that. I've been trying to keep stuff civil since I got out of line with peeps earlier in the thread. I can engage with your example though- if 1% of a thing is fraudulent, it certainly casts doubt on the legitimacy of the remaining 99% if the 1% is still treated as a valid thing.
So yes, I would say that not only does it cheapen medals if they're given to people who cheat others to get them, I would also suggest that it would increase the value of medals received if it were known that you can't just cheat and keep one.
I appreciate that this is not a big deal, merely a suggestion.
the world is in greater peril from those who tolerate or encourage evil than from those who actually commit it- Albert Einstein
Also, Symmetry may not feel this way, but each player has a certain sum of medals and that number is tracked on the scoreboard. For each medal that someone gets, they vault up many, many places on that scoreboard, and they push everyone at their old total down one notch. So even though you may not see it when looking at your wall, when you look at the scoreboard, giving out "unearned" medals does devalue the medals of other people.
I'm lucky enough to be at 69 medals, but getting another medal for me jumps me over 10 people, and likewise pushes those 10 people down a notch. The effects are even more extreme as you go down the list. At 30 medals, there's over 50 people, for example.
agentcom wrote:Also, Symmetry may not feel this way, but each player has a certain sum of medals and that number is tracked on the scoreboard. For each medal that someone gets, they vault up many, many places on that scoreboard, and they push everyone at their old total down one notch. So even though you may not see it when looking at your wall, when you look at the scoreboard, giving out "unearned" medals does devalue the medals of other people.
I'm lucky enough to be at 69 medals, but getting another medal for me jumps me over 10 people, and likewise pushes those 10 people down a notch. The effects are even more extreme as you go down the list. At 30 medals, there's over 50 people, for example.
Right, I'm 36 on the medal scoreboard. Unfortunately a lot of people including myself at the top of this list have 20+ medals from running tournaments. If you erased medals due to cheating, you cannot fairly erase tournament creation medals since they obviously have nothing to do with cheating. With no cap on the tourney medal counts (for better or worse), someone could reach the top of the medal list with playing few games.
taking a break from cc, will be back sometime in the future.
patrickaa317 wrote:
Right, I'm 36 on the medal scoreboard. Unfortunately a lot of people including myself at the top of this list have 20+ medals from running tournaments. If you erased medals due to cheating, you cannot fairly erase tournament creation medals since they obviously have nothing to do with cheating.
Yes you can, if the point of the medal reset is a deterrence effect.
patrickaa317 wrote:
Right, I'm 36 on the medal scoreboard. Unfortunately a lot of people including myself at the top of this list have 20+ medals from running tournaments. If you erased medals due to cheating, you cannot fairly erase tournament creation medals since they obviously have nothing to do with cheating.
Yes you can, if the point of the medal reset is a deterrence effect.
I am still not sure why we don't just boot the cheaters in general? If we are ok with giving them a second chance, why not give them a true second chance rather than stripping medals that may have had nothing to do with their cheating.
"That sucks you cheated, we still want you here but I'm going to strip you of all your medals. But you still have a second or third chance."
taking a break from cc, will be back sometime in the future.
patrickaa317 wrote:
Right, I'm 36 on the medal scoreboard. Unfortunately a lot of people including myself at the top of this list have 20+ medals from running tournaments. If you erased medals due to cheating, you cannot fairly erase tournament creation medals since they obviously have nothing to do with cheating.
Yes you can, if the point of the medal reset is a deterrence effect.
I am still not sure why we don't just boot the cheaters in general? If we are ok with giving them a second chance, why not give them a true second chance rather than stripping medals that may have had nothing to do with their cheating.
"That sucks you cheated, we still want you here but I'm going to strip you of all your medals. But you still have a second or third chance."
I'd say, if they want to stay and play fair, they should be given the chance to earn them back again fairly.
the world is in greater peril from those who tolerate or encourage evil than from those who actually commit it- Albert Einstein
patrickaa317 wrote:
Right, I'm 36 on the medal scoreboard. Unfortunately a lot of people including myself at the top of this list have 20+ medals from running tournaments. If you erased medals due to cheating, you cannot fairly erase tournament creation medals since they obviously have nothing to do with cheating.
Yes you can, if the point of the medal reset is a deterrence effect.
I am still not sure why we don't just boot the cheaters in general? If we are ok with giving them a second chance, why not give them a true second chance rather than stripping medals that may have had nothing to do with their cheating.
"That sucks you cheated, we still want you here but I'm going to strip you of all your medals. But you still have a second or third chance."
I'd say, if they want to stay and play fair, they should be given the chance to earn them back again fairly.
They may have earned their medals fairly the first time. if you are limiting the stripping to ONLY medals that could have been gained due to cheating, you have my support immediately.
taking a break from cc, will be back sometime in the future.
patrickaa317 wrote:
Right, I'm 36 on the medal scoreboard. Unfortunately a lot of people including myself at the top of this list have 20+ medals from running tournaments. If you erased medals due to cheating, you cannot fairly erase tournament creation medals since they obviously have nothing to do with cheating.
Yes you can, if the point of the medal reset is a deterrence effect.
I am still not sure why we don't just boot the cheaters in general? If we are ok with giving them a second chance, why not give them a true second chance rather than stripping medals that may have had nothing to do with their cheating.
"That sucks you cheated, we still want you here but I'm going to strip you of all your medals. But you still have a second or third chance."
I'd say, if they want to stay and play fair, they should be given the chance to earn them back again fairly.
They may have earned their medals fairly the first time. if you are limiting the stripping to ONLY medals that could have been gained due to cheating, you have my support immediately.
That is very much my argument. There's been a fair bit of back and forth working out how to modify the original suggestion here, but yeah, only medals gained due to cheating. I agree.
the world is in greater peril from those who tolerate or encourage evil than from those who actually commit it- Albert Einstein
patrickaa317 wrote:
Right, I'm 36 on the medal scoreboard. Unfortunately a lot of people including myself at the top of this list have 20+ medals from running tournaments. If you erased medals due to cheating, you cannot fairly erase tournament creation medals since they obviously have nothing to do with cheating.
Yes you can, if the point of the medal reset is a deterrence effect.
I am still not sure why we don't just boot the cheaters in general? If we are ok with giving them a second chance, why not give them a true second chance rather than stripping medals that may have had nothing to do with their cheating.
"That sucks you cheated, we still want you here but I'm going to strip you of all your medals. But you still have a second or third chance."
I'd say, if they want to stay and play fair, they should be given the chance to earn them back again fairly.
They may have earned their medals fairly the first time. if you are limiting the stripping to ONLY medals that could have been gained due to cheating, you have my support immediately.
That is very much my argument. There's been a fair bit of back and forth working out how to modify the original suggestion here, but yeah, only medals gained due to cheating. I agree.
If you update the OP, I'll post my agreeance in the thread.
taking a break from cc, will be back sometime in the future.
It is too vague. It needs to be something specific that a developer can do. Like, "people who are busted for cheating should have all Game Achievement medals stripped."
It is too vague. It needs to be something specific that a developer can do. Like, "people who are busted for cheating should have all Game Achievement medals that were possibly gained by their cheating stripped."
fixed
taking a break from cc, will be back sometime in the future.
It is too vague. It needs to be something specific that a developer can do. Like, "people who are busted for cheating should have all Game Achievement medals stripped."
I've put your suggested phrasing at the to of the OP.
the world is in greater peril from those who tolerate or encourage evil than from those who actually commit it- Albert Einstein
It is too vague. It needs to be something specific that a developer can do. Like, "people who are busted for cheating should have all Game Achievement medals that were possibly gained by their cheating stripped."
fixed
This sounds nice, but is not good in practice. It requires C&A mods to sift through and determine which medals were possibly affected by their cheating status. Frankly, I'm not going to ask that of them.
It is too vague. It needs to be something specific that a developer can do. Like, "people who are busted for cheating should have all Game Achievement medals that were possibly gained by their cheating stripped."
fixed
This sounds nice, but is not good in practice. It requires C&A mods to sift through and determine which medals were possibly affected by their cheating status. Frankly, I'm not going to ask that of them.
Completely understandable on that. I wouldn't expect that of them either. And I don't support a suggestion where all medals are removed, even the ones that were gained outside of cheating.
taking a break from cc, will be back sometime in the future.
It is too vague. It needs to be something specific that a developer can do. Like, "people who are busted for cheating should have all Game Achievement medals that were possibly gained by their cheating stripped."
fixed
This sounds nice, but is not good in practice. It requires C&A mods to sift through and determine which medals were possibly affected by their cheating status. Frankly, I'm not going to ask that of them.
Completely understandable on that. I wouldn't expect that of them either. And I don't support a suggestion where all medals are removed, even the ones that were gained outside of cheating.
So I think that removal of Game Achievement medals is the best compromise we can achieve, and we either submit that or we submit nothing. You all can decide.
It is too vague. It needs to be something specific that a developer can do. Like, "people who are busted for cheating should have all Game Achievement medals that were possibly gained by their cheating stripped."
fixed
This sounds nice, but is not good in practice. It requires C&A mods to sift through and determine which medals were possibly affected by their cheating status. Frankly, I'm not going to ask that of them.
Completely understandable on that. I wouldn't expect that of them either. And I don't support a suggestion where all medals are removed, even the ones that were gained outside of cheating.
So I think that removal of Game Achievement medals is the best compromise we can achieve, and we either submit that or we submit nothing. You all can decide.
I'd prefer nothing.
taking a break from cc, will be back sometime in the future.
Can we just add an option to the rules that allows medal stripping as part of punishments? (Which is already is)
I guess I just don't REALLY see what needs implemented here. This is more about policy than anything else, right? I don't see what is needing to be implemented here.
chapcrap wrote:Can we just add an option to the rules that allows medal stripping as part of punishments? (Which is already is)
I guess I just don't REALLY see what needs implemented here. This is more about policy than anything else, right? I don't see what is needing to be implemented here.
Basically, the problem is that if you take away a game achievement medal right now (say, standard) and then you win another standard game, we think that the medal will be automatically awarded because you have more than the number of wins required for the medal. So you would need to code in some way of awarding medals that subtracts out all games before the date of the bust.
chapcrap wrote:Can we just add an option to the rules that allows medal stripping as part of punishments? (Which is already is)
I guess I just don't REALLY see what needs implemented here. This is more about policy than anything else, right? I don't see what is needing to be implemented here.
Basically, the problem is that if you take away a game achievement medal right now (say, standard) and then you win another standard game, we think that the medal will be automatically awarded because you have more than the number of wins required for the medal. So you would need to code in some way of awarding medals that subtracts out all games before the date of the bust.
Is the consensus on if the player should be able to re-earn the medals that are stripped? If the need to be able to then yes those victories would somehow need to be able to be subtracted. (Question: Should beating the same opponents that they did to get the medal the first time count towards getting it back?) If they don't need to be able to get the medals again then instead there needs to be a way to simply block the medal from be reissued automatically.
chapcrap wrote:Can we just add an option to the rules that allows medal stripping as part of punishments? (Which is already is)
I guess I just don't REALLY see what needs implemented here. This is more about policy than anything else, right? I don't see what is needing to be implemented here.
Basically, the problem is that if you take away a game achievement medal right now (say, standard) and then you win another standard game, we think that the medal will be automatically awarded because you have more than the number of wins required for the medal. So you would need to code in some way of awarding medals that subtracts out all games before the date of the bust.
Oh yeah, I guess I'm the one who pointed that out earlier. I just assumed that victories would be stripped along with the medals. Games can be deleted, so there you go.
chapcrap wrote:Can we just add an option to the rules that allows medal stripping as part of punishments? (Which is already is)
I guess I just don't REALLY see what needs implemented here. This is more about policy than anything else, right? I don't see what is needing to be implemented here.
Basically, the problem is that if you take away a game achievement medal right now (say, standard) and then you win another standard game, we think that the medal will be automatically awarded because you have more than the number of wins required for the medal. So you would need to code in some way of awarding medals that subtracts out all games before the date of the bust.
Oh yeah, I guess I'm the one who pointed that out earlier. I just assumed that victories would be stripped along with the medals. Games can be deleted, so there you go.
I would not want to do this because that will have a negative effect on the opponents in those games, who were not cheating.
chapcrap wrote:Can we just add an option to the rules that allows medal stripping as part of punishments? (Which is already is)
I guess I just don't REALLY see what needs implemented here. This is more about policy than anything else, right? I don't see what is needing to be implemented here.
Basically, the problem is that if you take away a game achievement medal right now (say, standard) and then you win another standard game, we think that the medal will be automatically awarded because you have more than the number of wins required for the medal. So you would need to code in some way of awarding medals that subtracts out all games before the date of the bust.
Oh yeah, I guess I'm the one who pointed that out earlier. I just assumed that victories would be stripped along with the medals. Games can be deleted, so there you go.
Games shouldn't be deleted for the sake of undoing medals. Horrible way to do something like this.
taking a break from cc, will be back sometime in the future.
