Wishy-Washy Mafia (7/13) Endgame: Forgiveness (Town Win)

[Melkor52]

Well it would be really overpowered if the cult recruiter role got passed on to someone else. However, with greg claimed, it makes no sense not to reveal investigation information. If you don't share, and you end up dead later, we lose that information.

This ^

Come on Greg, you know there is no value in holding your investigation back.

I would rather believe that there were 2 cult/mafia teams in this game. Essentially, two players that could recruit/kill on different nights. Each one started with one player, the captain. Cult 1 could recruit on N1, N3, N5, etc, and kill on N2, N4, N6. Cult 2 could recruit on N2, N4, N6 and kill on N1, N3, N5, etc.

So, still one team left, with 2 players. Therefore, if there was a recruit ability, would you try to take out the cop? And if you were the cop that got recruited, would you delay you results, since you may not have gotten any? Come on, Greg...

I don't know about two cults; however, if a cop can't prevent being recruited then why wouldn't the cult rush out to recruit the cop? That way they remove a powerful town resource? And please, if there is a mafia game rule that prevents a cop from being recruited let a noobie know. If not a REAL HEAVY FOS on Greg either he was recruited, or was never a cop to begin with. And if not then he is lying scum of some faction. Or am I missing something?

[kratos644]

also I am the one that pointed to TFO

you seem really eager to get me...

That blatant bandwagon early on put you on my radar. I'm not necessarily eager to get you, I just don't trust you being town. Also pointing to TFO doesn't mean anything. There is likely a second recruiting faction because I agree that the recruiter powers passing on is unlikely. The other recruiter would likely want TFO dead so saying you pointed to him doesn't clear you as town.

As for Greg not claiming his results, what if he hit a PR he doesn't want to expose. We have no guarantee that we have a doc in this game.

[Melkor52]

also I am the one that pointed to TFO

you seem really eager to get me...

That blatant bandwagon early on put you on my radar. I'm not necessarily eager to get you, I just don't trust you being town. Also pointing to TFO doesn't mean anything. There is likely a second recruiting faction because I agree that the recruiter powers passing on is unlikely. The other recruiter would likely want TFO dead so saying you pointed to him doesn't clear you as town.

As for Greg not claiming his results, what if he hit a PR he doesn't want to expose. We have no guarantee that we have a doc in this game.

The point isn't that not reveling information found out is suspicious. I can think of several reasons that not giving out information discovered in a night action would be in the town's best interests. The point that I'm making is that if a person informs EVERYONE that he is a power role for the town that that person immediately becomes the cult's obvious choice for recruitment. In any war one of the main objectives is to reduce your enemies abilities to wage war. A cop who can investigate people at night is a valuable town asset. By announcing that during day two Greg did either one of two things. 1) made himself a target for recruitment. or 2) was a lying scum bag from the start who was not a cop but trying to deceive the towns people. That being said then Jonty is a scum suspect as well since he was given the green light by Greg. The more I think about it the more I say.
Vote Greg and if I could vote twice I would vote Jonty as well.

[Nebuchadnezer]

also I am the one that pointed to TFO

you seem really eager to get me...

That blatant bandwagon early on put you on my radar. I'm not necessarily eager to get you, I just don't trust you being town. Also pointing to TFO doesn't mean anything. There is likely a second recruiting faction because I agree that the recruiter powers passing on is unlikely. The other recruiter would likely want TFO dead so saying you pointed to him doesn't clear you as town.

As for Greg not claiming his results, what if he hit a PR he doesn't want to expose. We have no guarantee that we have a doc in this game.

The point isn't that not reveling information found out is suspicious. I can think of several reasons that not giving out information discovered in a night action would be in the town's best interests. The point that I'm making is that if a person informs EVERYONE that he is a power role for the town that that person immediately becomes the cult's obvious choice for recruitment. In any war one of the main objectives is to reduce your enemies abilities to wage war. A cop who can investigate people at night is a valuable town asset. By announcing that during day two Greg did either one of two things. 1) made himself a target for recruitment. or 2) was a lying scum bag from the start who was not a cop but trying to deceive the towns people. That being said then Jonty is a scum suspect as well since he was given the green light by Greg. The more I think about it the more I say.
Vote Greg and if I could vote twice I would vote Jonty as well.

We need to find the source, not the symptom. Greg did not start out as the recruiter, so even if he recruited, it does nothing to help us find the recruiter. Were I not a little bit confident in your towniness, I would vote you for this vote of yours.

We need to find the recruiter.

[Nebuchadnezer]

also I am the one that pointed to TFO

you seem really eager to get me...

That blatant bandwagon early on put you on my radar. I'm not necessarily eager to get you, I just don't trust you being town. Also pointing to TFO doesn't mean anything. There is likely a second recruiting faction because I agree that the recruiter powers passing on is unlikely. The other recruiter would likely want TFO dead so saying you pointed to him doesn't clear you as town.

As for Greg not claiming his results, what if he hit a PR he doesn't want to expose. We have no guarantee that we have a doc in this game.

The point isn't that not reveling information found out is suspicious. I can think of several reasons that not giving out information discovered in a night action would be in the town's best interests. The point that I'm making is that if a person informs EVERYONE that he is a power role for the town that that person immediately becomes the cult's obvious choice for recruitment. In any war one of the main objectives is to reduce your enemies abilities to wage war. A cop who can investigate people at night is a valuable town asset. By announcing that during day two Greg did either one of two things. 1) made himself a target for recruitment. or 2) was a lying scum bag from the start who was not a cop but trying to deceive the towns people. That being said then Jonty is a scum suspect as well since he was given the green light by Greg. The more I think about it the more I say.
Vote Greg and if I could vote twice I would vote Jonty as well.

We need to find the source, not the symptom. Greg did not start out as the recruiter, so even if he recruited, it does nothing to help us find the recruiter. Were I not a little bit confident in your towniness, I would vote you for this vote of yours.

We need to find the recruiter.

Doh! I am NOT confident in your towniness...VOTE Melkor

[Melkor52]

also I am the one that pointed to TFO

you seem really eager to get me...

That blatant bandwagon early on put you on my radar. I'm not necessarily eager to get you, I just don't trust you being town. Also pointing to TFO doesn't mean anything. There is likely a second recruiting faction because I agree that the recruiter powers passing on is unlikely. The other recruiter would likely want TFO dead so saying you pointed to him doesn't clear you as town.

As for Greg not claiming his results, what if he hit a PR he doesn't want to expose. We have no guarantee that we have a doc in this game.

The point isn't that not reveling information found out is suspicious. I can think of several reasons that not giving out information discovered in a night action would be in the town's best interests. The point that I'm making is that if a person informs EVERYONE that he is a power role for the town that that person immediately becomes the cult's obvious choice for recruitment. In any war one of the main objectives is to reduce your enemies abilities to wage war. A cop who can investigate people at night is a valuable town asset. By announcing that during day two Greg did either one of two things. 1) made himself a target for recruitment. or 2) was a lying scum bag from the start who was not a cop but trying to deceive the towns people. That being said then Jonty is a scum suspect as well since he was given the green light by Greg. The more I think about it the more I say.
Vote Greg and if I could vote twice I would vote Jonty as well.

We need to find the source, not the symptom. Greg did not start out as the recruiter, so even if he recruited, it does nothing to help us find the recruiter. Were I not a little bit confident in your towniness, I would vote you for this vote of yours.

We need to find the recruiter.

I understand the paranoia in a situation like this, but riddle me this Batman, if you where a cultist with the ability to recruit anyone you choose, would you not recruit a known town power player? If so who would have been a better target than Greg? And if he wasn't targeted then why not? I'm all ears. If there is a good reason why my logic isn't correct I will apologize and withdraw my vote. But why wouldn't he be targeted? Unless he was scum already?

[Nebuchadnezer]

Because you are operating on the assumption that your WIFOM is a fact. It's not. At best, your theory gets us a recruitee. At worst we kill our cop. In either situation, we've done nothing to kill/find the player that is recruiting/killing townies. Meaning, we start tomorrow exactly where we start today.

Want some more WIFOM? If I were the recruiter, I would recruit the most likely player to be recruited and then turn around and lead the lynch on that player, thus gaining big town credit. Therefore, you must be scum. (please understand the sarcasm in this)

My vote it not paranoia. It is based on the fact that killing Greg does nothing to advance find the bad guy.

[Melkor52]

Because you are operating on the assumption that your WIFOM is a fact. It's not. At best, your theory gets us a recruitee. At worst we kill our cop. In either situation, we've done nothing to kill/find the player that is recruiting/killing townies. Meaning, we start tomorrow exactly where we start today.

Want some more WIFOM? If I were the recruiter, I would recruit the most likely player to be recruited and then turn around and lead the lynch on that player, thus gaining big town credit. Therefore, you must be scum. (please understand the sarcasm in this)

My vote it not paranoia. It is based on the fact that killing Greg does nothing to advance find the bad guy.

I see your point. Even if Greg is now scum and we lynch him, we still don't have the scum source. So while the cult isn't growing, the town is shrinking. Crap! Everything IS stacked against us isn't it. And by the way, Jonty was cleared before Greg was identified as a cop so if he was recruited last night Jonty is still town. Unless Greg was always scum and Jonty is the cult leader. Oh Hell, there just isn't enough verifiable information to make any true deductions is there.

OK, from this point on, anything Greg says is very suspect. And I would look at anything Jonty says with a fine tooth comb, but I have no clues as to the identity of the cult leader.

By the way, what does WIFOM mean?

[gregwolf121]

my main reason for not sharing my results right away was benga's accusation it confused me and i wanted clarification as to what he was going on about

i investigated safariguy5 last night, he is town.

as to the rest well, i'm looking at benga and melkor, but i won't vote right now

[kratos644]

It's a form of circular reasoning. It stands for Wine in front of me and comes from the movie Princess Bride. If you've seen it, it's from the scene where the win is poisoned and he must determine which cup has the poison in it. An example is when someone is accusing someone during the day. And then gets offed at night. One might say that person is mafia because his accuser is now dead but one response to that the person could say that the mafia planned that out to raise suspicion on a townie. Circular logic that doesn't really get you anywhere.

[safariguy5]

Back from my weekend away, appears i did not miss much except the night scene.
i dont get the scene really, the scene in my opinion suggests that there is another kind of recruiter. but we killed it. 2 recruiters in one game, sounds counter-intuative. or is it possible that rishead changed a role because we got the recruiter that fast and town is now in a too strong position? i mean with a cop and a doc and only a serial killer it sounds like a sure thing if there would only have been a serial killer left. But being relativly new to this and never modded a game i think its not - done but some more experienced player might know more.
or is it maybe possible that it is a 1 shot option, i think that might be the most logic explanation?
@ benga, that kind of was a strange comment.

That's my thought about the recruitment as well. We lynched the cult recruiter so fast that rishead allowed the cult to have another recruiter to keep the game lively. But that still doesn't explain the lack of a killing last night. Unless the cultist recruited the SK.

Noobie Question ------------------
If a SK gets recruited and becomes the cults new recruiter can he still kill? And if he just becomes a regular cult member can he still kill?

I highly doubt the mod would change a person's role midgame just because town was going to win too quickly. That would be incredibly unfair to town. What I am curious about is why this recruitment wasn't shown in the first night scene. Is it possible the cult started with two members and this second member took over for the cult. The other potential is a one man mafia with the ability to recruit or kill but that seems more powerful than it should be.

Also, recruits generally lose powers but that is up to the mod.

I'm going to start the day with vote benga. He has appeared scummy in earlier days and his last question to Greg was rather odd. I'd like to hear what he has to say about it but I'm good with getting the pressure going.

I was waiting to see what you would post kratos, and this post basically sides with greg.

I am the town Watcher. I forgot to send in an action night 1 because I was on vacation. My bad.

However, I watched gregwolf on Night 2 and kratos visited him.

Taken together with kratos trying to defend greg's initial refusal to reveal investigation pegs kratos as some sort of anti town recruiter more than a town mason recruiter.

As for the lack of a nightkill, I think that could be a good sign we have a town vig. Not killing is a pretty strong indication that it is not a SKer as SKers must attempt a kill every night. Could still be a SKer and we got a lucky doc protection, but I think we have more pressing issues right now.

unvote vote kratos

[kratos644]

I did indeed visit gregwolf but not to recruit him. Would prefer to leave it at that but will full claim if that is what is desired. Just don't speed lynch me.

[benga]

I did indeed visit gregwolf but not to recruit him. Would prefer to leave it at that but will full claim if that is what is desired. Just don't speed lynch me.

think you will need to make that claim, like this you seem to protect him

now I do see sense in you making accusations on me when I voted TFO and raised suspicion on greg

vote kratos

[virus90]

i think a full claim is needed, i knew since day 2 that you were either scum or a PR, based on you making comments that you did not knew about the VT similarities thing. Was gonna out you for it as well if the day stalled. But here we already have it, so i think a claim is needed. With such an accuse i would immediately claim at all time i guess, now it kind of seems that your buying some time to make a good story...

[rishaed]

Vote Count:

gregwolf121 (1) - Melkor52
kratos644 (2) - benga, Safariguy5
Melkor52 (1) - Nebuchadnezer
benga (1) - kratos644

With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch. Due to insomnia on the first day of classes...... your vote count comes at 4 in the morning. *sigh*

[kratos644]

No point in waiting longer to claim as this is the direction things are going to take. My role is town reasoner. If I target the same person as the recruiter I am able to reason with that person and convince them not to join the cult. Basically a roleblocker that is only effective against the recruiter. I targeted Greg last night as he seemed the likely recruitee but obviously the recruiter felt the same way and targeted elsewhere. This is why I defended Greg as I knew he wasn't the one that got recruited. I realize that I probably still appear like a good policy lynch because if I am lying you could win the game but I'm telling the truth and I'm likely the only one who can stop a recruitment.

[safariguy5]

No point in waiting longer to claim as this is the direction things are going to take. My role is town reasoner. If I target the same person as the recruiter I am able to reason with that person and convince them not to join the cult. Basically a roleblocker that is only effective against the recruiter. I targeted Greg last night as he seemed the likely recruitee but obviously the recruiter felt the same way and targeted elsewhere. This is why I defended Greg as I knew he wasn't the one that got recruited. I realize that I probably still appear like a good policy lynch because if I am lying you could win the game but I'm telling the truth and I'm likely the only one who can stop a recruitment.

Well if you are telling the truth, then with the recruiter dead, your claimed role loses basically all value. I think the best course of action would be to lynch you.

If you turn up town, then we can be somewhat sure that greg is still town. Follow the cop till we find the last scum player and you win with us.

If you turn up as anti town, then hopefully we've taken care of the anti town factions, and then we lynch greg tomorrow.

Just to clarify, I don't think referring to this as a policy lynch is fair to you kratos because policy lynch means to lynch someone based more on their play or attitude more than actual impact on the game. I think your play is pretty good and you're taking it pretty well. I just think that more information will be gained by lynching you, making this a strategic, information lynch.

Which doesn't really make a difference to you if you get lynched, but I think you got put in a tough spot.

[kratos644]

The recruiter isn't dead though... We have two...

[jonty125]

The recruiter isn't dead though... We have two...

I don't believe there is two, in a 13 player game.

wth, greg are you cop or not, why not investigate?

vote benga how would you know that greg hadn't investigated.

[benga]

The recruiter isn't dead though... We have two...

I don't believe there is two, in a 13 player game.

wth, greg are you cop or not, why not investigate?

vote benga how would you know that greg hadn't investigated.

I don't know, I assumed it would be together with night actions, sue me I am noob here

[kratos644]

The recruiter isn't dead though... We have two...

I don't believe there is two, in a 13 player game.

wth, greg are you cop or not, why not investigate?

vote benga how would you know that greg hadn't investigated.

Did you even read the night scene? There are two recruiters at work.

[kratos644]

Sorry one more problem, Safari, you can't play follow the cop if I die because then there is no guarantee that the cop won't get recruited/killed.

[Melkor52]

The recruiter isn't dead though... We have two...

I don't believe there is two, in a 13 player game.

wth, greg are you cop or not, why not investigate?

vote benga how would you know that greg hadn't investigated.

Did you even read the night scene? There are two recruiters at work.

I read the night scene, several times, there's just one recruiter mentioned. I believe he was the cult leader but now being alone has to recruit himself rather than send another. And while I still believe Greg was recruited, I'm now starting to think you are the cult leader. FOS kratos

[HotShot53]

That last night scene was not what anyone expected...

Are we convinced that the drink and becoming comrades shows that there is another recruiter? If so, did he not recruit on night 1, or was it just not mentioned in the scene? If not mentioned night 1, why was it mentioned night 2?

What happened to the killer? Would it be mentioned in the scene if he was roleblocked, or his kill was saved by a doctor or something?

With the name "wishy-washy mafia" I could see either a scenario where the mafia is wishy-washy and kills one night and recruits the next...
[quote="rishaed" However there is a small dark side approaching, nothing lethal per say... unless you get in their way. And this small town is a perfect place to start their evil plans.[/quote]
This quote from the introduction might indicate that there are 2 recruiters, who don't kill unless they happen to recruit someone who was already recruited... maybe that's what happened the first night, they both recruited the same person, so the second to arrive killed the recruitee instead. Now that I think about it, this might make the most sense as to what happened. Is this a possible scenario?

(sorry for all the questions... this has all just really confused me as to what the scenes are indicating.)

[safariguy5]

Sorry one more problem, Safari, you can't play follow the cop if I die because then there is no guarantee that the cop won't get recruited/killed.

If you die, we have two probable scenarios.

1. If you are town- greg wasn't recruited, ergo follow the cop.

2. If you aren't town- greg probably was recruited, ergo lynch greg and win game.

Again, you're trying to say that we have 2 cult recruiters in a 13 person game? I cannot see how that would be balanced for 13 people unless every town player has some sort of night action. And with VT's being part of the game, it would be very difficult for town to win with what we have.

Scare tactics to get pressure off you doesn't work when the numbers don't back you up.