Why is god mysterious?

chewyman · Post by **chewyman** » Tue May 22, 2007 6:49 pm

The existence of God is constantly argued about in philosophy. I came to the conclusion long ago that any debate was pointless. Atheists use logical arguments. God is illogical (as is the very notion of omnipotence) and therefore cannot be proven through logic, some other form of rationing is required, in this case: faith. I'm not really concerned which one of these you choose, and I'm not saying that either one is better than the other, that's you're decision.

unriggable · Post by **unriggable** » Tue May 22, 2007 6:57 pm

jay_a2j wrote:
Backglass wrote: I always loved this quote: "Since time immemorial, the powerful have used religion to distract the oppressed, to encourage them to focus on the next world so that they will acquiesce to the injustices of this world. If you would have your slaves remain docile, teach them hymns." - Ed Weathers

I have always loved these:

"The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God'".

"Do not throw your pearls before swine to be trampled on"

"Confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead and you will be saved"

(all quotes courtesy of God)

Always loved this song:

Opiate by Tool

Choices always were a problem for you
What you need is someone strong to guide you

Deaf and blind and dumb and born to follow
What you need is someone strong to guide you...
Like me
Like me
Like me
Like me

If you want to get your soul to heaven
Trust in me, now don't you judge or question
You are broken now, but faith can heal you
Just do everything i tell you to do

Deaf and blind and dumb and born to follow
What you need is someone strong to guide you
Deaf and blind and dumb and born to follow
Let me lay my holy hand a, hand upon you

My god's will
Becomes me
When he speaks
He speaks through me
He has needs
Like i do
We both want
To rape you

Jesus christ, why don't you come save my life, now
Open my eyes, blind me with your light, now
Jesus christ, why don't you come save my life, now
Open my eyes, blind me with your lies, now

If you want to get your soul to heaven
Trust in me, now don't you judge or question
You are broken now, but faith can heal you
Just do everything i tell you to do
Jesus christ, why don't you come save my life, now
Open my eyes, blind me with your light, now
Jesus christ, why don't you come save my life, now
Open my eyes, blind me with your lies, now

Deaf and blind and dumb and born to follow
Let me lay my holy hand a, hand upon you

My god's will
Becomes me
When he speaks
He speaks through me
He has needs
Like i do
We both want
To rape you!

heavycola · Post by **heavycola** » Wed May 23, 2007 2:01 am

Daring Overlord5 wrote:In a response to the first post, God gave all of us free will to do what we choose. If he interveins, we don't have free will. You can think what you like and disreguard my post, that's your choice to do so.

What does catching smallpox have to do with free will? God DOES intervene all the time, apparently, so why does he do it so randomly?

Look i think my point is being missed.

I'm not very good at religeous matters, but basically you guys are asking and answering why, if there is so much evil and death (and that god loves us so much) why doesnt he step in.

yeah, almost - the question is why has his personality changed so much since biblical times? he intervened all the time back then, saved his people (and made them slaves), got angry, destroyed cities, the red sea thing, etc etc. And we UNDERSTAND him because he is behaving in a RECOGNISABLY HUMAN WAY. But not any more. Name me one compassionate human being you know who, given the right powers, would not wipe out malaria? or would not warn those pacific islanders that a tsunami was on its way?

This is not quite an argument about why god allows evil, it is abotu why such an anthropomorphic being, according to the bible, behaves today in such a different, arbitrary and cruel way. He is supposed to be timeless and immutable - but he's changed. What i want to know is how you explain this schizophrenia?

jay_a2j · Post by **jay_a2j** » Wed May 23, 2007 2:20 am

unriggable wrote:
Guiscard wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:
unriggable wrote:All I can say jay is bullshit. If Jesus didn't bodily ascend into heaven (we found his skeleton) how can we know any of that tale is true?

Please post a link! This I have to see!
Perhaps this is one of the few times we'll be in agreement, Jay!
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17328478/site/newsweek/

The article states:

This week the Discovery Channel, together with HarperSanFrancisco, announces the release of "The Jesus Family Tomb," a television documentary and a book that aim to show that the tomb next door to Tova Bracha's apartment, located in a nondescript suburb called East Talpiot, is, well, the family plot of Jesus Christ.

Jesus was NOT buried in a "family plot". He was placed in a borrowed tomb. Thus his bones would not be found in the family burial site. This is complete hogwash much like the Davinci Code.

Neutrino · Post by **Neutrino** » Wed May 23, 2007 2:30 am

jay_a2j wrote:
unriggable wrote:
Guiscard wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:
unriggable wrote:All I can say jay is bullshit. If Jesus didn't bodily ascend into heaven (we found his skeleton) how can we know any of that tale is true?

Please post a link! This I have to see!
Perhaps this is one of the few times we'll be in agreement, Jay!
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17328478/site/newsweek/

The article states:

This week the Discovery Channel, together with HarperSanFrancisco, announces the release of "The Jesus Family Tomb," a television documentary and a book that aim to show that the tomb next door to Tova Bracha's apartment, located in a nondescript suburb called East Talpiot, is, well, the family plot of Jesus Christ.

Jesus was NOT buried in a "family plot". He was placed in a borrowed tomb. Thus his bones would not be found in the family burial site. This is complete hogwash much like the Davinci Code.

I would like to point out that the Da Vinci Code was a work of fiction and should be treated as such. I am endlessly amazed at people who can get so worked up about something that was never meant to be true.

bob3603 · Post by **bob3603** » Wed May 23, 2007 3:40 am

Women are mysterious, therefore God must be a woman.

Also I find that article about Jesus' tomb less than convincing, and so did the reporters, hence the question mark in the title.

heavycola · Post by **heavycola** » Wed May 23, 2007 3:51 am

Re-un-threadjacking in progress:

Daring Overlord5 wrote:In a response to the first post, God gave all of us free will to do what we choose. If he interveins, we don't have free will. You can think what you like and disreguard my post, that's your choice to do so.

What does catching smallpox have to do with free will? God DOES intervene all the time, apparently, so why does he do it so randomly?

Look i think my point is being missed.

I'm not very good at religeous matters, but basically you guys are asking and answering why, if there is so much evil and death (and that god loves us so much) why doesnt he step in.

yeah, almost - the question is why has his personality changed so much since biblical times? he intervened all the time back then, saved his people (and made them slaves), got angry, destroyed cities, the red sea thing, etc etc. And we UNDERSTAND him because he is behaving in a RECOGNISABLY HUMAN WAY. But not any more. Name me one compassionate human being you know who, given the right powers, would not wipe out malaria? or would not warn those pacific islanders that a tsunami was on its way?

This is not quite an argument about why god allows evil, it is abotu why such an anthropomorphic being, according to the bible, behaves today in such a different, arbitrary and cruel way. He is supposed to be timeless and immutable - but he's changed. What i want to know is how you explain this schizophrenia?

DiM · Post by **DiM** » Wed May 23, 2007 4:19 am

here's how things are (imho)

way back in the past some people wanted power. they found some stupid people and told them a divine figure exists and he is watching over us. he is good and wants to help us but there's also another deity that's evil.
this was the first step. fooling people there's a god. second step was fooling them that some people (priests) are god's apprentices.

from that moment on the priests gained more and more power. look through the history and see the influence of church. in many places people support the spiritual leader more than they support their elected leader (president king, etc)

religion is merely a form of mass control.

unriggable · Post by **unriggable** » Wed May 23, 2007 5:23 am

Religion wasn't made to control. It was made to give answers. Look up 'Jhn Frum' on wikipedia.

Iliad · Post by **Iliad** » Wed May 23, 2007 5:25 am

it was a shortcut.

People wondered why this was there and how this worked and why were they here and because they didn't know what we know science wise they just said it was god and it developed from there.

Anarchist · Post by **Anarchist** » Wed May 23, 2007 5:31 am

heavycola wrote: yeah, almost - the question is why has his personality changed so much since biblical times? he intervened all the time back then, saved his people (and made them slaves), got angry, destroyed cities, the red sea thing, etc etc. And we UNDERSTAND him because he is behaving in a RECOGNISABLY HUMAN WAY. But not any more. Name me one compassionate human being you know who, given the right powers, would not wipe out malaria? or would not warn those pacific islanders that a tsunami was on its way?

This is not quite an argument about why god allows evil, it is abotu why such an anthropomorphic being, according to the bible, behaves today in such a different, arbitrary and cruel way. He is supposed to be timeless and immutable - but he's changed. What i want to know is how you explain this schizophrenia?

Good Arguement, personally I agree.

Guess it would explain why religion is ussually dedicated to teaching us to let go of our earthly attachments and human natures. However if you look into karma you will find that we create all these problems through our negative energy, this however would hint that god is simply someone watching over us, shouting that he loves us but is powerless to stop it.
Nor do we bother to listen.

I think religions are based off of fallicy, youll have better luck listening to your inner voice for answers then asking a bunch that depends on quotes from a book.

ofcourse this doesnt answer the question of why (s)he/they forced us down here to better understand the horrors of suffering, possibly so we can heal others? If that is the case why did the creator allow pain? Balance. This is also the arguement that Lucifer brought before him,(according to Luciferian) he accused god (Satan=the accuser) that suffering was wrong. (who knows?)

The arguement of free will is a relatively weak one, after all did your parents not advise you even though you had the choice not to listen?
The question then becomes why is god silent? Perhaps weve forgotten how to listen? Perhaps he has the answer that you seek, Im sure you wont find the answer here.

I sure wish god would intervene....

Guiscard · Post by **Guiscard** » Wed May 23, 2007 8:52 am

I like the quote from Ivan in Dostoyevsky's Brothers Karamazov:

Imagine that you are creating a fabric of human destiny with the object of making men happy in the end, giving them peace and rest at last, but that it was essential and inevitable to torture to death only one tiny creature- that baby beating its breast with its fist, for instance- and to found that edifice on its unavenged tears, would you consent to be the architect on those conditions?

Is this Free Will? Is God working in 'mysterious ways?' I don't want to believe in a God who allows such cruelty on the pretence of free will. And I can't see how anyone could were they to truly consider the evils in the world.

alex_white101 · Post by **alex_white101** » Wed May 23, 2007 8:53 am

heavycola wrote:Why is God myserious?

boredom?

Guiscard · Post by **Guiscard** » Wed May 23, 2007 9:04 am

unriggable wrote:
Guiscard wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:
unriggable wrote:All I can say jay is bullshit. If Jesus didn't bodily ascend into heaven (we found his skeleton) how can we know any of that tale is true?

Please post a link! This I have to see!
Perhaps this is one of the few times we'll be in agreement, Jay!
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17328478/site/newsweek/

I know what you were referring to. Our posts were obviously sarcastic. There are so many flaws with the case that it is seen as pretty farcical within the historical and archaeological community (of which I am a part). There are so many major misconceptions that it is not even worth discussing here. Just look up the reviews in any reputable archaeological journal. Even the criticisms section in Wikipedia will probably do.

All stories like this do, especially when linked with Hollywood directors, is increase the 'da-vinci code'ification of real history. We don't want ridiculous conjecture and conspiracy theories to sweep away the pursuit of genuine historical and archaeological fact. This story is, quite frankly, the biggest load of bollocks we've seen for a while. Anyone can take the conclusion they want to reach and hammer the evidence around it whilst ignoring contradictory facts and then make a discovery channel documentary to exploit the current fever over early-Christianity conspiracy theories. The ossuaries have been known about for many years. It isn't Christ. Get over it.

The Random One · Post by **The Random One** » Wed May 23, 2007 9:23 am

I'll answer, even though the questions was not meant at me, but directly (if stealthily) at jay.

I think God has no human emotions. God is never angry, nor happy. God doesn't hate, and doesn't love in a human way. God is eternal and unchanging.

Why does the Bible, then, say God gets angry or happy or all that? For the same reason a book might say "the river whispered" or "the trees wept": personification, a literary figure of speech. Add to that the fact that the Christian God is incomprehensible to humans' point of view and that other mythologies at the time had very human gods (take the Greek/Roman pantheon, for instance) and you'll see that it's very hard convincing people of a God if you don't give him some sort of human behaviour.

As for why God doesn't intervene, I believe there are certain rules that even God must adhere to (if you're a bastian of law, it doesn't go well to go around breaking rules does it?) but may break/bend them under extraordinary situations. What these extraordinary situations are, no one knows, and I too find it strange that getting a bunch of people through some city walls qualify and saving the chosen people from holocaust doesn't, but that makes more sense than any other explanation I've seen.

And so I managed to piss off both the Cristian nutjobs and the preaching atheists on the thread. Go me! \m/

About the tomb of Jesus, if there is a 1 in 600 chance of those names appearing in that, then in a population of 6000 there ought to be 10 tombs just like that. Does anyone know what was the local population at that time?

Guiscard · Post by **Guiscard** » Wed May 23, 2007 9:36 am

The Random One wrote: As for why God doesn't intervene, I believe there are certain rules that even God must adhere to (if you're a bastian of law, it doesn't go well to go around breaking rules does it?) but may break/bend them under extraordinary situations.

Why did he bend them a hell of a lot thousands of years ago, when the deaths which may have resulted (e.g. in battles) numbered in the thousands at most, but he does not bend them now when deaths are in their millions.

Surely the explanation that makes the most sense in this situation is that he doesn't exist!

And I'd have thought that, at the time people were being 'convinced', the fact that he was throwing rocks from the sky and turning water into wine and all that was pretty much a big clue that he was real. The personification thing is bollocks, quite frankly. I thought people didn't need convincing? Haven't we got free will? Is the point not for God to make us believe but to believe of our own accord?

viperbitex · Post by **viperbitex** » Wed May 23, 2007 10:05 am

Cathalocisim was created as a way to try and make people behave. Durning the Dark ages there were no cops or ways to enforce any type of laws, so what better way to make people stop pilaging and raping, then to put the wrath of "God" behind them as punishment. God is not mysterious. The Christian god was created as a way to control the masses threw fear. Satan was therefore also created to blame all the horrible things that men do on someone else. The great scapegoat (Goat..Satan...connection??). There are things in this world that we don't understand YET. Lightning used to be created by god, rain used to be created by god, everything that we don't understand we seem to rationalize it by saying "its gods doing!!". Eventually science will explain it all, once we stop spending all our money on bombs and plastic surgery.

And mad props to the Occams Razor refrence!!

one more thing I've been wondering about. So sex, lust, and gluttney are two big no-no's if you follow just about any christian, jewish, or islamic religion, correct?? sooooo lets say you lead a life obaying that mind set. You die. Humans enjoy sex, are very lustfull, and the more the better right? So if in heaven there is paradise, where you can alway do what yuo want, need for nothing, and have everything your way that makes you happy.....wouldn't heaven be chalk full of drug induced orgies?? I mean everyone would be beautiful and full of that good old angst of an 18 year old on viagra and meth, right? So would that make hell really heaven, because it would be full of dibachury and sinnfullness?? And would that make heaven more like a pergatory, where you must abstain from all the passions of life?? And there fore, by going on the Hell, and place of horrors and lots of uncomfortableness, not exist at all??

whoa, i've gone cross eyed.....

jay_a2j · Post by **jay_a2j** » Wed May 23, 2007 10:35 am

heavycola wrote:
Look i think my point is being missed.

I'm not very good at religeous matters, but basically you guys are asking and answering why, if there is so much evil and death (and that god loves us so much) why doesnt he step in.
yeah, almost - the question is why has his personality changed so much since biblical times? he intervened all the time back then, saved his people (and made them slaves), got angry, destroyed cities, the red sea thing, etc etc. And we UNDERSTAND him because he is behaving in a RECOGNISABLY HUMAN WAY. But not any more. Name me one compassionate human being you know who, given the right powers, would not wipe out malaria? or would not warn those pacific islanders that a tsunami was on its way?

This is not quite an argument about why god allows evil, it is abotu why such an anthropomorphic being, according to the bible, behaves today in such a different, arbitrary and cruel way. He is supposed to be timeless and immutable - but he's changed. What i want to know is how you explain this schizophrenia?

Ok, this is a theory not a fact. Its a thought that came to mind while reading heavy's post.

In the OT there was a purpose and a plan. Most, if not all, the interventions by God had to do with the Jews. The Jews had to (in order to make way for the Messiah) be taken out of slavery, conquer their enemies, and establish a nation in the promised land. So you have the plagues, parting of the Red Sea, pillar of cloud/fire, etc. God has not changed, Jesus came, completed His mission the rest is on us. Bad things happened in the OT, least we forget the flood?

In modern times, as bad as the Holocaust was, God used that for good and the fulfilment of prophesy because the Holocaust was the direct reason the Jews were granted their land once again. (Establishing Israel in 1948 as a result of WWII)

Why does god allow evil to happen? I don't know. Could he have prevented the Tsunami, earthquakes, famine? Yes. Some believe they serve as "wake up calls", some even "signs of the times". (You can not know the day nor the hour but you can know the season <by the signs>) I am only using "natural" disasters as examples because other death, 911 and such were man-made, thus free will.

Bertros Bertros · Post by **Bertros Bertros** » Wed May 23, 2007 10:57 am

jay_a2j wrote:
In modern times, as bad as the Holocaust was, God used that for good and the fulfilment of prophesy because the Holocaust was the direct reason the Jews were granted their land once again. (Establishing Israel in 1948 as a result of WWII)

Guiscard · Post by **Guiscard** » Wed May 23, 2007 11:31 am

jay_a2j wrote: In modern times, as bad as the Holocaust was, God used that for good and the fulfilment of prophesy because the Holocaust was the direct reason the Jews were granted their land once again. (Establishing Israel in 1948 as a result of WWII)

How was 9/11 free will but the holocaust not? Jay this is ridiculous. God, as an all-powerful being, could in the blink of an eye return the Jews to Israel without MURDERING 6 million of them! To say the holocaust was used to fulfil prophecy is absolutely ridiculous! Surely you've either got to go with the 100% free will aspect, or else God is cruel, vindictive and, basically, evil!

Colaalone · Post by **Colaalone** » Wed May 23, 2007 11:32 am

jay_a2j wrote:In modern times, as bad as the Holocaust was, God used that for good and the fulfilment of prophesy because the Holocaust was the direct reason the Jews were granted their land once again. (Establishing Israel in 1948 as a result of WWII)

So God was responsible for the Holocaust and saw it as good and beneficial towards something as petty as "prophecy"?
That's nauseating.

heavycola · Post by **heavycola** » Wed May 23, 2007 12:09 pm

Guiscard wrote:
jay_a2j wrote: In modern times, as bad as the Holocaust was, God used that for good and the fulfilment of prophesy because the Holocaust was the direct reason the Jews were granted their land once again. (Establishing Israel in 1948 as a result of WWII)
How was 9/11 free will but the holocaust not? Jay this is ridiculous. God, as an all-powerful being, could in the blink of an eye return the Jews to Israel without MURDERING 6 million of them! To say the holocaust was used to fulfil prophecy is absolutely ridiculous! Surely you've either got to go with the 100% free will aspect, or else God is cruel, vindictive and, basically, evil!

hear hear. I would also like to point out, jay, that the flod was very much a divine intervention. He was angry.
And as for using natural disasters as warnings of end times, wouldn't exploding millions of stars to spell out the words 'The end is nigh' in supernovas - just off the top of my head - be a more compassionate warning than putting millions to death? How does any of this make sense to you?

UCAbears · Post by **UCAbears** » Wed May 23, 2007 12:18 pm

he isnt mysterious.... read the bible

vtmarik · Post by **vtmarik** » Wed May 23, 2007 12:27 pm

If God did intervene, we would stop working and evolving and would rely on God to do everything. He doesn't get involved so we can continue to live for our own development and to better ourselves.

"You have to use a light touch... When you do things right, they won't be sure if you've done anything at all." - God

unriggable · Post by **unriggable** » Wed May 23, 2007 12:36 pm

[quote="jay_a2j]Ok, this is a theory not a fact. Its a thought that came to mind while reading heavy's post.[/quote]

Hypocrisy anyone?

In the OT there was a purpose and a plan. Most, if not all, the interventions by God had to do with the Jews. The Jews had to (in order to make way for the Messiah) be taken out of slavery, conquer their enemies, and establish a nation in the promised land. So you have the plagues, parting of the Red Sea, pillar of cloud/fire, etc. God has not changed, Jesus came, completed His mission the rest is on us. Bad things happened in the OT, least we forget the flood?

Stop treating everything in the Bible like it is fact! May I quote lord of the rings to give you the same effect?

BTW If God changes then something is wrong.

In modern times, as bad as the Holocaust was, God used that for good and the fulfilment of prophesy because the Holocaust was the direct reason the Jews were granted their land once again. (Establishing Israel in 1948 as a result of WWII)

I'm pretty sure the Allies established Israel, not God.

Why does god allow evil to happen? I don't know. Could he have prevented the Tsunami, earthquakes, famine? Yes. Some believe they serve as "wake up calls", some even "signs of the times". (You can not know the day nor the hour but you can know the season <by the signs>) I am only using "natural" disasters as examples because other death, 911 and such were man-made, thus free will.

You don't know because he doesn't let it happen. Humans let it happen. God doesn't stop them. I'm pretty sure he doesn't let good happen either, that is also caused by humans. It's all in your head![/b]

Why is god mysterious?

Re: Why is god mysterious?

Re: Why is god mysterious?