Malaysia Airlines Flight 17

[GoranZ]

Additional question is why the plane was flying on different route then the previous two days...

http://rt.com/news/173792-malaysian-pla ... d-warzone/

[BigBallinStalin]

Good day for Israel to deploy ground troops in Gaza.

Indeed... and in that war the number of civilian casualties is at least 10 times bigger then in Ukrainian civil war.

BTW How did all those prowesters over here concluded that rebel rocket take out the plane? I guess from fabricated news stories from the western media. SAM used to take the plane out has Soviet origin. Ukraine has it, officially rebels dont have it.

P.S. According to Spanish flight controller who was guiding the plane Ukrainians informed the flight control that the plane was take out by rocket immediately after it disappear out of radar, which according to his words is way too fast.

Spit up some sources, or we'll safely assume you're a crackpot.

Fair enough...
http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/2 ... e-but-does

Page not found.

[GoranZ]

Good day for Israel to deploy ground troops in Gaza.

Indeed... and in that war the number of civilian casualties is at least 10 times bigger then in Ukrainian civil war.

BTW How did all those prowesters over here concluded that rebel rocket take out the plane? I guess from fabricated news stories from the western media. SAM used to take the plane out has Soviet origin. Ukraine has it, officially rebels dont have it.

P.S. According to Spanish flight controller who was guiding the plane Ukrainians informed the flight control that the plane was take out by rocket immediately after it disappear out of radar, which according to his words is way too fast.

Spit up some sources, or we'll safely assume you're a crackpot.

Fair enough...
http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/2 ... e-but-does

Page not found.

I know... It was removed. As I previously said(I'm guessing) I guess that's act of CIA... Fox news cant undermine them... But its still enlisted on Google so the page was real: Google search(IDK how long will it stay there tho)
Same story... Russian sources:
http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/741248
http://slavyangrad.wordpress.com/2014/0 ... eing-mh17/

[BigBallinStalin]

Russians or/and pro-Russian Ukraine people shot it. Russians even took the black boxes. It will take a loooong time before they are retrieved, and if they are, they might give them the copies. Hopefully not the beginning of the WW3.

Over a plane? Not at all likely. The likelihood of saxitoxin becoming a pro-Israeli Orthodox Jew is higher.

Again, this isn't a big deal.


The reason why some people kill civilians is to get attention, spread fear, and have governments overreact--just like 9/11 and the events that followed.

Yeah, some people kill leaders to get attention, so why would the assassination of one Duke start a war?

There were more factors to it than some archduke being assassinated. The Guns of August by Barbara Tuchman gives a nice analysis. In short, if political leaders want to fight other countries, they'll use excuses to do so. The primary cause is a few, unconstrained political leaders in an age without nuclear weapons.

More importantly, the issue is about likelihood--not single points in history, but trends. Of all the assassinations in world history, how many have led to a world war?

Not that I think this one event will trigger a world war, but the reactions show that our world political dynamics have altered dramatically.

I'm not so sure. 9/11 gave US policymakers the 'right' political climate in order to launch two wars. The 'communists among us' gave US policymakers the right climate to violate people's rights while cracking down on potentially dangerous American commies. Pearl Harbor propelled the US public and its leaders into a much more costly conflict.

The difference is that this is a downed passenger airliner within a conflict zone. This has happened before, and hardly anything comes of it. That's what people seem to be forgetting ITT.

[BigBallinStalin]

Good day for Israel to deploy ground troops in Gaza.

Indeed... and in that war the number of civilian casualties is at least 10 times bigger then in Ukrainian civil war.

BTW How did all those prowesters over here concluded that rebel rocket take out the plane? I guess from fabricated news stories from the western media. SAM used to take the plane out has Soviet origin. Ukraine has it, officially rebels dont have it.

P.S. According to Spanish flight controller who was guiding the plane Ukrainians informed the flight control that the plane was take out by rocket immediately after it disappear out of radar, which according to his words is way too fast.

Spit up some sources, or we'll safely assume you're a crackpot.

Fair enough...
http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/2 ... e-but-does

lol, site does not exist or the page you are looking for has either moved or is no longer available.

WTF..yeah I'll stick with official news from Aus thanks.

I guess that's act of CIA... Fox news cant undermine them... But its still enlisted on Google so the page was real: Google search(IDK how long will it stay there tho)
Same story... Russian sources:
http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/741248
http://slavyangrad.wordpress.com/2014/0 ... eing-mh17/

What about this?(this is undermining the source from where your news agency claims the news)
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-1 ... ight-mh-17


I guess you can kiss your ass with your aus fake news

Let's step back and calm down.

The aus news said that Igor Whoever MAY have done it.

Your source says that the Ukrainian military MAY have done it. (or rather, some Spanish ATC guy said the military did it. That story says a bunch of stuff that doesn't make much sense, but hey).

So, how does "maybe" become "certainly"?

[Agent 86]

Well who cares, the World is one sick fucked up place for this to happen!!!!

[virus90]

Being Dutch i am deeply touched by this horrible news, luckily i havent heard that i directly know 1 of the victims but i know some of the people i know do and are now grieving for there loss.
I cant understand why you would shoot down a passenger plane filled with 300 people who are totally not involved in this conflict. Its an act of terror in my eyes, and the involved should be held responsible.

[BigBallinStalin]

Well who cares, the World is one sick fucked up place for this to happen!!!!

Outside of war zones, since 1970-2007 about 300 people worldwide die from terrorist acts per year.

Roughly 200 people die per year in the US from lightning strikes. 200 per year from peanut allergies. About 37,000 per year from car collisions. [John Mueller. Terror, Security, and Money]. Where are the cries of a sick world on these matters?

Over the history of humankind, violence as measured in homicides and from casualties in wars have been decreasing.
[Stephen Pinker. The Better Angels of Ourselves].


The world isn't sick; it's getting better. Sure, there's a few who intentionally or unintentionally kill civilians, and these few tend to be aided by governments, but that's no reason to cry, "the World is one sick fucked up place for this to happen!!!" It simply isn't; only a few individuals are sick and fucked up.

[BigBallinStalin]

Being Dutch i am deeply touched by this horrible news, luckily i havent heard that i directly know 1 of the victims but i know some of the people i know do and are now grieving for there loss.
I cant understand why you would shoot down a passenger plane filled with 300 people who are totally not involved in this conflict. Its an act of terror in my eyes, and the involved should be held responsible.

If the aus news is correct, then it seems that some pro-Russian insurgents thought they were shooting down a Ukrainian military plane.

Here's another way to think about it. Even if the target was known to be civilian but a few of the passengers were insurgents/government officials fighting some war against whoever, for many it makes sense to blow up the plane. That's the logic of US drone strikes. For every suspected terrorist killed, roughly 3-10 civilians are killed.

Or look at any large-scale war. Plenty of civilians are destroyed--for 'understandable' reasons.

[AndyDufresne]

Being Dutch i am deeply touched by this horrible news, luckily i havent heard that i directly know 1 of the victims but i know some of the people i know do and are now grieving for there loss.
I cant understand why you would shoot down a passenger plane filled with 300 people who are totally not involved in this conflict. Its an act of terror in my eyes, and the involved should be held responsible.

If the aus news is correct, then it seems that some pro-Russian insurgents thought they were shooting down a Ukrainian military plane.

Here's another way to think about it. Even if the target was known to be civilian but a few of the passengers were insurgents/government officials fighting some war against whoever, for many it makes sense to blow up the plane. That's the logic of US drone strikes. For every suspected terrorist killed, roughly 3-10 civilians are killed.

Or look at any large-scale war. Plenty of civilians are destroyed--for 'understandable' reasons.

Right. Collateral damage is the name of the game in conflict unfortunately -- just look at Israel and Hamas as well, or any other number of conflicts going back to "Hey man, I was just sitting here minding my own business, carving this rock, unaffiliated with your side or that dude further off in the distance, and you pelted me with your frickin' rock. Not cool, man. Not cool."


--Andy

[DaGip]

In the Chinese zodiac, it is bad luck when it is your year (e.g. dragons have bad luck in the year of the dragon). This year it is the year of the horse. In Chinese, Malaysian Airlines is called 马航. 马 also means horse.

The Russians are merely agents of nature, a karmic force. We must respect their divine intervention.

I love you.

[nagerous]

Good day for Israel to deploy ground troops in Gaza.

Indeed... and in that war the number of civilian casualties is at least 10 times bigger then in Ukrainian civil war.

BTW How did all those prowesters over here concluded that rebel rocket take out the plane? I guess from fabricated news stories from the western media. SAM used to take the plane out has Soviet origin. Ukraine has it, officially rebels dont have it.

P.S. According to Spanish flight controller who was guiding the plane Ukrainians informed the flight control that the plane was take out by rocket immediately after it disappear out of radar, which according to his words is way too fast.

Spit up some sources, or we'll safely assume you're a crackpot.

Fair enough...
http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/2 ... e-but-does

Interesting that article has been removed, maybe it was a hoax but I did see the Spanish Twitter account dude and it was an old account that seemed legit

http://socioecohistory.wordpress.com/20 ... eing-mh17/

[nagerous]

Found it, the fact he has history makes it sound like he is a troll. Was curious about a possible frame job/global conspiracy malarkey

http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/2 ... r-traffic/

[DaGip]

I guess you can kiss your ass with your aus fake news

LOL! DAHBOO_7!

That conspiracy-nut speaks out of his ass! He sounds like Michelangelo from the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles!

He lost his credibility when he had all his viewers go to a fake website that claimed NASA was going to give a press conference on "Something important". When the final date came for the special announcement from NASA, all his viewers clicked on the link on the webpage. This is what they got:



DAHBOO_7 immediately deleted any of his videos that was related to this Super Troll of the year. He even rerecorded one of his videos and claimed that "he was suspicious" of the website, when that was not the case. He should had just admitted that he got took instead of lying and then erasing his videos that proved he got took.

I don't trust anything that comes out of DAHBOO's mouth.

[JBlombier]

I don't know how this news is travelling around the world, but as virus90 pointed out, this is huge news in The Netherlands. Of course because the large amount of people that died in the crash, but also because there is a (not to be underestimated) impact this can have on our lives. We hope for the best and the UN should react immediately. Does someone know if they are going to?

[BigBallinStalin]

I don't know how this news is travelling around the world, but as virus90 pointed out, this is huge news in The Netherlands. Of course because the large amount of people that died in the crash, but also because there is a (not to be underestimated) impact this can have on our lives. We hope for the best and the UN should react immediately. Does someone know if they are going to?

How can the deaths of 190 Dutch people from a downed plane in a conflict zone have any strong impact on the Netherlands? How many Dutch die from natural disasters, car wrecks, and allergies per year? Have such higher deaths led to any meaningful impact on Dutch society?

It's huge news because people dying in unexpected ways (no matter how small the number of deaths) really sells in the media. It's not like most people stop to think: "gee, this event is an aberration, has resulted in relatively few deaths, and is extremely unlikely."

Since resources are scarce, one faces trade-offs. Would you like the UN or whoever to burn resources on security (and rhetoric), or would you rather that money be spent on anything which can save more lives with greater likelihood?

[JBlombier]

You know, BBS. You're right and of course you know that. But it's not necesarry to be rational at all times.

[GoranZ]

I don't know how this news is travelling around the world, but as virus90 pointed out, this is huge news in The Netherlands. Of course because the large amount of people that died in the crash, but also because there is a (not to be underestimated) impact this can have on our lives. We hope for the best and the UN should react immediately. Does someone know if they are going to?

I think you should stop adding more jobs to UN when it is failing to finish the jobs they already have.

Additionally there are several problems with the crash:
-How and why plane went down? Mechanical problem, collision with another military plane, taken out by surface to air missile etc.
-Why it was flying off course(It should have been over Azov Sea instead into the middle of military conflict).
-Who is profiting from the crash, and who is losing?
-Does the crash changing public opinion?

At the moment the most probable reason for the crash of the plane is surface to air missile, but before anyone accuses proRussian forces he needs to prove that they have capabilities for achieving that(u need much more then a weapon, u need crew also).
Who is profiting from this whole mess? Big winner is US and Izrael, after which comes puppet Ukrainian government. As usually losers are EU(public opinion is shifted for harder sanctions towards Russia) and Russia. Usualy the one that profits from something is the one that is responsible for the event.

Something else that I find interesting is how can experienced SAM crew mix civilian with military aircraft 60 km from Russian border on 10 km height? According to me the chances are 0 for this.

[Phatscotty]

Has there been confirmation if 23 Americans were on board?

[Megane]

Air Flight 655 (July 3, 1988)

August 1988 report from the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff called the shoot-down of an civilian airliner over the Persian Gulf by a U.S. guided missile cruiser "a tragic and regrettable accident." There were 290 people on board, including 16 crewmembers.

[mrswdk]

Around 100 AIDS researchers were on board. Obviously this was set up by the CIA, as they don't want the disease they created to be cured.

[GoranZ]

Around 100 AIDS researchers were on board. Obviously this was set up by the CIA, as they don't want the disease they created to be cured.

Not only CIA, Pharmaceutical companies might also have their fingers in the event.

Another very interesting question... Why would Ukraine have active SAMs in the area when it is widely known that proRussian rebels dont have planes.

[BigBallinStalin]

You know, BBS. You're right and of course you know that. But it's not necesarry to be rational at all times.

It's very necessary; otherwise, voters, politicians, and bureaucrats will overreact by spending (i.e. wasting) plenty of resources to deter threats which are extremely unlikely and of relatively little consequence.

Look at how the US public and its politicians overreacted to 9/11. We've sunk about $1 trillion in homeland security spending from 2001 to 2011, invaded two countries (the cost of which is at least $1.5 trillion), and failed to develop them (so AFG and Iraq are basically in civil wars or at least worse than where they were before). Finally, about half of the US public that was polled still thinks terrorism is a serious threat. That concern has fallen by 5% over 10 years. So, none of these policies alleviated that concern (in fact, that concern is exacerbated in order to justify further waste).

That's what happens when people think, "it's not necessary to be rational at all times."

With $3.5 trillion wasted, think of the opportunity costs. The US government could've developed a cure for cancer, a cure for AIDS, and have greatly mitigated the consequences of global warming for the next 100 years. Or, that money could've been spent by the citizens themselves on stuff that actually makes them better off. Instead, we got $3.5 trillion dollars of more stuff for killing people and other stuff that doesn't really making anyone safer.

[PLAYER57832]

The difference is that this is a downed passenger airliner within a conflict zone. This has happened before, and hardly anything comes of it. That's what people seem to be forgetting ITT.

Apparently, air lines have been shot down only handful of times.

Not that surprising since air travel only become popular after WWII.

A better analogy is to cruise ships. More than a few of those have been sunk.

[PLAYER57832]

Why would someone fly a commercial airliner over an area where there is a military conflict going on? I am not a scholar, but I am a thinker, and it seems like a bad idea to me.

I have not read enough to know who did it either so I won't blame anyone.

News sources are saying that the area was considered safe, as long as the planes stayed high enough. The analogy I heard is that if a a road is open, you assume its safe. My response is that I NEVER assume a road is "safe". Too many things can happen, but apparently a lot of airlines flew over this area, it was not an unusual move as some are trying to imply.

Even so, many airlines did, of their own volition, avoid the area. The area is now declared unsafe and many airlines are now moving even further away than the recommended safety zone.