To argue, or not to argue

[targetman377]

I'm boycotting your poll because I'm agnostic and your narrow range of options marginalizes me.

Yeah, not bullets for agnosticism.....can't vote.

what about agnostics?? do they not count

Gnosticism and agnosticism is about whether you KNOW something. It applies to everything, not just the religious question. I am thorough agnostic about what the woman that just walked past my window had for dinner yesterday for example. A theist can be agnostic too, they could claim to believe a God exists without KNOWING that the God exists.

Theism and athiesm is about whether you BELIEVE in God. If you cannot say "I believe that God exists" truthfully, regardless of the reason why, then you are an atheist.

Only the religious have dogmatically claimed that atheism is a claim to know that there is no God. Atheism has absolutely NOTHING to do with knowledge claims, it's about how you answer one simple yes/no question:

"Do you hold the positive belief that God(s) exist?"

Answer yes to that and you're a theist (or possibly deist), regardless of how certain you are about your answer. Answer no to that and you're an atheist, again regardless of how certain you are in your answer.

And if my answer to that is I don't know? it may be a yes or no question but my truthful answer is i don't know one way or the other. I don't lean either way.

[crispybits]

You don't know what you believe, or you don't know the answer to the question "does God exist?"

Edit - to try and simplify, lets ask two questions:

1. I know with reasonable certainty whether God(s) exist(s) or not
(a) True
(b) False

Anyone answering (a) is gnostic, anyone answering (b) is agnostic. Notice that the question is a choice between having knowledge or lacking knowledge. If you claim to KNOW, then you are a gnostic. For all other states like "I'm pretty sure but not certain" then you are agnostic. There are no shades of grey in between the two states where you can be "partially gnostic".

2. I believe that God(s) do(es) exist
(a) True
(b) False

Anyone answering (a) is theist, anyone answering (b) is atheist. Once again, it's a choice between having a belief or lacking the belief. If you do believe then you are a theist, regardless of the certainty of your belief. For all other states like "I don't have a belief one way or another" then you are an atheist. Just as with gnosticism, you cannot be "partially theist".

Say a car pulled up in front of you. Very easily, you would KNOW whether the car is red or not, and you would believe the same thing as you know. It is a red car. Now say you've got a blindfold on and a car pulls up in front of you. You have no way of KNOWING whether or not the car is red or not, so you are agnostic. If you want to make a leap of faith and believe that the car is red then you are a "red-car-ist". If you lack the belief that the car is red, either because you believe it's blue or because you refuse to commit to any belief about the colour of the car or you think it is actually a bus, then you are an "a-red-car-ist". As in you are simply not a "red-car-ist". You have no positive belief that the car is red.

*Just a footnote, I'm using theism here as shorthand for a broad range of beliefs of the general nature "God(s) exist(s)", to cover pantheism, polytheism, deism, etc etc. I'd write out all the variants each time but it would turn into one hell of a long post....

Edit 2 - that chart I first posted is probably a bit misleading, here's a more accurate one:



Anyone on the blue line at the top is gnostic, anyone anywhere else is agnostic

Anyone on the red line at the right is theist, anyone anywhere else is atheist.

Anyone in that top right corner is a gnostic theist.

Anyone anywhere in the middle of the box for any reason is an agnostic atheist.