Balance Not Included Mafia 3/12 End Game: Balance. Town Wins

[StorrZerg]

UNVOTE

Am I too late?

Your a donkey if you think i hammered. Considering i had the lead vote on him for a while

Jonty put him l-1

i then unvoted.

[Metsfanmax]

In fact, the second push i presented against you, he didn't defend. I assume that was cause he thought the second push against you was reasonable and worth looking at.

Correct.

Mets suggested a no lynch, which is stupid and scummy if you ask me. We have no idea how the game is imbalanced and just because it may be does not mean "jesters, and tigers and bombs" oh my. A no lynch is never an option unless Town truly is at a dead end.

No, I suggested avoiding a no lynch. That second post was merely pointing out that we should be careful, and aware of the risks when we're lynching.

[Streaker]

DISCLAIMER

Silver_Samus uses transform, and becomes Streaker. I will now continue with this account, as access is restored and the Silver account blocked. Yes, this has been worked out together with support so no reason to report me.
I once again apologize for the situation.

END DISCLAIMER

So, a one shot vig? Ready to shoot blindly into the night? I think I'm willing to let you do just that.
If we dont lynch virus, we'll need another. D1 inactive lynch? I'll need to check all posts again to see who would fit.

There are a few though posting plenty, without actually helping. But that's probably better served on D2.

[mtamburini]

UNVOTE

Am I too late?

Your a donkey if you think i hammered. Considering i had the lead vote on him for a while

Jonty put him l-1

i then unvoted.

SUPER dyslexia moment there

[Iron Butterfly]

DISCLAIMER

Silver_Samus uses transform, and becomes Streaker. I will now continue with this account, as access is restored and the Silver account blocked. Yes, this has been worked out together with support so no reason to report me.
I once again apologize for the situation.

END DISCLAIMER

So, a one shot vig? Ready to shoot blindly into the night? I think I'm willing to let you do just that.
If we dont lynch virus, we'll need another. D1 inactive lynch? I'll need to check all posts again to see who would fit.

There are a few though posting plenty, without actually helping. But that's probably better served on D2.

Why would you let a one shot vig shoot blindly?

[mtamburini]

tamboooo help me lynch a mafia

and if you are mafia, do me a favor and just start a lynch on your buddy kthx

I still think Virus might be mafia, after now realizing I cant read. Your back in my good books.

With the ability to "prove himself" sort a say I could lay off of him for today. I think James or silver would be a good push. I didnt like james read on virus it didnt really make any sense to me. This is a text based game and says he doesnt read into virus posts because of a language barrier. I think that is redonkulous. The best example I can give is Gab, he has a pretty big barrier when it comes to the english language but I feel I can still get a read on the way he posts and how he is going about his posting. To not look into someones post because of that reason is complete BS to me.

[StorrZerg]

Is virus off the block? Sorta. He still needs to give more input, since his reads are a bit vague.

So as self proclaimed mayor of this game people need to present and push cases.

If virus fails to contribute more we can lynch him

[StorrZerg]

vote Djfireside

Cause yeah.

[pancakemix]

DISCLAIMER

Silver_Samus uses transform, and becomes Streaker. I will now continue with this account, as access is restored and the Silver account blocked. Yes, this has been worked out together with support so no reason to report me.
I once again apologize for the situation.

END DISCLAIMER

So, a one shot vig? Ready to shoot blindly into the night? I think I'm willing to let you do just that.
If we dont lynch virus, we'll need another. D1 inactive lynch? I'll need to check all posts again to see who would fit.

There are a few though posting plenty, without actually helping. But that's probably better served on D2.

Why would you let a one shot vig shoot blindly?

At this juncture, I don't see the harm. It's not as informed as we would like, but it's going to be better than nothing. The question ought to be whether or not you believe the claim, not whether or not we should let him shoot. Because if we don't lynch him today, that begets a lot of different scenarios, some of which are actual-WFIOM-not-Mets-WIFOM, some which are not. Personally, I think if you explore the potential outcomes based on the nigh't outcome if we let him live, it does not benefit us.

That being said, I have to stick to my guns in Mets. Beyond what I've already stated, I find ignoring an argument (and a player!) to be poor play and scummy play at that. I feel that I ultimately made a simple request:

What I want are some reasonable insights. If not virus, then who? And don't say random lynch is fine, because that's of no benefit to anyone.

The closest thing I got to that (and obviously it was not direct, seeing as Mets believes the silent treatment is a valid strategy) was a piss-poor spoonfed response:

In fact, the second push i presented against you, he didn't defend. I assume that was cause he thought the second push against you was reasonable and worth looking at.

Correct.

All this to say I think Mets would rather coast than actually engage in debate, seeing as his preference for debate begins and ends with "Meh, no" and "Meh, okay".

STORR STOP FASTPOSTING ME

[strike wolf]

Cant mak a vote count right now but my preliminary count would put Virus at L-3. Prods will be going out soon.

[StorrZerg]

@ pm I do not find mets actions regarding your arguments alignment indicative.

Please stop tunneling on only him.

PM what is your opinion on ib? How about spiesr?

[pancakemix]

@ pm I do not find mets actions regarding your arguments alignment indicative.

Please stop tunneling on only him.

PM what is your opinion on ib? How about spiesr?

Good for you. You ARE the one who spoonfed him an out on virus, so I'm not surprised you'd think that. Riddle me this: do you think resolving to ignore someone is a legitimate way to end a debate?

On spiesr: He's posting deliberate and well thought out arguments. As usual. Not particularly notable so I couldn't say one way or the other about his alignment, but I always think his style is the bee's knees. Of note, he did post this, which is what I've been saying the whole time: the original virus case was valid but admittedly weak.

On IB: Again, he's playing true to form. Few words, but he says what's on his mind. I tend to agree with his virus assessment, but again, I have yet to see a reason to shift.

[mtamburini]

vote Djfireside

Cause yeah.

I like this vote only because I have no idea who this is. Are they even in this game ?

[Metsfanmax]

That being said, I have to stick to my guns in Mets. Beyond what I've already stated, I find ignoring an argument (and a player!) to be poor play and scummy play at that. I feel that I ultimately made a simple request:

What I want are some reasonable insights. If not virus, then who? And don't say random lynch is fine, because that's of no benefit to anyone.

I answered this request by voting for you and giving you reasons why I voted for you.

[Djfireside]

vote Djfireside

Cause yeah.

I like this vote only because I have no idea who this is. Are they even in this game ?

Yeah Im catching up on what occurred today. Overall had Wife/Job Aggro so got into a fun position. Got the prod and will post up thoughts shortly. My apologies to the rest of you.

[StorrZerg]

np
i eagerly await

[pancakemix]

That being said, I have to stick to my guns in Mets. Beyond what I've already stated, I find ignoring an argument (and a player!) to be poor play and scummy play at that. I feel that I ultimately made a simple request:

What I want are some reasonable insights. If not virus, then who? And don't say random lynch is fine, because that's of no benefit to anyone.

I answered this request by voting for you and giving you reasons why I voted for you.

Well, I'm glad you decided to talk to me. You're still only reading half my posts, but we'll call it progress.

I guess you're talking about this?

vote pancakemix, this time I'm serious. This entire argument has either been the worst mafia argument I've ever seen (in which case we need to drop you now) or the same misdirection you're accusing me of, in which case by your own logic you need to be lynched because you're scum. Good day.

Because normally you use, like, facts to back up arguments but these are just claims. I clearly explained my position and explained my arguments and how you were wrong. Please progress beyond easy, copout answers.

Also I'm impressed how you gave me an answer (a bad one, but an answer) before I even made the request. You would have known that if you'd read my posts, but again, we're making progress.

[spiesr]

Hmmm, I have some misgivings about Virus's claim that make me want to vote for him, but since it is primarily derived from balance reasons, which this game may lack, I am not sure about acting on it .

Let's be honest. Probably 2 town fighting with pm and mets.

Cool it with each other, look else where for a lynch. I don't see a point lynching either of you guys today.

I KNOW YOU JUST DIDNT SAY THAT, if this was DM group Id rally a to get a noose around your neck but I do not think there is enough time in the day to get that done and I am skeptical of my vote on Virus. GMEOY Storr you have entered my scum list.

One of the big things Ive noticed playing video mafia over the past year is that scum tend to like to point out and use the phrase "2 towns fighting" It helps a lot more than you may think.

Can you offer some explanation of this point? Why are scum more likely to mention that they think both players in an argument are town, and therefor Storr is more likely to be scum for having done so? Is it because they know that both of them are town and it is slipping out, or alternatively one of the arguers is a scum buddy and they want to seed to idea of them being town? Is it just some correlation you have observed that you have no explanation for?

unvote, vote Virus for scummarining and as a 1-shot vig, you wouldn't shoot N1, even if you were outed, and also claiming a killing role seems a very easy fakeclaim for mafia (granted this is WIFOM) but the scummarining is the main point.

This seems kinda bandwagony, but in my experience with Jonty I know that the idea that a Vig shouldn't shoot Night 1/anytime they aren't certain is one that he has been exposed to and probably absorbed himself. So, I can understand why he would cast this vote.

[Metsfanmax]

vote pancakemix, this time I'm serious. This entire argument has either been the worst mafia argument I've ever seen (in which case we need to drop you now) or the same misdirection you're accusing me of, in which case by your own logic you need to be lynched because you're scum. Good day.

Because normally you use, like, facts to back up arguments but these are just claims. I clearly explained my position and explained my arguments and how you were wrong. Please progress beyond easy, copout answers.

The entirety of my position is explained in, like, the last three pages. I don't need to recount all of them in the post where I vote in order for them to be more than, like, "claims."

Also I'm impressed how you gave me an answer (a bad one, but an answer) before I even made the request.

Well, as it happens I do have some (limited) powers of logical deduction and although they are weak, they were enough to surmise that what you wanted was something other than "this case on virus is bad." You had outright said this or hinted at it several times before, as had multiple other people in response to my posts. So, there's no need to be impressed.

I believe I have done everything you have asked of me, and therefore you should feel obliged to unvote. (If you think my insights are not reasonable simply because you disagree with me, then that is your problem and certainly not mine because it is not my obligation to argue with you ad infinitum over an issue for which all of the essential arguments have already been stated. The position was a reasonable insight insofar as I gave a number of arguments in support of my position over a number of posts. There is nothing new to be gained by continuing that discussion, because if it becomes a discussion about the definition of WIFOM as it pertains to mafia then it completely loses relevance to the current discussion and only serves to obfuscate the game instead of clarifying it. This is why I ended up voting for you, because by your quite reasonable standard that is the tactic mafia use to confuse the game, and I am refusing to participate further in that conversation for this reason. Proof enough that you are not actually interested in allowing the truth to come out here is that you have openly implied that if I admit to being incorrect about the inference being WIFOM -- which I wasn't -- then I deserve to be lynched for the grave crime of misunderstanding an acronym.)

There are 10 other players in this mafia game besides you and me. Apparently I am the only one being held to the standard of explicating a pages long essay including fact checking and references on who my favorite D1 target is and why, while other people are getting off easy with "vote virus." You're absurd.

[Streaker]

unvote, vote Virus for scummarining and as a 1-shot vig, you wouldn't shoot N1, even if you were outed, and also claiming a killing role seems a very easy fakeclaim for mafia (granted this is WIFOM) but the scummarining is the main point.

Could you explain a bit more why you think he is scummarining?

[Streaker]

unvote, vote Virus for scummarining and as a 1-shot vig, you wouldn't shoot N1, even if you were outed, and also claiming a killing role seems a very easy fakeclaim for mafia (granted this is WIFOM) but the scummarining is the main point.

Could you explain a bit more (why) how you think he is scummarining?

EBWOP

-----------

I feel that at this point we are not going to lynch virus. I also feel he should probably use his power this night for multiple reasons:

1)If we see a NK in the morning it basicly confirms his claim
2)If he does not use his kill, and his claim is true, mafia are likely to take out the guy with a kill ability

Why would a blind (educated guess) shot in the night be any less random or risky for town then a lynch on D1?
Unvote

I'm also looking at HotShot as the most inactive player of the bunch, however he did warn us about it in advance.

Now I think Jonty should be lynched today. I dont have much but in my eyes enough for lynch:

Reasoning was 2 part jonty. I'd hardly consider outing someone as a role with your first post a joke.

See, I disagree that virus outed spiesr, I think spiesr was just confirming in a different way.

This post was made 3 days ago.

Now this:

unvote, vote Virus for scummarining and as a 1-shot vig, you wouldn't shoot N1, even if you were outed, and also claiming a killing role seems a very easy fakeclaim for mafia (granted this is WIFOM) but the scummarining is the main point.

This post and VOTE was made right after the claim from virus, when he was at L-2, this vote made him at L-1 RIGHT after a claim. Looking for a fast lynch after outed power role with a kill?

This is enough for me.

Vote jonty

[strike wolf]

Vote Count

DJfireside (2)-Spiesr, StorrZerg
Virus90 (3)-Iron Butterfly, Hotshot, Jonty
MetsfanMax (1)-Pancake
Storrzerg (1)-Jamesker
Streaker
Pancakemix (1)-Metsfanmax
Iron butterfly (1)-Virus90
Jonty (1)-Streaker

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch

Deadline in 14'30 hours

[Metsfanmax]

1)If we see a NK in the morning it basicly confirms his claim

No it does not. Obviously mafia have a NK, and it is likely that there are more killing roles in this game than that.

2)If he does not use his kill, and his claim is true, mafia are likely to take out the guy with a kill ability

Not necessarily. Mafia have a situation on their hands which makes their decision tricky, assuming that virus is town. If virus saves his kill for now and they kill him, then they're making our jobs as town easier because we no longer have to try to guess whether he is in fact town. Leaving him alive means that we may still lynch him for them on D2, especially if virus doesn't use his one shot. Town really has no way to confirm whether virus used his kill at night*; even if two people die tonight that doesn't guarantee anything. Plus, since everyone in this game is a power role, town loses by virus using his kill; unless he randomly hits mafia by chance, we're trading a power role to turn virus into a VT.

*Our best tactic might be to tell virus who we want him to target. Then, if mafia want to keep the confusion alive, they'll have to target the same person. That would be a tough call, because they'd have to balance that against the possibility of a second NK, which is also very good for them. If I were them, I'd do the second NK.

[jonty125]

OK looking back virus hasn't scummarined. His laying low comment caught my eyes as scummarining.

And Streaker, I put him at L-1, with a claim on the board, there is nothing wrong with that, I aren't looking for a fast lynch, if I had hammered him I would understand your case but as of now I don't. Also, yes I changed my opinion on virus but the game changes with time, and the case on virus changed in that time, so naturally my opinion changes.

[Djfireside]

What the hell... If things havent gone from bad to worse.... I wrote up a whole thing last night and thought I posted it but alas nothing here. Well I guess it works out since I had been thinking about this overnight.

I had been caught up until 2 days ago when everything hit the fan but in just yesterday the amount of debate over a single statement and how much it was held on to was unbelieveable. Yes, there are more town on this day than any other and everything is grasping at straws. Storr had gotten the case going and it was flying around and one single statement caused so much trouble. Here is my synapsis thus far and unfortunately all my research from yesterday is gone so I will recreate some.

Virus: The statement I can see as a Joke, whether it was or not I can believe it. I thought it was from the start but as I always say you need to stir the pot somehow so I took it at that even though it went way out of control. Do I believe that they were role fishing, No. So if things stopped there no worries. However their defense was subpar and the laying low defense and playing off mTam and Storr just seemed weird. Not to mention the Claim does not sit well with me. Overall flavor of the Charecter would either be Joat or straight vig but sits weird on me overall.

Storr: You seemed to have been the focal point of all the finger pointing and someone has to do it but the instant anyone started to turn you pointed at someone else. You were playing a large game of misdirection and that caught me off since you were playing this large game of hot potato. I was inclined to not like your believe on having virus use the one shot but since others have made similiar points I cant fault you on it. I am a bit skeptical of you and mTam, just based on the overall movement and voting structures but cant point one way or another. PLus wont fault your vote either but yeah..

mTam: Yes I am in the game just trying to keep my head above water

Spies: Staying neutral and I can see the vote on me so I dont fault him for it based on my inactivity and prior comment.

Mets: Some of your posts have caught me a little weird but you have made good strides and you latest post on what to do with Virus has merit.

James / Hotshot -- Much like myself havent contributed much and Hotshots vote left me feeling off since I have my own inclinations against storr but just a random vote to keep things even as a reason was less that noteable.

I wont hit everyone since there is no point but what do we do now.

The problem with an outted vig is there is ALWAYS the block and bus especially when you are trying to tell them who to hit. I dont like that he is a one shot and that overall is what is bothering me the most based on the setup of the game and flavor of the char. If we run into the night, and he uses his kill there is a 27% success rate at this point which is less that optimum. Truthfully from all my ranting and thinking I have found I dont believe them.

Vote Virus90