D-Day: Omaha Beach! [Quenched]

yeti_c · Post by **yeti_c** » Sat May 26, 2007 7:58 am

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19887

See ya round Mibi... you'll be back!!!

C.

Wisse · Post by **Wisse** » Sat May 26, 2007 8:00 am

just use the starting neutral terretorys xml...

DiM · Post by **DiM** » Sat May 26, 2007 8:15 am

Coleman wrote:
DiM wrote:
Coleman wrote: You know, it's also possible for someone to start with the entire beach or ship line in a 3 player game. Probable? No. But it is possible. I bet in classic someone could start with all of Asia and the first turn, maybe classic is unplayable too.

yes it is possible to start with the entire beach line but that's less probable because the beachline has more terits. and yes in a 3 player game someone could start with asia but again the probability would be much smaller then starting with australia. and classic is not unplayable because asia gives a fair bonus of 7 for 12 terits and 4 borders while here the artilery gives the same bonus but for just 6 terits and same borders.
I think this is offset by the nature of the rest of the map and the temptation to attack out of the front of the artillery instead of in the conventional way via the trenches and the other adjacent territories.

actually no. if i start with the trenches i'm not determined by the map layout to attack in a certain direction. that's silly. why would i do that? just because there's a beach and some arrows? that means most people will go for NA on the classic map because US is the "land of all possibilities"

so clearly that's not a factor to take into consideration. a good player will attack where he needs to attack not where the arrows point

Coleman wrote:The trenches also help make it harder to keep the 'simple' bonuses in much the same way the ones with more territories are harder to hold just from having more territories.

and trenches actually help to keep those bonuses by providing a fast route between the bunkers and if you take the 2 trenches in front of the central and western bunkers you'll not olnly be able to move between trenches faster but you'll also have less borders to defend. so if anything the trenches don't make the bunkers harder to hold in fact they make it a whole lot easier.

Coleman wrote:The difficulty of expanding into a worthless area or to the very hard to take beaches being your only two options from artillery also helps offset the higher bonus for a low territory count.

if the creators of classic had the same thinking as you then they would have made australia worth 6. why? well because your only option is to go in asia and that's a large and hard to hold continent. but you don't see australia being worth 6. do you?

also in a 3 player game you get 24 terits. let's say you get 4 terits in the bunkers and 6 other terits close by that allow you to take all the bunkers and fortify them. you'll still have 14 other terits spread around the map so just take the bunkers and in the next turn use those 10 bonus troops plus those 8 for holding 24 terits and deploy in other spots on the map.

it's like getting australia and turn one and then going for SA because you have a good position there.

plus if you manage to get the bunkers you don't go for the beaches or the worthless land. you'll go for the artillery. 17 bonus for 12 terits. once you have that there's no stopping you. why? because nobody will start taking that worthless german space to get to you and because you have the biggest bonus on the map.

Coleman wrote:Of course, if we made the German countryside worth something then we could lower the artillery bonuses, but this isn't what mibi wants to do, and it isn't what I want to see him do. I'd rather we just take a stand with how things are now, and if the map is unacceptable then it will never see play. I promise not to throw a fit about it.

this is just absurd. just because mibi does not want a thing is not a reason to ignore the community demands. is mibi becoming a qwert?
and threatening the map will be abbandoned if it's not done your way is outrageous. if this really is your mentality then i'm sorry to say it but you've lost all my respect. this is against all the principles in the foundry. remember maps are made for the community not for a specific player. if mibi wants to make maps like he wants and disregard the community then i suggest moving to landgrab.

yeti_c · Post by **yeti_c** » Sat May 26, 2007 10:14 am

Wisse wrote:just use the starting neutral terretorys xml...

This is probably the best suggestion here?

Make some of the ships, bunkers and artillery neutral?

C.

gimil · Post by **gimil** » Sat May 26, 2007 10:22 am

i never know there was such a thing what is the tag for nutral starting territories?

fireedud · Post by **fireedud** » Sat May 26, 2007 10:58 am

[quote=Dim]
and 0.13 is not that low. in 10000 games you'll have 13-14 games that are totally screwed. and that's if they start with those terits. but there's also the possibility of starting with just 4 or 5 and other terits in the area and getting all the bunkers in turn 1. so 13-14 games in 10000 and probably somewhere close to 50-200 games for starting with 4-5 bunker terits and easily getting the rest.[/quote]

Actually it's not that much, it's only out of 1,000 games, not 10,000.

Coleman · Post by **Coleman** » Sat May 26, 2007 11:21 am

Well mibi is gone and I am tired of you guys so I'm going to see about giving this thing vacation or abandoned status. mibi doesn't agree with the suggestions for bonus changes and I don't either so we are deadlocked. Same for the neutral starting positions.

DiM · Post by **DiM** » Sat May 26, 2007 12:05 pm

Coleman wrote:Well mibi is gone and I am tired of you guys so I'm going to see about giving this thing vacation or abandoned status. mibi doesn't agree with the suggestions for bonus changes and I don't either so we are deadlocked. Same for the neutral starting positions.

well i guess all i can say is that you two showed such immaturity on this matter i can't even believe it.

you know in life sometimes you have to listen to others

nobody here wants the map to fail we're all just trying to make it better but you two acting like babies are ruining a nice map. fine whatever. take your toys and go home if you think this is the best attitude.

qwert came back and so will you.

Coleman · Post by **Coleman** » Sat May 26, 2007 12:39 pm

DiM wrote:
Coleman wrote:Well mibi is gone and I am tired of you guys so I'm going to see about giving this thing vacation or abandoned status. mibi doesn't agree with the suggestions for bonus changes and I don't either so we are deadlocked. Same for the neutral starting positions.
well i guess all i can say is that you two showed such immaturity on this matter i can't even believe it.

I guess that goes both ways, which of your unfinished maps are you going to go back to working on? Should I start calling you qwert too?

A map maker (or in this case group of map makers) can quit or suspend a map they are working on for any reason. In this case, there's everything I've already said, and the fact that I am not very artistically talented and mibi has more important things going on in his life and has taken a 3 month leave of absence.

So, even if you magically got me to change my mind and implement everything you said I can't because I'd need mibi to help, and he's gone as of today.

hulmey · Post by **hulmey** » Sat May 26, 2007 2:22 pm

Thats a shame......

DiM · Post by **DiM** » Sat May 26, 2007 3:39 pm

Coleman wrote:
DiM wrote:
Coleman wrote:Well mibi is gone and I am tired of you guys so I'm going to see about giving this thing vacation or abandoned status. mibi doesn't agree with the suggestions for bonus changes and I don't either so we are deadlocked. Same for the neutral starting positions.
well i guess all i can say is that you two showed such immaturity on this matter i can't even believe it.
I guess that goes both ways, which of your unfinished maps are you going to go back to working on? Should I start calling you qwert too?

A map maker (or in this case group of map makers) can quit or suspend a map they are working on for any reason. In this case, there's everything I've already said, and the fact that I am not very artistically talented and mibi has more important things going on in his life and has taken a 3 month leave of absence.

So, even if you magically got me to change my mind and implement everything you said I can't because I'd need mibi to help, and he's gone as of today.

please look at my older maps. other than bill of rights they all suck because back then i had no idea how to use an image editing program. something done in paint can hardly be called a map in advanced state as this is. it's a big difference.

the only map i'm going to go back to is bill of rights (that's why i have it in my sig)

Coleman · Post by **Coleman** » Sun May 27, 2007 1:08 am

Well if you thought I was being immature before, I present my latest update:

Wisse · Post by **Wisse** » Sun May 27, 2007 6:25 am

long live dim-day!

hulmey · Post by **hulmey** » Sun May 27, 2007 6:40 am

I think you should leave the flaming to the Flame Wars Coleman!!!

Optimus Prime · Post by **Optimus Prime** » Sun May 27, 2007 1:00 pm

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but I find it difficult to distinguish the red numbers and dotted-lines against that dark green background.

DiM · Post by **DiM** » Sun May 27, 2007 1:08 pm

Coleman wrote:Well if you thought I was being immature before, I present my latest update:

quench

hulmey · Post by **hulmey** » Sun May 27, 2007 1:56 pm

also red numbers in the german continents are very blurred. They are hard to read and also 1 and 7 very easy to get mixed up.......

Optimus Prime · Post by **Optimus Prime** » Sun May 27, 2007 2:00 pm

^^^ I'm definitely in agreement with him. ^^^

Coleman · Post by **Coleman** » Sun May 27, 2007 2:04 pm

I think it's because of the very poor jpeg compression I used, they look better on the actual map.

hulmey · Post by **hulmey** » Sun May 27, 2007 3:16 pm

i suggest u leave the artisitic stuff to Mibi , LOL

Dapper Tom · Post by **Dapper Tom** » Wed May 30, 2007 11:16 am

Hi

What's happening with the names of the Allied landing craft? On some versions they are mixed (USA, UK and Canadian) whereas in another they are all US. I think, for historical accuracy, it would be good if there was a mix of Allies.

According to ddaymuseum.co.uk there were 156,000 Allies, of which 73,000 were American, 61,715 Brits and 21,285 Canadians.

What do people think?

pepperonibread · Post by **pepperonibread** » Thu May 31, 2007 8:35 pm

Is this going into the Final Forge subforum? Or is it in suspended development until mibi gets back?

mibi · Post by **mibi** » Wed Jun 06, 2007 9:31 am

DiM wrote: this is just absurd. just because mibi does not want a thing is not a reason to ignore the community demands. is mibi becoming a qwert?
and threatening the map will be abbandoned if it's not done your way is outrageous. if this really is your mentality then i'm sorry to say it but you've lost all my respect. this is against all the principles in the foundry. remember maps are made for the community not for a specific player. if mibi wants to make maps like he wants and disregard the community then i suggest moving to landgrab.

wow. who is being absurd here. you and hulmey think the bonuses are too high, coleman and myself do not. yet some how you two represent the "foundry community and process", and we do not. ok. well given that I made the map and coleman tested it, I'd say that all other things being equal, we know a bit more about the map and how it plays than your estimations.

please don't confuse the foundry demands with your own. you make it sound like if someone disagrees with you, they are acting like qwert. gimme a break. qwert's issues were over graphics, the issues you have are about game play. if i changed the bonuses to what you and hulmey thought they should be it could potentially ruin the game play, espeically since you have never tested or played on the map. i think you need to drop the attitude DiM. your opinion does not represent 'community' and in this case, I would say it counts for less then the two people involved in making the map.

DiM wrote: well i guess all i can say is that you two showed such immaturity on this matter i can't even believe it.

you know in life sometimes you have to listen to others.

nobody here wants the map to fail we're all just trying to make it better but you two acting like babies are ruining a nice map. fine whatever. take your toys and go home if you think this is the best attitude.

qwert came back and so will you.

The person showing maturity in this matter is you DiM. Coleman and I have responded in detail to all of your concerns, but it is YOU who is acting like a baby when the map isn't change to YOUR demands. Did the community come into this thread and demand the bonuses be reduced? no, you and hulmey did, and you and hulmey were refuted.

and don't make it sound like I am not open to changes, Siege and this map have gone through multiple changes suggested by the community. I fought some changes and later relented because i thought it would be a better map, but in order to implement your changes all of the bonuses need to be changes since the map is balanced right now. so im sorry DiM, as one member of the community, your change will not be implemented. if you prefer to be an obstructionist and continue calling us names then so be it, I can care less about your increasingly juvenile opinion at this point.

hulmey · Post by **hulmey** » Wed Jun 06, 2007 9:50 am

I remember that this was actually my idea for a map in the first place and you stole the idea and the theme. I never said anything and was happy you took over the idea even if you did not ask me if was ok for deceny's sake.

So need to get in a huff. there have been others who would like the german continent to get a bonus and you damn well know it!!!

That aside i am willing to suggest a bonus structure to you and then if you like you could have a bonus as other people do to see which one the community prefers.

KEYOGI · Post by **KEYOGI** » Wed Jun 06, 2007 10:12 am

Perhaps Coleman can organise some more play-test sessions for the map. I think I read somewhere that 3 games had been played? While I applaud Coleman for taking this step, I don't think some more play-tests would hurt. DiM seems to be able to gather a crowd for his AoM play-tests, perhaps DiM can print off the map and have some old fashioned games on the map to get a proper feel for the gameplay.

I know I'm a little uneasy about the bonuses, but unless other people can prove that gameplay is broken we'll just have to trust mibi and Coleman on this one. I'm sure neither of them would rule out updating adjusted bonuses in the future if it really was a problem.

D-Day: Omaha Beach! [Quenched]

Allied Forces