Malaysia Airlines Flight 17

[BoganGod]

Meddling in the sovereign affairs of other states? Surely not, you jest I hope.

[GoranZ]

This thing is getting messier every minute

Families of German MH17 victims to sue Ukraine, not proRussian freedom fighters or Russia

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/09/2 ... 8820140921

[AndyDufresne]

How would you even sue "Freedom Fighters" (of any country)? I don't think it is possible, but I'll leave that determination to the absent TGD.


--Andy

[aad0906]

Goranz, what is so funny about all of this that you are posting smileys?

By the way it's logical that families would sue Ukraine. After all the plane was downed over Ukrainian airspace and Ukraine was unable to guarantee the safety of it's airspace. At the same time, the families could sue Malaysian Airlines for flying over Eastern Ukraine. Some airlines did avoid Eastern Ukrainian airspace altogether (whereas others continued to fly over it).

[GoranZ]

Goranz, what is so funny about all of this that you are posting smileys?

When someone is lying usually things get messier for him, usually when he is trying to explain his "lies".
Apparently CIA(and other western intelligence agencies) had indisputable evidence, I wonder what was that evidence about. My smiles are for that evidence. Here is another one for the "evidence"
Why do you thought my smiles were for?

By the way it's logical that families would sue Ukraine. After all the plane was downed over Ukrainian airspace and Ukraine was unable to guarantee the safety of it's airspace. At the same time, the families could sue Malaysian Airlines for flying over Eastern Ukraine. Some airlines did avoid Eastern Ukrainian airspace altogether (whereas others continued to fly over it).

Well IDK if Malaysian Airlines did told the passengers that they will be flying over war zone, I presume they didn't because if they did over 90% of those westerners would not have been on that plane(whats the difference for the ticket from other company that flies on more expensive route, 20 euros?). Whats interesting is that there is absolutely no international pressure on Ukraine to explain why the plane was flying outside its regular route, yet there was enormous pressure on Russia/Novorossiya to acknowledge connection with the taking out of the plane.

As it stands Dutch investigators got everything they asked considering the circumstances the crash happened. So it is up to them to share some light on what actually happen, sooner the better. I was expecting much more from the preliminary report, but I guess final report will be the same, inconclusive, and in many eyes coverup. From history there are too many cases when those that profited from some accident actually made that accident and blame their enemies. In the case with MH17 only 3 countries profited: Ukraine, Israel and indirectly US. I'm betting on that card, the one that profited actually did committed the atrocity.

[aad0906]

The plane was shot down (I think we all agree on that part) above Eastern Ukraine territory where it is very hard to get indisputable evidence. And it was shot down by a radar guided missile, not a heat seeking missile.

The plane was only slightly off its usual course, at their own request, due to weather conditions. There were 2 other planes in the area as well (Air India and Singapore Airlines).

I too am disappointing about the findings from the Dutch investigators but there simply isn't hard evidence. US analysis allegedly concludes that the trajectory of the missile was that it was fired from separatist held soil. But this is circumstantial, not hard evidence. Then there were reports about the posting of Igor Girkin on social media which later were recanted. This too is not hard evidence. Then there were reports of intercepted phone calls where separatists discussed having taken down a Ukrainian military plane. This was verified by the NSA but of course this is also subject to scepticism. Then there were a few sightings of a BUK in separatist held territory, by civilains and journalists and also the interview with Khodakovsky who admitted that separatists had possession of a BUK (later recanted). So here is a lot of circumstantial (but not rock solid) evidence that this was an accident (i.e. separatists shooting down what they believed was a Ukrainian plane). Clearly an official investigation report of the Dutch authorities can not include circumstantial evidence but only facts which is why there was no final conclusion of who shot down the plane. You call it a cover up, but there IS rock solid evidence that the first 2 days after the crash investigators were prevented from doing their work freely at the crash site, so if there was any covering up, it would have been done by separatists.

I have seen very little to no evidence, not even circumstantial, that the plane was shot down by Ukraine (or by the US or one of its "puppets"). And how on earth would Israel have any involvement in this? Nobody profited from this tragedy.

PS, you're welcome for the premium

[GoranZ]

The plane was shot down (I think we all agree on that part) above Eastern Ukraine territory where it is very hard to get indisputable evidence.

Sure... It was taken out in the middle of war front.

And it was shot down by a radar guided missile, not a heat seeking missile.

I think that the precise words the investigators used were "large number of high-energy objects that penetrated the aircraft from outside" so what kind of weapon was it is more or less a mystery.

The plane was only slightly off its usual course, at their own request, due to weather conditions. There were 2 other planes in the area as well (Air India and Singapore Airlines).

slightly?... It was 100-200 km outside its normal flight path. And his normal flight path was not over Donetsk region...

I too am disappointing about the findings from the Dutch investigators but there simply isn't hard evidence.

All depends what kind of evidence were they looking for... If they were looking for wrong kind of evidence they might never find it.

US analysis allegedly concludes that the trajectory of the missile was that it was fired from separatist held soil. But this is circumstantial, not hard evidence.

If it was BUK missile then it must have been fired from south of the planes flight path, and that location was actually war zone, not separatist held soil. The problems that US has is to prove that the separatist had BUK missile, then to prove that there were no Ukrainian military airplanes nearby(the missile could have been used to target them), etc...
The undisputable fact for now is that the closest BUK missile to the MH 17 was in Ukrainian hands.

Then there were reports about the posting of Igor Girkin on social media which later were recanted. This too is not hard evidence.

Social media is... I said, he said, stories for children.

Then there were reports of intercepted phone calls where separatists discussed having taken down a Ukrainian military plane. This was verified by the NSA but of course this is also subject to scepticism.

Again... I said, he said story.

Then there were a few sightings of a BUK in separatist held territory, by civilains and journalists and also the interview with Khodakovsky who admitted that separatists had possession of a BUK (later recanted). So here is a lot of circumstantial (but not rock solid) evidence that this was an accident (i.e. separatists shooting down what they believed was a Ukrainian plane).

The evidence for rebel held BUK turn out to be fake, it was Ukrainian held territory, and Pope Joan already posted this

Clearly an official investigation report of the Dutch authorities can not include circumstantial evidence but only facts which is why there was no final conclusion of who shot down the plane.

And there never will be, you can mark my word.

You call it a cover up, but there IS rock solid evidence that the first 2 days after the crash investigators were prevented from doing their work freely at the crash site, so if there was any covering up, it would have been done by separatists.

After the crash there was a talk that the rebels had already tempered the flight recorders from the plane, and whole bunch of western "truths" but no one hasn't manage to see a single one supported by evidence...

I have seen very little to no evidence, not even circumstantial, that the plane was shot down by Ukraine (or by the US or one of its "puppets").

Ukraine owns 27 BUK missile systems, 3 of them were in firing range of the plane. 1 of those locations is still in Ukrainian hands. All 3 locations are marked in colored dots together with BUK missile range.

And how on earth would Israel have any involvement in this?

Israel started his offensive on Gaza in the same time... The damage created in Gaza was quite large compared that Israeli attack didn't lasted very long.

Nobody profited from this tragedy.

You kidding rite? EU/US enforces sanctions on Russia, somebody is making money from that That's how capitalism works.

[aad0906]

Israel started his offensive on Gaza in the same time... The damage created in Gaza was quite large compared that Israeli attack didn't lasted very long.

While I can see how Israel could remotely benefit from reduced media attention, I think there was still plenty of media coverage on the Gaza issue and the idea Israel would attack a plane loaded with innocent allies just to reduce media attention is ludicrous.

You kidding rite? EU/US enforces sanctions on Russia, somebody is making money from that That's how capitalism works.

Hmmm well The Netherlands definitely wasn't making money from it. In response to EU sanctions Russia issued counter sanctions and banned the import from Dutch fruits which ended up costing the Dutch agriculural industry about EUR 250 million.

Anyway, so far just speculations and accusations from individuals, but I think now we have a firm Government (albeit from a "puppet state") indictment.

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/m ... 97885.html

[rishaed]

The only conclusive facts from that article are that both the Russian video of the fighter jet near the airplane and the ukrainian video were faked, according to the spokesperson. I'd like him to state somehow after that how the seperatists were guilty. Understandably you acknowledge this so just a side comment.

[GoranZ]

Israel started his offensive on Gaza in the same time... The damage created in Gaza was quite large compared that Israeli attack didn't lasted very long.

While I can see how Israel could remotely benefit from reduced media attention, I think there was still plenty of media coverage on the Gaza issue and the idea Israel would attack a plane loaded with innocent allies just to reduce media attention is ludicrous.

Yes in that week or two Israel took out G from Gaza, literally... IDK how they manage that but they were successful. And hats off for that achievement(quarter of Gaza leveled to the ground, and almost no condemnation from the world), I presume it wouldn't have been possible without MH17.

You kidding rite? EU/US enforces sanctions on Russia, somebody is making money from that That's how capitalism works.

Hmmm well The Netherlands definitely wasn't making money from it. In response to EU sanctions Russia issued counter sanctions and banned the import from Dutch fruits which ended up costing the Dutch agriculural industry about EUR 250 million.

I never said that Netherlands benefited since absolutely no country in EU benefited from the sanctions on Russia. But some other country will in medium terms(more weapons sold to EU).
In fact so far EU is the main loser in all this mess with Russia. US/Israel turn out to be big winners tho.

Anyway, so far just speculations and accusations from individuals, but I think now we have a firm Government (albeit from a "puppet state") indictment.

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/m ... 97885.html

Ok Putin or the Russians have nothing to do with MH17... that we agree. But if Ukrainians claim that all their launchers and rockets are accounted for, from where did Novorossiya got that BUK missile? And if Ukranians faked the data that they have all missiles accounted for, can they be trysted about something else?... In other words they could have lost many missiles to paramilitary formations fighting on their side also.

Anyway we are still waiting for the final report from the Dutch investigators... if that reveals anything more then "We have no idea who did it" like the last time.

[GoranZ]

If this is authentic it could help a lot of who take out MH17


As a side note Dutch investigators got large chunk of derbies from the crash site last week to speed up the investigation.

[DaGip]

If this is authentic it could help a lot of who take out MH17


As a side note Dutch investigators got large chunk of derbies from the crash site last week to speed up the investigation.

Amidst a barrage of Google Earth photos (swimming in a mix of UFOs, Satanic Stars, and Giant Crabs), someone has finally found a legitimate, untampered Google Earth snapshot!