Once Upon A Killer Mafia (14/17) A Writers Block:Endgame

[StorrZerg]

Also note. Day 1, strike wolf had pcm as scum. I need to recheck if he had a reason why. After zivel and i applied pressure he started pushing me pretty hard at this point.

His posting heavily indicated that he was town reading pcm.

I don't believe pcm and strike are the same alignment. 8 think it's more likely my push on pcm was on a townie, which is why strike took such a hard stance to defend pcm, and push me. This also gives strike leniency if i would be lynched, since pcm is also pushing myself.

[mtamburini]

So like I didnt get a notification saying I was roleblocked. If I understand the role of jailkeeper correctly I am roleblocked and saved at same time. To which I say I was not notified that I was roleblocked. Maybe It is cause I didnt use my power so I could not get blocked.

[StorrZerg]

partial claim

I watched mtamburini last night. I did not see anything, so if Hotshot confirms that jailer would have prevented my watch. Then I would believe his claim now. ( Unless streaker blocked me)

As for why mtamburini. Well simply put, I fucked up last game not using my power on him, being overly selfish.

I felt mtamburini would draw enough attention for something to happen since I thought he was a claimed vig. Hence mafia have incentive to block or kill him.

Even with his wrong lead of lynching aog, I still felt he was town.

[strike wolf]

My change of stance on strike wolf.

Finally, you get around to this.

(the hidden wolf)

Considering that with the possible exception of Pancake I have been the most vocal about my disapproval of your play which I have not hidden which contradicts this statement, I hearby redub this case "Bullshit Storr Not-So-Hidden Wolf".

For the next part I am going to remove the spoiler tags because I am breaking this shit case down:

Much of day 1, i felt he was being inquisitive about players, poking here and there, and doing a good job analyzing the situations on hand.

Guilty as charged, sir.

We ended up pushing a few of the same people (virus/ nark),

A Virus case I disagreed with your initial read on and a Nark case that you forgot about but now want to act like it was one of your top 2 scum reads.

yet at the end of the day its a bit of a struggle as to what he was trying to accomplish. Considering near the end, Possible lynches gaining more than a foothold to be lynched would include
Ultra, Virus, DD5, AoG.

And I weighed in on each of them going as far as to reverse my view of Ultra and Virus and say that they were most likely town.

I bring this up, because he was starting to push me a bit harder near the end of the day.

Because it's only townish to spread discussion when you do it.

90% of his accusation had to do with "me vs pcm"

Because your case was manipulative as hell which you admit to yourself:

seems that its more about me being manipulative (guilty)

And no I don't consider you admitting to be manipulative about your cases to be a valid defense.

Moving on:

I thought i was onto something, and i had to reconsider my position at the time, was i ignorantly turning the end of day 1, into the day 2 of our last game (our being me and pcm which was a shitfest day 2) I concluded that maybe the points i had thought to be stronger, had not been as strong as i thought, and yes i probably over exaggerated points against pcm. Things also helped pcm's case when he started to post a bit more frequently, and he decided to push someone that wasn't "myself"

This is relevant because strike wolf hasn't actually stop pushing me.

You're right. I haven't. I still find you scummy. I have had limited time today, if there is going to be something I am going to make clear, it's who I have found scummy. I have said thoughts on Mtam, I have said some thoughts on Hotshot, I have said thoughts on DD. I'll admit that I haven't really gotten around to the Crasp-AoG back and forth or Streaker but frankly, I have had nothing really to say about Streaker (I had a slight scum read which has changed a bit over the last page with his address to the roleblocker claim but it basically came down to the tunnelling which isn't a very strong case and the feeling that he is capable of better.)

He took some time off, to pressure dd5 for a claim, and once the claim was had that was it. (similar to now with hotshot) as soon as the claim happened, "all was good with that person"

You can look, I have been bringing up DD. I am still quite skeptical about him. Nothing has been "all good" about him. I have liked his posts today, I still find him a valid scum prospect for a claim that DOES NOT FIT with the flavor. I stopped voting him in part because A. I also read AoG scummy so he was a satisfactory second lynch in my books (Note, it wasn't all good when he claimed there). B. DD came out with a role that can be confirmed (same as Hotshot). C. The tide was shifting against DD and I wasn't going to spend the rest of my day beating a dead horse.

Not completely useless, if someone with a verifiable result (Not the cop someone less important to the game) was to investigate they could prove your role which is generally not a scum role. The only question is it worth our time to test it. Screw it. Unvote for now. I want to think this over for just a little bit and I am pretty sure he is leading by a good bit so no reason right now.

vote AoG

DD's role can at least be supported and is unlikely to be scum. Ive stated my opinion earlier that I think there is a good chance that Ultra and Virus are town and are at the very least likely to be telling the truth about being lovers regardless of alignment. Busdriver is almost if not just as likely to be Mafia as town and I havent liked AoG's post pattern this game.

His reasons to vote/unvote are more game mechanical. Its not so much if he thinks the person is mafia or town, its more about can he make it apear that his vote is validated by what he is saying mechanically.

Game mechanics have always been a part of my play style. If a claim can be proven through game mechanics. It's a valid way to test the claim.

The conclusions he has are fine, yet there is no deeper understanding to the player. At the end of the day when aog flips town, the response is just (note not actual response) "welp we had a town bus driver"

I am not one of those players who goes "Oh shit we lynched a townie". You lynch people in mafia, if you are wrong, hopefully you learn why you are wrong. If you are right, you celebrate. By the way, AoG was a redirector.

HIs only comment regarding something aog has done that could be scummy would be "posting pattern" which is not something easily grasped, its more of a blank statement that has no filling.

You can look back where I actually made more comments on AoG earlier. It's in that big post where I made my case on you which I still doubt you ever fully read.

So the end result of strike wolf day 1 still looks town, it felt like he was pushing me for real reasons, yet at the same time his perspective of my was very limited. "90% conversation regarding pcm" "5% my inquiring of zivel's lover" "5% of my misread on crasp comment" he wasn't really talking about my town reads, nor did he bring up other cases i presented and dashed them (note virus/ anark).

Alright. I'll make myself clear, if people can't figure out from my general attitude towards town reads. I don't consider people making them to be that strong of a town read. they are easy to fake as scum. I've stated today that I felt your Zivel town read was an easy one. Frankly if there was one town read I felt that spoke a little bit townie of you, it was your in depth read on Crasp.

I did speak fairly frankly about my disapproval of your early Virus vote day 1. I think I even stated that it was silly that you jumped him for his first post. I won't swear to that one without looking back though. We voted Nark for different reasons. Similar line? yes a bit. But different reasons. I did not really care for you jumping on Nark for an early joke vote and I felt at the time your "not contributing" comment was a bit unjustified considering that you were the one pressuring him to defend himself.

5% inquiring of Zivel's Lover: Yes. I still don't like it even as a throwaway comment.

5% misread of Crasp's comment: I believe my problem was just as much about you dodging statements about you role fishing for Zivel's comment there as anything else.

Day 2. This is where he really shows his true colors.

Actually this is an interesting death since it could have easily been a town vig considering yesterday's scenario. It would not explain why there was only one death though.

Note, at this point he believes mtamburini to be the vig. This is very important if hotshot flips mafia. (Its also interesting that hotshot failed to mention this as a reason to "block" mtamburini, since that was on EVERYONE's mind no doubt day 1) (this doesn't have much relevance for today, but will hold more on day 3)

More than one person believed that Mtam was likely the vig. Read between the lines here though and you might see that I am saying more than I stated.

So back to why he has flipped from town to mafia in my eyes. Much of today's talk has revolved around 2 people, myself and hotshot, with supporting roles from mtamburini / aog early on. (and somewhat dd5)

Real quickly as I domt have too much time right now. My impression right now is that between Hotshot, Storr, DD and AoG there are likely two or maybe even three scum (I would not put it past Storr or Hotshot to fake an argument if they were both scum or that they are both scum but differently aligned but Im not betting on that possibility.) It is also quite possible that multiple scum are lying low right now. Anyways:

Storr-I had moderately strong scum vibes from him yesterday. They are a little less today but not as much. I did not like how he seemed to try to gauge town's readiness to lynch AoG again before he had even posted. On the other hand, his initial case on Hotshot seemed more like the Storr I was accustomed to but it has kind of perplexed me how he seems to have abandoned some of his stronger points on the case and pressed the weaker ones.

2. Hotshot-found him mildly scummy day 1 and that hasnt changed much today. I have liked most of his answers to Storr's case but there is some contrast to how active he was once pressure began than beforehand.

3. DD-His play overall has been better today, IMO, however I still am not overly fond of his claim or how it has been a bit piecemeal in how it was put together.

4. AoG-not much to go on at the beginning of the day. My only issue came from when he was still Nark and a slight case I had made early day 1. Today, his posts thus far have been more up and down.

If I had to vote right now I would probably vote either Storr or DD, now that DD is claiming that his commute would not work tonight.

@Ultra: it isnt just reads or lack thereof that was bugging me. If you sont pay closer attention to cases and realize why Storr and Hotshot bringing up Virus is relevant to the game than even as a near confirmed townie, I cant take your reads too seriously because they are not fully informed on the game as it stands.

This post was SUPER frustrating to read. I know at this point that he still feels like i'm scum.

Actually at this point, I am glad you are frustrated because frankly, now you know what it is like for a lot of people in this game (me in particular) reading a lot of your posts.

"abandoning stronger points for weaker points" The whole case is subjective, with people having different opinions on what has value and what doesn't have value. I can't defend this kind of statement form him, since he doesn't address the points he is talking about. This whole "hotshot case" at this point and largely just been me bashing my head vs hotshot, there was no outside discussion going on, so i find this comment to be poor in choice to use for the situation at hand.

The second point on hotshot, is the same formula, he makes a broad statement about everything he has said. "still doesn't like hotshot" yet "likes hotshot responses" This is a contradiction, since almost all of hotshots input at this point has had to deal with my case imo.

I feel like you are trying to unfairly use a post where I admitted that I was strapped for time against me. It's also not a contradiction. I stated a lot of the reason why I was skeptical of Hotshot, that he became more active when put under pressure.

and if not, there is little or no indication from strike wolf, what is still off about hotshot. The only thing he admits to, is how active he is when pressure was placed upon him. A note of change of behavior, good point but he doesn't go anywhere with this.

I don't like making all of my implications out loud. You are here to be able to read between the lines, I shouldn't have to lead you by the hand on a simple one like this.

Now, i know this post was a precursor to what he wanted to say,thats fine. Objectively he doesn't accomplish anything right now. 1. he isn't helping with the push against hotshot. 2. He isn't actually leaving room for discussion to be had. 3. There is no call to action for people to do something. The absence of trying to get something done, or accomplishing anything with his post is imo scummy.

Again I feel this is unfair considering I admitted to having been strapped for time. I made my statements. I clarified on many of them later. You're right, I didn't make much of a push on what direction it should go beyond a quick comment to say that I favored you or DD at that point because I DID NOT HAVE TIME TO BACK UP WHY.

The main case strike wolf presents against Storr day 2

@Storr v. Hotshot: Admittedly, I stated Hotshot originally because I felt that he had been ignored by Storr on things that Storr would normally jump on (notably commonly being online viewing the forum and then leaving without posting things). So, admittedly, I've been viewing everything here with a fairly skeptical eye. I liked Storr's initial push and I liked how Hotshot answered it. From there, I kind of get more and more cynical.

Its almost laughable at this kind of remark. have i done something similar to this? Sure, Who did I do this on day 1? Virus. Why virus? He had no post, then 1 post.. This entire remark is because "i should have noticed him viewing and not posting" I would have expected the "ignored" aspect to be followed up with, why strike wolf felt hotshot was scummy, and asking why i failed to pick up why hotshot was scummy.

No the follow up is why didn't you find HotShot scummy when he was behaving in a manner that I know you don't particularly like (as you have voted for it at least once in every game I have seen you play). I know you were online at some of those points where he wasn't, you were posting in the thread. Yes part of the reason I mentioned this was that my reasoning had changed. I felt you were ignoring Hotshot day 1. I thought it could be intentional. I brought it up as possible indication of similar alignment. That reasoning no longer stood by the time I made that post so there was no reason to ask it any more. So yes. I brought that up to give clarity on why this all started.

Again, we have blank statements with no attachment to the interactions of hotshot /storr. (likes the push, likes the answers)

But I didn't like the whole push. The initial push was good. You questioned Hotshot on his inactivity, some of his neutral stances, etc. etc. I felt it devolved and I stated why as I went farther into the post.

@Storr: My point about your case moving from strong to weak was that you went from statements that legitimately pointed out some fluffy comments, odd/non-committal playstyle and some genuine concerns to talking about:

Fantastic we get to the meat of the problem. I really want to know what these genuine concerns i brought up are.

Oh wait. I also got into why I thought your initial push was strong in the very next statement. Nice being manipulative about how I wasn't and then showing that I was later in the post.

a. Misrepresenting your Nark case as over a joke vote: Frankly, there were a lot of people who were on it because of the joke vote and I just don't see this.

Not sure how this has to do with hotshot. I mean i know why it has to deal with hotshot, yet your not talking about the situation of me vs hotshot regarding my anark push.

It has everything to do with it. You pushed Hotshot on him misreading your nark push as scummy. I stated why that isn't as blatant a scum tell as you like to think.

I'll try to find time to respond to the rest tonight. For now I have to finish a project for work.

@Storr's partial: See now we are getting somewhere.

[HotShot53]

partial claim

I watched mtamburini last night. I did not see anything, so if Hotshot confirms that jailer would have prevented my watch. Then I would believe his claim now. ( Unless streaker blocked me)

As for why mtamburini. Well simply put, I fucked up last game not using my power on him, being overly selfish.

I felt mtamburini would draw enough attention for something to happen since I thought he was a claimed vig. Hence mafia have incentive to block or kill him.

Even with his wrong lead of lynching aog, I still felt he was town.

Partial claim? Really? What town purpose does it serve to partial claim? Couldn't find a good manga character yet for a full fake claim or something?

So since you aren't a cop... are you willing to admit now that you had nothing on me, and that your implying you did was just you implying anything you could in order to get people to vote me?

I don't think my jailkeeping would prevent a watcher, so either one of us was roleblocked, or you are lying.

[StorrZerg]

partial claim

I watched mtamburini last night. I did not see anything, so if Hotshot confirms that jailer would have prevented my watch. Then I would believe his claim now. ( Unless streaker blocked me)

As for why mtamburini. Well simply put, I fucked up last game not using my power on him, being overly selfish.

I felt mtamburini would draw enough attention for something to happen since I thought he was a claimed vig. Hence mafia have incentive to block or kill him.

Even with his wrong lead of lynching aog, I still felt he was town.

Partial claim? Really? What town purpose does it serve to partial claim? Couldn't find a good manga character yet for a full fake claim or something?

So since you aren't a cop... are you willing to admit now that you had nothing on me, and that your implying you did was just you implying anything you could in order to get people to vote me?

I don't think my jailkeeping would prevent a watcher, so either one of us was roleblocked, or you are lying.

when you have claim you have confirmed information about your role from the mode imo we can proceed. till then stating what you think of how the role works, doesn't really hold weight.
Currently i'm awaiting a response as well.

Sure, i had never had a cop check on you, i still believe you have been playing scummy. and since i can't be sure of the result of today, i knew i'd have to claim since ultra is getting ideas that i should possibly be shot if you flip town. (the fake cop check shoulda been easy to read tbh, considering if i really had something on you, i wouldn't be caring about ultra) I do find it strange that you didn't mention mtamb being a vig when you said why you blocked him.

Still awaiting your 2 more detailed town reads besides "i liked the way the posting was"

[aage]

partial claim

I watched mtamburini last night. I did not see anything,

Did your result pm say something like "nobody visited your target" , or did you get something like "nothing" as result?

If the result pm said "you did not see anything" rather than "anyONE", you could have been blocked but we'll need confirmation from Streaker.

I don't have full knowledge of what the mod would do, but I would consider jailing to be a watchable / trackable action. Especially since HotShot claimed he protects his targets from "harm", rather than making them "immune to night actions" or something.

I really wished you waited with providing this information until AFTER Streaker and HotShot both had claimed who they targeted.

HotShot's heated response doesn't look good on him. Clearly, you're waiting for Streaker to post before you go all-in on "Storr is a liar", which needn't be the case. I doubt Storr would self-sac on HotShot if he were lying, especially with the 2 vig shots from Ultra being in play.
The coincidence of Storr happening to watch HotShot's target is also sketchy, although I'll buy that he would watch Mtamb if he were watcher.

[aage]

Also Storr, I've read your case on Strike but I can't comment before I've reread his bigger D1 posts and posts from ealier this day. Those are the foundation of my town read on him, need to see if I missed something.

[StorrZerg]

Regarding the (hidden) strike wolf
the attribute is more towards you being low on attention. Not about how vocal you are against me. I honestly can't recall anyone that has applied any pressure against you, or called out anything you have done. lets be honest, you are not a beacon of town embodiment. So attacking why i label you as "hidden" doesn't really acomplish anything, nor does it make me look worse, or you look better. Honestly i'm surprised you responded with such fervor about it. (though probably one of the easier things to fake, and be upset about)

Spoiler

A Virus case I disagreed with your initial read on and a Nark case that you forgot about but now want to act like it was one of your top 2 scum reads.

Honestly regarding nark, its likely he would have been re-pressured by me , if he had been posting. He stopped posting, and called for replacement which didn't allow for continued pressure.
Something of note regarding anark and myself, you had pitted us as both scum fairly early on.
As far as virus, and your disagreement with my early case.

Yeah, absolutely i want him to comment on things that are not relative to himself. Thing is, streaker made it appear that his entire reads are simplified to omgus, which i disagree with. And as someone who did get lots of quick votes, its understandable that most of his reads are about those that pressure him.

Strike, any comments on virus or pcm? you still pushing anark? whats changed anything?

Virus and Nark would be my top 2 scum picks right now. I tried to give Virus the benefit of the doubt but his follow up posts stunk worse than his first post. Nark I have said what I wanted for now. I would at least like to hear from him before I change my vote. As far as PCM. I am going to look back at the context of that first post you quoted before I come to an opinion on your analysis. As of right now, I am leaning slightly scummy for PCM but would say my read on him is a lot weaker than my read for Nark or Virus.

Now, at this point sure you are reading me scummy, How ever you are inclined to be in agreement in 2 similar pushes. Regarding virus, you are not indicating any disagreement with my case on virus (this is also partial why if felt you are town, since it seems you are still considering me) I'm finding no indication that you had any fault or agreement with my virus reads and pressure. There is no reading "between" the lines on this subject.

Because your case was manipulative as hell which you admit to yourself:

This game is about finding mafia. And lynching mafia. So convincing people that your view of said person is scum, involves manipulation. One simply can't say "hey jonnyboy is scum" and not explain it, and not follow up. Even a detailed reason why jonnyboy is scum, can get lost and swept under the rug. So i believe you don't have anything warranting of "scummy" behavior, regarding manipulation, when its something i do regardless of my alignment, to get what i feel is right done.

You can look, I have been bringing up DD. I am still quite skeptical about him. Nothing has been "all good" about him. I have liked his posts today, I still find him a valid scum prospect for a claim that DOES NOT FIT with the flavor. I stopped voting him in part because A. I also read AoG scummy so he was a satisfactory second lynch in my books (Note, it wasn't all good when he claimed there). B. DD came out with a role that can be confirmed (same as Hotshot). C. The tide was shifting against DD and I wasn't going to spend the rest of my day beating a dead horse.

I think this is important since, a large part of your push was terrible. (day 1)
Regarding claims... eventually you will have to take a stand when a claim is announced and can be proved. You will have to push something (shocker i know you will push me lol) I think its fine and dandy to allow people to prove themselves on claims (take last game i pushed virus, and backed off for reasons of being able to confirm his role). Yet i was still scummy on him, and still vocal about that. You are not continuing your reads, once claims are out imo, specifically day 1, when many claims happened.

He is scum and lover is the claim he was stuck with. Not having too much experience under his belt yet, he doesnt feel comfortable trying to fake claim a different role and not saying he is a lover than is as good as saying lynch me if he comes out as a lover later..

Ultra/Virus are scum and DD tried to double counter claim hoping to save them

Frankly, DD doesnt bleed scum like he did in PYP but his play hasnt been that different either. Theres enough inconsitencies here to warrant a lynch.

Along with terrible hunches on things that are not alignment indicative and purely flavor

Yes this is part of the reason that I wanted to see if DD was claiming the Romeo and Juliet pairing because my role is also from an anime. I didn't pursue it though because it still felt a bit early to jump to the conclusion that their role did not fit flavor wise but it was part of the factor in what I thought of DD's claim.

As far as the Romeo and Juliet Manga seems like his is based off the Shakespearean version. Maybe splitting hairs but I am not convinced about keeping him alive even if it was the manga version.

3. The flavor of your role is off. This is excusable on it's own but there are a bunch of people talking and not one has contradicted that their roles are based on anime/manga stories while yours appears based on the Shakespearean version of Romeo and Juliet. So yes your role claim doesn't seem to line up and this is a common sign of someone who tried to make a fake claim.

This imo, is a clear push for a claim. This isn't you thinking he is mafia. I even defended and slashed down all these accusations you gave, to which you gave no response.
The only thing you pushed for him being scum, was him sheeping.

Not completely useless, if someone with a verifiable result (Not the cop someone less important to the game) was to investigate they could prove your role which is generally not a scum role. The only question is it worth our time to test it. Screw it. Unvote for now. I want to think this over for just a little bit and I am pretty sure he is leading by a good bit so no reason right now.

Again, the instant unvote with a claim that is slightly possible to prove. You did a hell of a lot better of a job pushing me all game, with reasons logic etc (even if you are wrong) than you did on dd5, since your entire being of lynching him was just so fluffy with flavor.

You can look back where I actually made more comments on AoG earlier. It's in that big post where I made my case on you which I still doubt you ever fully read.

You are right though, you do make more than one comment about AoG. But as to indication that he is scum, and the play he is exhibiting is scummy i think not.

As far as the people on that wagon, I would agree with Mtam right now that AoG has been very scummy and I am getting to the point where I expect him to flip scum regardless of what DD flips. As far as the Zivel statement, I am willing to accept that answer.

I am seeing AoG play horribly.

And while I did contemplate the possibility of lynching Storr or AoG today, I ultimately have to agree with Whatsausage that a lover lynch is the only option that really makes sense today.

How ever i believe this is the "core" reasons for AoG that you want to bring up.

Regarding AoG: Don't like his posts. Seems to operate too much on the assumption that Ultra and Virus are telling the complete truth already.

2. Zivel (has power that we don't know of yet)/????? (has power that we don't know of yet) - Zivel says they're both confirmed town...ok...why should we believe that? I believe that lovers in this game are the same alignment but why should we take Zivel's word for it that they're both town?

This is kind of nitpicking. Zivel appears to have information that has been confirmed by the other claimed lover pairs in this game so we can at least conclude that he is telling the truth about some of what he says. From there the fact that he has been so open about some of this information does lead town as a counter claim becomes riskier as the information begins to not line up. Since Zivel has information about the lover mechanics that line up, it is safe to say that he wasn't lying about being a lover. Could be scum but seems unlikely everything considered so I don't see how out of the three lover sets Zivel is the least townie.

the point I'm poorly making is that if ultra and virus were both scum, it would be a horrifically bad play to come out as lovers. I just feel as if zivel and dd are protecting their lovers' identities because they know that lovers are same alignment and they don't want to screw their other half over.

Umm really? there are plenty of reasons for town lovers not to out their other halves, like give up important town members who mafia can target. We still don't know for sure that lovers don't die in pairs and exposing their lovers potentially just gives mafia that much more chance to get a two for one shot. As I said earlier, we don't have enough protective roles to protect every lover if they are exposed. There's nothing scummy about Zivel and DD hiding their lovers. Now the other half of your argument you may have a point and I will get more into that when I get into Ultra and Virus.

also the fact that ultra/virus got counter claimed means nothing to me. zivel and dd could've just done it thinking "oh, I am scum but I am a lover pair also, maybe I can convince the town I am non-scum by counter claiming".

Risky move at best. Let's say that they are a lover pair. Zivel is scum lover and sees it. He counter claims. Let's say he is operating under the assumption that lovers die together. He maybe can get the counter claim to work (not necessarily) but then town turns on him and he is lynched the next day (the most probable answer). Zivel just traded 3 townies for 2 mafia. math that doesn't add up as being beneficial to mafia on Day 1.

Even if we consider that Zivel was just mafia not mafia lover. He can't be sure he wouldn't be forced to reveal his "lover" to town to back up his story or what the details of the lover claim might be. If Ultra had come back with a highly believable role (say cop), than it would be Zivel's head on the chopping block.

You start off with AoG "has to much information that ultra/virus are town"
Yet he is giving reasons, for why he believes that. This is largely just discussion regarding ultra/virus. (and lovers in general) Not why AoG is scum.

I don't like making all of my implications out loud. You are here to be able to read between the lines, I shouldn't have to lead you by the hand on a simple one like this.

You know what happens when you assume... As it is very apparent, i don't get jokes easily, and i look very bluntly at what people say.

No the follow up is why didn't you find HotShot scummy when he was behaving in a manner that I know you don't particularly like (as you have voted for it at least once in every game I have seen you play). I know you were online at some of those points where he wasn't, you were posting in the thread. Yes part of the reason I mentioned this was that my reasoning had changed. I felt you were ignoring Hotshot day 1. I thought it could be intentional. I brought it up as possible indication of similar alignment. That reasoning no longer stood by the time I made that post so there was no reason to ask it any more. So yes. I brought that up to give clarity on why this all started.

Again this is just such a bad reason to even have a hunch. I would accept "hey hotshot been scummy here is why, why the hell storr didn't you pick up on this" hotshot had been posting, he had been relatively active in comparison to many. (usually posting at least 1x a day) So by your own definition, this isn't what i should have picked up. I should have picked at virus, because he was online, and hadn't made ANY POSTS. Now I didn't look at hotshot in that great of detail, how ever you made a few comments regarding hotshot which i agreed with, to which you never followed up. If anything thats scummy on your end. You found something scummy, someone agreed with your findings and town read you for it, and you didn't continue the lead you had.

But I didn't like the whole push. The initial push was good. You questioned Hotshot on his inactivity, some of his neutral stances, etc. etc. I felt it devolved and I stated why as I went farther into the post.

The lack of pointing out what you actually liked about my post, is still a mystery, and its a bit late for that to be solved at this point. The big issue is that you failed to do that, while you felt it far more important to point out the "weak points" on my post and attack me. I would state from what you just gave, "activity" would be a weak reason, not a strong one. Thats a lead into something, that's not a reason for a lynch, or heavy indicator on someones alignment. imo. Something that i use, often to find a lead. "neutral stances" which ones? what in particular?
The point im trying to make with you, is that you didn't want to approve of any valid points i had, since approval of the points i made, would lead to you having to relook my alignment. It was much easier for you to keep the pressure on attacking me with quotes and points, rather than go over my full read.

I'll try to find time to respond to the rest tonight. For now I have to finish a project for work.

Thats fine, ill respond to that and then ill be done for a while talking with strike wolf.
i'll be more interested in talking with others about strike wolf, my points if they are valid or not. etc.
I understand my recent attack on strike wolf, is large and can be hard to digest. I'd be happy to talk about smaller, or more specific points that anyone has about the argument.
(probably easier that way than trying to address another massive post from someone else quoting everything me/strike has said)

[StorrZerg]

@aage, ill respond with what i got after hotshot posts, i don't want to "influence" his choice of words. (good question btw on phrasing)
I have gotten a result regarding how my action should relate to jail keeper (i think.. it was vague) ill give that as well after hotshot.

I really wished you waited with providing this information until AFTER Streaker and HotShot both had claimed who they targeted.

Welp, i waited for hotshot, probably shoudla waited for streaker.

If streaker targeted me, whats your assessment then?

If streaker didn't target me, would you still want to know who he targeted?

HotShot's heated response doesn't look good on him. Clearly, you're waiting for Streaker to post before you go all-in on "Storr is a liar", which needn't be the case. I doubt Storr would self-sac on HotShot if he were lying, especially with the 2 vig shots from Ultra being in play.

'

good point.....

[HotShot53]

Sure, i had never had a cop check on you, i still believe you have been playing scummy. and since i can't be sure of the result of today, i knew i'd have to claim since ultra is getting ideas that i should possibly be shot if you flip town. (the fake cop check shoulda been easy to read tbh, considering if i really had something on you, i wouldn't be caring about ultra) I do find it strange that you didn't mention mtamb being a vig when you said why you blocked him.

Still awaiting your 2 more detailed town reads besides "i liked the way the posting was"

If you need to fake stuff to get other people to vote someone... maybe you should realize your case isn't actually that good of a case?

Btw, you still haven't claimed, I am waiting for a full claim. I consider partial claims scummy, and see no reason a town would make a partial claim unless there were very unusual circumstances.

I didn't think mtam was a vig at the end of day 1, he basically hinted he wasn't by basically laughing at people who suggested he was. I read his "I'll kill myself if dd is lynched" statement as him being DD's lover.

I still don't see what the point is of giving drawn out town reads, I don't think I've ever seen this requested in other games... usually you build cases why people are scum, not build cases why some random person who isn't even being voted on is town. Personally, I feel it would be a waste of my time since it wouldn't change anyone's opinions anyway. I will still try to do it tonight since others seem to want it also... I am getting tired of everyone being bullied into doing whatever it is you decide they should do though.

[HotShot53]

@aage, ill respond with what i got after hotshot posts, i don't want to "influence" his choice of words. (good question btw on phrasing)
I have gotten a result regarding how my action should relate to jail keeper (i think.. it was vague) ill give that as well after hotshot.

I really wished you waited with providing this information until AFTER Streaker and HotShot both had claimed who they targeted.

Welp, i waited for hotshot, probably shoudla waited for streaker.

If streaker targeted me, whats your assessment then?

If streaker didn't target me, would you still want to know who he targeted?

HotShot's heated response doesn't look good on him. Clearly, you're waiting for Streaker to post before you go all-in on "Storr is a liar", which needn't be the case. I doubt Storr would self-sac on HotShot if he were lying, especially with the 2 vig shots from Ultra being in play.

'

good point.....

You waited until after I claimed to conveniently have visited the same person as I did. Why don't you go first this time? I just PM'd rishead, so I don't have my answers back yet.

I never said it was definite storr was a liar, there could always be a scum roleblocker too. All I know is that storr is going to have a very hard time arguing himself out of being lynched tomorrow if I die today. I sure hope he is as much scum as I think he is, otherwise town is going to be in deep trouble.

[StorrZerg]

Sure, i had never had a cop check on you, i still believe you have been playing scummy. and since i can't be sure of the result of today, i knew i'd have to claim since ultra is getting ideas that i should possibly be shot if you flip town. (the fake cop check shoulda been easy to read tbh, considering if i really had something on you, i wouldn't be caring about ultra) I do find it strange that you didn't mention mtamb being a vig when you said why you blocked him.

Still awaiting your 2 more detailed town reads besides "i liked the way the posting was"

If you need to fake stuff to get other people to vote someone... maybe you should realize your case isn't actually that good of a case?

Btw, you still haven't claimed, I am waiting for a full claim. I consider partial claims scummy, and see no reason a town would make a partial claim unless there were very unusual circumstances.

I didn't think mtam was a vig at the end of day 1, he basically hinted he wasn't by basically laughing at people who suggested he was. I read his "I'll kill myself if dd is lynched" statement as him being DD's lover.

I still don't see what the point is of giving drawn out town reads, I don't think I've ever seen this requested in other games... usually you build cases why people are scum, not build cases why some random person who isn't even being voted on is town. Personally, I feel it would be a waste of my time since it wouldn't change anyone's opinions anyway. I will still try to do it tonight since others seem to want it also... I am getting tired of everyone being bullied into doing whatever it is you decide they should do though.

Got peoples attention, to help speed up the game. I wasn't backing off you, if you would have rather been in this situation with 24 hours left to go so be it, i didn't see the point in putting you under that kind of pressure then.

Consider this unusual circumstances, since i'm claiming out of the possibility of being wrong about you and being shot by ultra because of that. I'm not claiming because i'm about to be lynched. So i await, further detail on how jailer interacts.

no one is asking for long drawn out reads. you are being questioned about how you gave your reads, with no explanation or ability to follow how you obtained these reads. (case brought up by aage). Hence, why you are urged to give explanation on reads. In a more detailed fashion, so we can better understand why you are reading "said person" town. what you found that they did that was town.

This attitude that you won't change anyone's mind is very sketch. There are still plenty of people that would rather see me lynched, and strike in particular who likes your claim far more than he likes mine. NOt to mention your reads, even if you did get lynched today would help the rest of town decide on the people you gave. Since right now, if you did happen to die, there isn't really any strong indication on who you think is town and why.

You waited until after I claimed to conveniently have visited the same person as I did. Why don't you go first this time? I just PM'd rishead, so I don't have my answers back yet.

I never said it was definite storr was a liar, there could always be a scum roleblocker too. All I know is that storr is going to have a very hard time arguing himself out of being lynched tomorrow if I die today. I sure hope he is as much scum as I think he is, otherwise town is going to be in deep trouble.

I mean of course i did. I didn't have a connection of you and tambo, so why would i claim before you... You had been placed up to Lynch, you had been "forced" to claim. I have not.
my response will wait, since you can 100% explain/squeak out of the situation if i happened to go first. One thing that is very apparent from trying to figure out mechanics of the game, its often unsure of how roles will interact if you do not happen to be that role. Case and point lovers, not being sure if they die or not when the other dies.

So right now part of my judgement on you is your ability to claim how your role works, in detail. Since if you are not that role, then you would not be explained how that role works in full detail, thus i could catch you if you try to lie.

And regardless of what i say, streaker could potentially catch me in a lie after i give my information after you if i am being untruthful. Donno, i usually do a pretty good job of not being lynched. Its likely i would be shot by ultra if you flipped town, which is the only reason i half claimed at this point. So, tbh its up to him if i need to full claim or not. You really are in no position to demand things.

[HotShot53]

Rishead is a fast responder, so I have my answers. Paraphrasing so I don't get modkilled for quoting:

Cop check is apparently blocked on whomever I jailkeep. (Was surprising to me, and I disagree with this, but that's how rishead runs it apparently)

Tracker on me would work, tracker on the jailed person would obviously show he went nowhere.

Watcher on both me and the jailed person would work. So either one of us was roleblocked, or you are lying. Would be a very bold move on a scum part to claim that though, since a scum would obviously know I will flip town... so I'm not sure if you're actually town after all, or if you are just trying to get me lynched first figuring you're either going to be lynched or shot anyway.

Rishead does not notify on roleblocks, so mtam wouldn't have been notified. And if I was roleblocked, I wouldn't know it either. If storr is actually a watcher, I don't know if the way his results are phrased would indicate if he was roleblocked or not

I'm not going to answer the busdriver question, since the town busdriver is dead, answering it could only help scum

[UltrasPlot]

1. tldr of Storr's posts: everyone who fails to vote hotshot except ultra is scum
2. MY SHOTS ARE NOT GUARANTEED. I COULD BE ROLEBLOCKED.
3. big FoS on Storr... unless we have a bg its clear that mafia will block and likely kill me as we have at least one of em down after today's lynch...
ALSO...
4. What if Storr / HotShot is scum/wolf respectively and the scum is trying to get townie points for lynching the wolf...

vc pls

[UltrasPlot]

btw option two...
we lynch someone else
someone bg's / sg's me
I shoot the two of them

more likely than not one mafia

[StorrZerg]

hmm i'm probably a liar... (but everyone all ready knows that)

But its now time for zivel question!

Hey zivel, your buddy/ lover what not.

Did that person "visit" mtamburini. cause if thats the case, its probably best for you to take the lead on that, so that person can stay under the radar. If not, then ill wait to see what that person does if they do anything.

Yep thats right, i saw 2 people visit tambo. hotshot obviously, and a larger reason as to why i pressured him to start.

Now i'm still undecided as to your claim hotshot. Since, the watcher information matches with what i gathered. I was hoping to catch you in a lie if you happened to be scum. Now this doesn't clear you, but it does ensure that the right information was presented. I'm still pending the 2 town reads between the 4 i named earlier, if you forgot i'd be happy to look them up (*i think they are pcm/strike/aage/streaker). I'm a little concerned with how much information you did happen to gather, since how stonewalled i was when inquiring information regarding mechanics and how roles work.

So this "unamed person" that visited mtamb. I'm sure this person knows how i feel about them, so i'm purposly going to keep it vague. (this is also why i'm asking zivel since i don't need to be going down or up any rabbit holes pending his response) I also think it might be good if they hinted at some indication on if they believed what you said. Since i know they visited.

[UltrasPlot]

ok just checked this wont put storr near lynch
LYNCH STORR

I want the fullclaim... you gave away your role. Anything you think will inherently damage the town you may leave out, but I want:
- Name
- Paraphrased Flavor
- Action
- Action Flavor
at minimum.
(i.e. if you are in a lover pair I do not expect you to reveal that.)

[UltrasPlot]

Hotshot, I see you are reading this thread, would you mind responding to my posts and Storr's?

[StorrZerg]

1. tldr of Storr's posts: everyone who fails to vote hotshot except ultra is scum
2. MY SHOTS ARE NOT GUARANTEED. I COULD BE ROLEBLOCKED.
3. big FoS on Storr... unless we have a bg its clear that mafia will block and likely kill me as we have at least one of em down after today's lynch...
ALSO...
4. What if Storr / HotShot is scum/wolf respectively and the scum is trying to get townie points for lynching the wolf...

vc pls

its HS at l-3, with 5 voting him
Me at 3 votes (pcm/strike/hotshot) i think..

I think you place to much value on yourself dieing. I doubt you will die, it think its far more likely mafia will allow you to shoot, and bank on you hitting wrong targets. (i think they will value information gathering roles more, considering none have died, and only 1 myself has been claimed) I'd only be a consideration of dieing i think if hotshot flips mafia. Other wise, they are going to be hunting protective or informational roles. they MIGHT block you, but you are not leading town enough to be considered a shot that must happen imo.

your last point. yep lets keep playing in dream land since that makes total sense. Even if that did happen, the town still has informational roles available. Not to mention n1 information regarding a possible protection / block of a mafia shot.

btw option two...
we lynch someone else
someone bg's / sg's me
I shoot the two of them

more likely than not one mafia

Yeah thats pretty terrible, considering you could still get blocked.... and then where are we day 2...




Fp

ok just checked this wont put storr near lynch
LYNCH STORR

I want the fullclaim... you gave away your role. Anything you think will inherently damage the town you may leave out, but I want:
- Name
- Paraphrased Flavor
- Action
- Action Flavor
at minimum.
(i.e. if you are in a lover pair I do not expect you to reveal that.)

Stop being bad. There is another person who can corroborate they visited mtamburini. Hence, my role can all ready be proved. And i'm only going to announce them if i find doubt in what they say. Forcing me to claim, will force that to be outed.

I'm not a lover... should be quite obvious about my blank ass questions regarding it day 1.

If you noticed, i set a trap for hotshot, based on how he claimed.
1st being if he admitted to visiting mtambo. (failure on this i would out, probably outing the other person, to prove i knew this)
This works since its very unlikely 2 mafia visit the same person.
2nd specifics on his jail keeper ability. (if he failed to answer questions correctly, i would have pressured him for a lynch)

[UltrasPlot]

So, you cannot come up with flavor to match your role? I would think mafia are better fakers.

[Zivel]

hmm i'm probably a liar... (but everyone all ready knows that)

But its now time for zivel question!

Hey zivel, your buddy/ lover what not.

Did that person "visit" mtamburini. cause if thats the case, its probably best for you to take the lead on that, so that person can stay under the radar. If not, then ill wait to see what that person does if they do anything.

Nope. Not sure what you are getting at but I am going to say that I am still up in the air about all this claiming and counter claiming. I will have to reread it all again to sort it out but now my time is tight again as I have a job interview tomorrow and have not got a CV sorted.... it doesnt rain it pours.

[UltrasPlot]

Guys, I suggest we lynch Storr due to his inability to give us FLAVOR... which is the most moot point to a role in a mafia game, except in a FAKECLAIM where it holds importance as it is easy to declare false. His evasion of this point makes him automatically scummy.

[StorrZerg]

hmm i'm probably a liar... (but everyone all ready knows that)

But its now time for zivel question!

Hey zivel, your buddy/ lover what not.

Did that person "visit" mtamburini. cause if thats the case, its probably best for you to take the lead on that, so that person can stay under the radar. If not, then ill wait to see what that person does if they do anything.

Nope. Not sure what you are getting at but I am going to say that I am still up in the air about all this claiming and counter claiming. I will have to reread it all again to sort it out but now my time is tight again as I have a job interview tomorrow and have not got a CV sorted.... it doesnt rain it pours.

np. Its just, if it was your lover, that person would likely not have to out today. since you would be able to take the lead on their behalf. Which would allow their identity to be kept secret. Giving less risk to you both dieing. But thats not the case.

So i will have to wait for what this person does. with what i've claimed.

[UltrasPlot]

You are pointedly ignoring me, Storr.