Once Upon A Killer Mafia (14/17) A Writers Block:Endgame

[UltrasPlot]

Unlynch whatsausage for now

Rishaed, votecount please.

Would be important info...

[Zivel]

OK, I am going to express my case on dd5 because I said I would, and I still read him scum but information is moving fast in this game and I am a little behind

Day 1:
Rides the wagon on Ultra and tunnels him pretty bad, even after the lovers claim.

He claims lover third, with a claim of Romeo and Juliet and only being able to talk at night. Easy claim to make up, weird that they can only talk at night. Convenient for a mafia claim. Scum pair is third to claim, why would he claim? Well my guess is he was going to try and get an Ultra lynch, throw some confusion into the mix and try and prove that Ultra was the scum pair. He also gets a scum bud that he can claim town with.

New thought: what if all of us who have claimed lovers are town and this is just an evil twist rishaed is throwing on us... We could all be screwed
I'm tired and going to bed, I have gone through almost everything. Here are some general reads:

1.Hotshot53- leaning town
2.Pancakemix - Neutral/ leaning town
3.mtamburini - town
4.Streaker - not sure about you yet, going to have to go back through all your posts
5.Virus90- scummy
6.aage - town
7.Storrzerg - was town at first, but the more I read the more scummy he seems... going to go back through
8.Ultrasplot - scummy
9.Zivel - leaning town
10.Whatsausage - scummy
11.Army of God - scummy
12.Anamainiacks - leaning town
13.Crasp - need to find more posts
14.dd515087 - charming, easy on the eyes, I would have his children
(14.dd515187 was town, dissapeared. he played more active last game and he was mafia there.)
^ streaker's read from a couple days ago - decided to include it because it was the only one on me that didn't say "he's scum for being inactive" IIRC
15.Anarkistsdream - Neutral, leaning scum
16.Strikewolf - probably the town mayor honestly
17.Crazymilkshake5 - uhh... I don't remember seeing anyone with this name

If anyone has comments or concerns or would like to know more, you can reach me on this forum (possibly )

This was his first list and does not really have any information attached to the reads. Safely played. Note he has Virus, AoG and Ultra all pegged as scummy, this is after the claims. He seems pretty certain that there is a scum pair and he has pegged Ultra/Virus

It would be weird if they were both scum and lovers, but they were my top two scum reads at the time. What's possible is that Ultra claimed lover and then Ziv and I came in and made our claims. Note: we did not want our partners to come in and claim. Then virus came in to supposedly give more credit to Ultra. Suspicious.

The only thing that is adding up with what we know in my mind is that ultra is scum, virus would flip town, but his WC is for ultra to live to the end or for ultra to win. Having the "same" win condition would make them the same "alignment" even if one shows scum and one shows town right? I think that is why ultra and virus are so willing to have virus take the lynch in ultra's place, so willing to the point of ultra voting himself. This would be a way for ultra to be "confirmed" town, when he may very well not be.

i like the point you bring up about virus/ultra situation. similar to my view, i can't see why we would lynch ultra and let virus die if we have any doubt about them it should indicate we have to lynch virus first.

Absolutely agree with both of these
unvote Ultra
vote virus

He then changes his vote to virus, thinking he can now get a two for one lynch. He says he has doubt over the play of Ultra and Virus but nowhere does he actually make a case. The best I can get is:

As for Ultra and virus... Did you skim through everything? They have been read as scum for numerous reasons: poor reads, weird votes, calling each other scum and then coming out as lovers... Do I need to say more? I will go back and quote everything if necessary, but if you read through the last 4ish pages you will find everything on them.

Which is basically sheeping others arguments. He has not made any interesting or original posts thus far in the game.

The anark read is a soft scum one, aage is a much stronger town read. I'm not entirely sure why you are distracting from the main conversation of the day, but if my thoughts will help you then I will give them:
(not going to quote because there are way too many posts and most of them are long)
aage - I liked his reads on ultra and AoG on the 31st to start off. He really joins the convo and adds a lot on page 10 with more reads with solid arguments behind them. He is asked for his thoughts on other people's reads and he adds to the conversation on them and continues conversations. He basically has little BS in his posts and makes reads and pushes and has arguments to back them up. (Through about page 13 to 14 or wherever the lover topic came up)
anark - Also participated a lot back on pages 10-12ish but his posts have a lot less content. At one point he brings up something about the name of the game which was pretty irrelevant and useless. He basically participated a lot for a while but had little relevant content or solid arguments.

This is a solid post, I add it for clarity. He makes some good reasons.

Then he questions PCM after my post about PCM. Sheeping most of the questions and backing up me and storr with little real new information.

He still has Ultra and Virus pegged as scum and then turns his attention to AoG.

This is about the time that Strike has a go at him, and he doesnt really respond well, claims commuter with little pressure and only 4? votes against him.

Also, and I can't stress this enough, how come everyone is just pushing aside mtam's stupidity from the last few pages? He proved he has just skimmed and has literally added nothing to the conversation. He has just been barking over his obsession about lynching me but its gonna be funny when I die and flip town.

This is what scum say every time. I do it when I'm scum to. The thing is it wouldn't be funny if you flip town, it would be bad for us. Also, I'm not going to let myself get lynched because I didn't cast a vote
Vote AoG

Swtiches vote to AoG.

Baiscally his day one consisted of him sheeping the early wagons and then pushing Ultra, Virus and AoG, all three are now very townie. He was never the lead and was always letting someone else take the fall. Both strike and PCM put some good pressure on him but him being a lover saved him from that lynch I would say. Lucky he claimed it.

In day 2 he has pretty much done even less, sheeping along with what ever wagon comes along.

ALSO, somewhat related (and this goes for everyone)... but HOW DO YOU NOT KNOW WHO MY LOVER IS??? IT IS VERY OBVIOUS

This is the post that got me really interested though. He is basically claiming Mtam is his lover here.

I never said that. I would say that at the very beginning the mod said it may be unbalanced. I would also say that for all we know there are only 2 scum and the game is actually really balanced. Unlikely, but none of us know.

So you did say it....

1.The other reviver wasn't a reviver in the same sense that mtam is claiming.
2. Mtam read virus as town all along. Why would he cause confusion if he believed this?
3. Lets do some math: You believe mtam can save a townie (making him townie). Lovers are confirmed the same alignment by the mod. Therefore, what is the logical conclusion here? Oh guess what, I'm townie.

Why did you need it to be said flat out that mtam and I are lovers? You and your scum buddies don't want to mess up with your NK? Everyone else had pretty much accepted it at this point. Hmm... Scummy

Also you changed your vote to streaker and then to me within an hour or so. Why the sudden flip?

1. it was pretty close, not a solid case but something I would of thought would of got Mtam interested. But he completely ignored it. The fact that they are different is interesting. Why does Mtam get a different and more powerful role than Virus who is basically in the same position as you. Infact you are more powerful than Ultra as well and I am happy to say that you are both more powerful than my lover and I. Why the discrepancy? Doesn't seem fair.
2. Because he should of reconsidered his read, his read was based on all lovers are town, which is nice and safe for you two. Someone claims something like that should of made him at least reconsider what he was reading.
3. You math goes out the window if I think you are both scum. Yes if Mtam is town then you are town, and if you dont get lynched then we will know if you are town tomorrow anyways.

Storr, if Mtam is alive tonight can you please consider watching him to see if he has any visitors. I would guess that any visitor to Mtam tonight would be a mafia roleblocker trying to set us up to lynch these two.

[rishaed]

Mod Note: Scene is Scene Flavor is Flavor. I put in what I want, what is important, and write it how I like it. Like 5 of you have asked questions about the scene like Im your new goldmine. I get it, I get it, but please use your heads on the scenes. Its a part of mafia. I'mma gonna stay silent for the next little bit. If you have role questions feel free to ask them, but no more setup/scene questions. I might have answered some considering it common knowledge, but apparently it isn't so...

It's not common knowledge, since different mods put in different things in their scenes... some show everything important that happened that night (such as people being saved, etc), so people know things that happened, others just put in if people died, and are silent on everything else. Knowing which you did/will do can be a help in figuring out things, so in my opinion, to be fair, you should just post whatever it was you told strike wolf, since it isn't role specific info, rather than having us rely on strike's interpretation of what you said.

If you would do just a bit of homework from other games you would be able to figure out what the paragraph means. I mean Storr was sooooo nice to pull up scenes from other games i've modded, the night actions during that period of time are there as well. Its not like I didn't post them when the game was over.

Also VC:
Vote Count:

Hotshot53 (1) - Crasp
Streaker (1) - Pancakemix
aage (2) - Hotshot53, Streaker
Zivel (1) - mtamburini
Whatsausage (1) - Storrzerg
dd515087 (2) - Zivel, ArmyofGod

With 15 alive it takes 8 to lynch. Deadline is the 23rd.

[StorrZerg]

Mod Note: Scene is Scene Flavor is Flavor. I put in what I want, what is important, and write it how I like it. Like 5 of you have asked questions about the scene like Im your new goldmine. I get it, I get it, but please use your heads on the scenes. Its a part of mafia. I'mma gonna stay silent for the next little bit. If you have role questions feel free to ask them, but no more setup/scene questions. I might have answered some considering it common knowledge, but apparently it isn't so...

It's not common knowledge, since different mods put in different things in their scenes... some show everything important that happened that night (such as people being saved, etc), so people know things that happened, others just put in if people died, and are silent on everything else. Knowing which you did/will do can be a help in figuring out things, so in my opinion, to be fair, you should just post whatever it was you told strike wolf, since it isn't role specific info, rather than having us rely on strike's interpretation of what you said.

If you would do just a bit of homework from other games you would be able to figure out what the paragraph means. I mean Storr was sooooo nice to pull up scenes from other games i've modded, the night actions during that period of time are there as well. Its not like I didn't post them when the game was over.

With 15 alive it takes 8 to lynch. Deadline is the 23rd.

Its not our job, to visit your other games and figure our how you host. You could have changed your hosting style since then, new things could have come up. etc etc etc. Old games are what they are, old games. It is bad for the game environment for us to assume things you consider "basic knowledge" to the game.
As far as what i did, that was nice. I could have lied about the information i presented, i'm not the mod, anything i put up in this forum is subjective and i could be manipulating it. Even if it looks like a direct quote, i could have changed it.
Secondly, playing with game information, involved with the flavor of a scene, there are certain things you consider "natural" to happen. Such as a kill block or save. You may even hint what type the killer is, you may do all sorts of different things. As someone who usually avoids playing this style of a game, (i sure as hell don't host games with game information in the flavor). You are giving "clues" to what happened at night, so a bit more information on how you do this would be great. I'm not asking for all details, but what can be expected, or what can happen.

Such as, will blocked kills and medic saves ALWAYS show up in some fashion in the scene? or is it up to your choice if you decide to show a save or not?
Is there anything else that you deem common that would / could show up in the scene?

[Whatsausage]

Here they come, and the only reason so far is a birdy... I figured this would happen soon, with all the people repeating me as possible scum with no reason given. Hear something enough times and it becomes the truth.
So if anyone "pressuring" me would like to talk about why, I'm willing.

Good thinking strike, I would've never considered that, so this more or less clears aog, aage, and hotshot of being killers.

So my targets are down to dd and streaker. Oh wait, mtam has finally claimed to be lovered to dd. So this gives some more credence to dd (at least for now, I'd still like to see mtam use his revival power to prove himself. If he doesn't, I say he and dd are suspicion #1 for tomorrow) so I will unvote

and that just leaves streaker... Probably where my vote will land soon

FP'd by strike

you forgot to include my name in can't be a killer...

I had done it in my prior post when I stated that you are almost certainly a watcher, and the context I was using to state that those guys couldn't be the killer didn't actually clear you, so there was no reason to state it there.

i'll throw down some light accusation. Day 1 you pushed ultra then virus. Then stayed on virus.
In particular i don't like why you pushed virus.

So to answer storr's question from a while back, today I would like us to lynch one of the lovers. My choice right now would be virus. With all the conspiracy theories about why virus can sacrifice himself to save a ultra (just a mason?) it seems likely that it is a bunch of phooey (e.g. they are lying scum lovers), ultra would gain a power from that, or virus would somehow flip town in hiding a scum ultra. All their stories just don't add up for me. Vote virus I know there is a chance that we would lose two townies from this, but I don't think they are and even if they are, we would really just be losing two almost-vanilla's that were tied together anyway.

you don't actually call out any of his actions as scummy. in fact just glancing at your posting, i don't think you mention virus actions as scummy ever.

Lack of activity, disagreement on reads, etc etc etc. nothing.

When I pushed my vote on to virus, it was mostly to do with believing ultra to be scum and virus to be as well by default. The reason for voting virus over ultra was that it didn't make any sense to give ultra what he wanted when I didn't believe him to be town, therefore, I would want to lynch his partner to lynch him instead of just lynching him and having him be saved by his partner and possibly gain a power. So virus was more guilty of his lover's crimes than his own. So my reasons for voting virus once again: at the time I believed a lover lynch was in the best interest of the town, I believed ultra was the scummiest (for reasons I've stated before), and I wasn't going to lynch ultra after his and virus's claim of reviver.

[StorrZerg]

Fair enough then, ill reread your thoughts on why ultra was scummy.

[StorrZerg]

the relationship of whatsausage and ultra.

Spoiler

you don't pressure him at all for his wanting to no lynch. no biggie on that.

As has been summed up before, he really just tried to point scum on nearly everyone who voted him. If the day ended tomorrow, I would be voting for him, but luckily we have 6 days left (more than half of our time) to search for more.

ok the first reason you find him scum, he threw scum on all the people who voted him. Now this isn't a strong lead from you, since you decide to not vote.

@ultra, you seem to have disappeared and this is not a time for that. Vote ultrasplot to put some pressure back on. Tell is what you meant with your softclaim, are you just claiming to be a power role, or did you mean something by the fact of you are" more than just a vote" (ex double voter)?

Ok this is strange, you call him out for being "gone" I checked his posting. He had been posting less than 7 hours since you made this post. Now, i get all the racket for harassing people on their activity, yet here you are when he has been gone 7 hours, forcing a vote on him because he has gone missing (which is grossly exaggerated by your claim of inactivity) and soft claimed and you want the full claim. I don't buy this as a "good" reason to be pushing for his lynch. Specially since you kept such a level head reading why people pushed him (largely he wanted no lynch and you saw that as not being inherently scummy)

The main thing which is funny is you say his defense is weak. yet all the main points of accusing him in your eyes are not alignment indicative. SO shouldn't his defense make sense, since he can't actually defend these points, since it isn't about alignment?

Now when the claim happens, you agree with strike that you should stay focused on the lovers.

1. @ultra- You claimed to be a mason along with a lover. That is like a double scum safeclaim. (Assuming I understand mason correctly, where they can talk with other masons at night and return scum when investigated) Virus claiming to be your partner does give a little credibility because I do doubt there would be a scum lover pair. (but there could be for balance, to even out with two town lover pairs) Could you explain your mason role? Because you should already be able to talk to virus, do you recruit people into another chat or is virus your mason partner?

Now this is a really weird conclusion you are making. Since, you call it "double scum safeclaim" to start. You have a weird assumption that lovers return scum. Now the questions that you end with are fine, pointed questions looking to understand the role.

The only thing that is adding up with what we know in my mind is that ultra is scum, virus would flip town, but his WC is for ultra to live to the end or for ultra to win. Having the "same" win condition would make them the same "alignment" even if one shows scum and one shows town right? I think that is why ultra and virus are so willing to have virus take the lynch in ultra's place, so willing to the point of ultra voting himself. This would be a way for ultra to be "confirmed" town, when he may very well not be.

now i don't get why you are so convinced ultra is scum at this point. The only thing he has done that you view as scummy, was soft claim under pressure weakly. And go "inactive" at a weird time. And throw scum on people who voted him. Now the paranoid aspect of ultra is fine imo, yet its paranoia. This isn't you being convinced he is scum with that end talk.

Yet reviewing the reasons you call him scum, I rebutted many of these comments, to which you ignored. Him throwing scum on people who voted him, I pointed out even though he was doing that, he was making valid points about people and he wasn't just blindly throwing scum on people who called him scum.

The claiming early, was done in a previous game that you had been in. I pointed this out, noted that this was a characteristic of h is play, and it isn't alignment indicative.

So the only thing left is his weak defense of early pressure, because he wanted to no lynch which you viewed as not scummy. So, yeah i don't think you have any strong reasons to vote him.

Your next post regarding ultra/virus is you switching your vote. So thats the end of your ultra case, since your focus switches to making sure virus dies.

Conclusion. I don't think your reasons of pushing ultra, are that great. Specially the timing of when you vote him. It really speaks more about someone who wants the claim, than someone who finds that person scummy. Earlier in the game, you kept "defending" ultra, or in actually not agreeing with lynching him over his choice of no lynch. Some people even stated "stop defending your scum buddy" I think this is where you started to change. After this point, you start going with the wagon, the wagon is all ready pretty large at this point (you are the 7th person to place a vote on him) Regarding ultras opinions on other people you do not talk about his reads at all, you give no thought or opinion on them. The closest thing you say is in regards to ultra throwing scum on those who called him scum, you don't actually look into the reasons he called some people scum instead i feel you sheep streakers push blanketing ultra reads as all scum.

[UltrasPlot]

Hotshot53 (1) - Crasp
Streaker (1) - Pancakemix
aage (2) - Hotshot53, Streaker
Zivel (1) - mtamburini
Whatsausage (1) - Storrzerg
dd515087 (2) - Zivel, ArmyofGod

Interestng... there's no real wagon building up. Seems to me like scum votes are scattered or they have not voted at all... as yesterday was very scum bandwagon filled. Now, mtam and dd are virtually confirmed same alignment therefore:
6. aage
8.Ultrasplot
10.Whatsausage
12.Anamainiacks
14.dd515187
16.Strikewolf
17. TFO

Highlighted here is a potential mafia team which actually makes quite a bit of sense. Streaker's claim of blocking me is weak as I had claimed no Night action Day One. dd and mtam could be scum lover and reviver (hence why mtam's power is unlimited). Whatsausage is yet to claim (don't yet... no need) but also pushed me for lynch.

The interesting thing is that HotShot and Streaker quite nearly counterclaimed each other, Streaker potentially hoping for a HotShot lynch. DD has been shying from proving his commuter role (which makes little to no sense... HotShot is claimed jk and if he doesn't guard you next night we have confirmed scum...) mtam has been... well... crazy. ALTHOUGH he argued in my favor D1, his argument was so ill-presented that it had an almost negative effect - all it did was give him pretext for not pushing Ultra the next day.

Now what do all of these have in common? They were on the initial Ultra wagon and the AoG wagon, with the exception of mtam, who called for an AoG lynch and then everyone took ex post facto evidence without consideration of why he pushed initially. At day end the quadruplet's votes were all on what are now confirmed town by death. None of them made extremely insightful posts.

Assuming this is true, the votes are 1 aage; 1 Zivel; 2 yet to cast. I suspect we will see a similar strategy today to gather a mislynch: Streaker pushes aage (he has already done this but the wagon lost its steam); mtam pushes Zivel until he slips (not happened yet); and the other two join on the wagon, just like before.

Consider this conjecture and see if it fits together well.

[UltrasPlot]

c. Extensions
An extension may be granted for a day if requested by 3 separate people.
Extensions will be for 48 hours.
There can be two extensions per day and no night extensions will be given.

Requesting extension

Two people post this too please. I believe currently HotShot is getting lynched, deadline is tomorrow, while this needs a lot more discussion and lots of people haven't checked in / made relevant comments.

addendum I: As for why I've shifted off aage: the above was an extremely townie move to make. He would not have been blamed in the event of no extension and a mislynch. It also seems probable that his role is true looking through past rishaed games. (I'm trying to find a votecount in early day two, expect a triple post)

[UltrasPlot]

addendum II: Hotshot53 (5) - mtamburini, Storrzerg, ArmyofGod, Crasp, Strikewolf
Storrzerg (2) - Hotshot53, Pancakemix

This is the early day two votecount. All of my conjectured scum candidates are rather inactive, except mtam, lynching HotShot. His position on HotShot has since reversed however, which I must admit is strange if he is supporting a scum Streaker. These candidates were also rather quick to pile on aage after Storr and I placed votes on him. I believe this may indeed be worth further investigation.

[UltrasPlot]

addendum III: Lynch dd

dd, I would like to hear your defense against this conjecture I have posted.

[Streaker]

@Whatsausage: I sheeped HotShot's vote, but I made a post on Aage before. I also stated I simply forgot to vote in the first post, and was relatively quick to adjust this.

Again, here also, voting me without actually presenting a case. You stated you basicly voted on me for sheeping. And now what are you doing?

@Streaker surly it can't be that hard to figure out why mod said he messed up. The order of who was first doesn't matter since the result is the same. Nor does it matter how he noticed the mess up.

Explain why anyone should be lynched within aage, hotshot, storr, aog.

I assume you will say that aage and i are together, if that's the case, I want you to explain what motivation we would of had to do the push on hotshot, and force the claim of 1 towns person, and claiming 2 mafia roles

Agreed that mod had to come out with a correction. Though it does matter that you were first, as that gives you some town credit. You have been adjusting your claim several times, and if you were to do this again after mod post, it would be more suspicious.

You list 4 people:

-Aage: made a post on him and voted.
-HotShot: I tried to counterclaim, which I should not have done. Still writing this off on over-enthousiasme.
-Storr: Unwilling to claim, changing claim as situation rises, several bigger cases by other players
-AoG: maybe it's just him. He always seems scummy. Not gonna look into him today, as I'd like to focus on either Aage, or DD today.

Lynching DD, I am reading him slightly scum. Though risking 2 towns dying is bad, I also risked the same with Ultra.
This lynch will probably be decided on 'is their 3 town lover pairs', or 'are there even 3 lover pairs'.

[mtamburini]

addendum III: Lynch dd

dd, I would like to hear your defense against this conjecture I have posted.

The conjecture is retarded, I think we should lynch you if cause your going to lynch a town and then prob shoot two other towns. Saving 3 lifes for the price of one.

DD and I are both town, we both questioned the shit out of eachother in our chat at night and the way he did it was he was suspect of me possibly being mafia.

Now vote sausage

UNVOTE VOTE WHATSAUSAGE

Because there is no sausage.

[mtamburini]

addendum III: Lynch dd

dd, I would like to hear your defense against this conjecture I have posted.

The conjecture is retarded, I think we should lynch you if cause your going to lynch a town and then prob shoot two other towns. Saving 3 lifes for the price of one.

DD and I are both town, we both questioned the shit out of eachother in our chat at night and the way he did it was he was suspect of me possibly being mafia.

Now vote sausage

UNVOTE VOTE WHATSAUSAGE

Because there is no sausage.

Is He ends up being town (which I dont think he will)

Then Ill revive him and prove im town and dd is as well.

[StorrZerg]

sounds good boys

[mtamburini]

sounds good boys

Hotshot should be on DD IMO as when I die there is a good chance DD will die as well based on my role PM, this may or may not protect him but its worth trying to keep another townie in this game.

[StorrZerg]

sounds good boys

Hotshot should be on DD IMO as when I die there is a good chance DD will die as well based on my role PM, this may or may not protect him but its worth trying to keep another townie in this game.

do you plan on using your power if whatsausage is mafia? (not on him obviously, but on virus) Or will you hold it?

[Whatsausage]

@Whatsausage: I sheeped HotShot's vote, but I made a post on Aage before. I also stated I simply forgot to vote in the first post, and was relatively quick to adjust this.

Again, here also, voting me without actually presenting a case. You stated you basicly voted on me for sheeping. And now what are you doing?

Not sure if this is actually supposed to be directed at me, since I don't recall saying anything about your vote on aage. Also, I never voted you.

Highlighted here is a potential mafia team which actually makes quite a bit of sense. Streaker's claim of blocking me is weak as I had claimed no Night action Day One. dd and mtam could be scum lover and reviver (hence why mtam's power is unlimited). Whatsausage is yet to claim (don't yet... no need) but also pushed me for lynch.

Now what do all of these have in common? They were on the initial Ultra wagon and the AoG wagon, with the exception of mtam, who called for an AoG lynch and then everyone took ex post facto evidence without consideration of why he pushed initially. At day end the quadruplet's votes were all on what are now confirmed town by death. None of them made extremely insightful posts.

First paragraph, I guess I can see why you think I'm scummy for voting you, but at that time only you (and virus) (and scum) knew you to be town. But if you want to put scum on everyone who voted for town on D1, you are going to end up lynching mostly town, especially since all the main votes on D1 ended up town.

Second paragraph, I did end up on the original wagon for you, but I never switched to the AoG wagon, so we'll let that be another exception. Again, I did end the day on a confirmed town (virus), but that in itself isn't a scum move, as town vote for other town all the time.

the relationship of whatsausage and ultra.
Spoiler deleted for time constraints, it appears most of the points are brought up again in conclusion
Conclusion. I don't think your reasons of pushing ultra, are that great. Specially the timing of when you vote him. It really speaks more about someone who wants the claim, than someone who finds that person scummy. Earlier in the game, you kept "defending" ultra, or in actually not agreeing with lynching him over his choice of no lynch. Some people even stated "stop defending your scum buddy" I think this is where you started to change. After this point, you start going with the wagon, the wagon is all ready pretty large at this point (you are the 7th person to place a vote on him) Regarding ultras opinions on other people you do not talk about his reads at all, you give no thought or opinion on them. The closest thing you say is in regards to ultra throwing scum on those who called him scum, you don't actually look into the reasons he called some people scum instead i feel you sheep streakers push blanketing ultra reads as all scum.

The timing and the reason do speak more to someone who wanted the claim. Actually, that is why I voted. He had been spinning his way around a softclaim that really didn't turn out to be true. Generally the desired result of D1 (imo) is that the first wagon (which is usually caused by a rather weak case, as that is all that can really be made short of a major mistake) results in a claim, and then that claim is either accepted and everyone moves on to (usually a lynch due to limited time, but sometimes another wagon resulting in a claim) someone else, or the claim is deemed to be worth the risk of lynching. So originally I placed my vote to get a claim, and then I left it on because of what the claim was. As the day went along, he became more scummy in my eyes. So I left my vote on, some reasons were in fact sheeped and others I was too lazy and assumed were implied (stupid thing to do yes). So at the time of my vote, I didn't believe him to be as scummy as I did after his claim and then his and virus's ever changing stories.

[StorrZerg]

in what way was his soft claim not true?

[mtamburini]

sounds good boys

Hotshot should be on DD IMO as when I die there is a good chance DD will die as well based on my role PM, this may or may not protect him but its worth trying to keep another townie in this game.

do you plan on using your power if whatsausage is mafia? (not on him obviously, but on virus) Or will you hold it?

I could bring bak virus

[Whatsausage]

in what way was his soft claim not true?

"You lose more than a vote if I die"
He claimed not to have any power beyond lover, and he didn't believe his lover would die if he did. I am pretty sure at that point he didn't know about virus' power, but even if he did then, all we would lose if he was lynched would be virus' vote. So from what he claims to have known (eg, didn't know he would gain anything from virus' sacrifice) he really didn't count as more than a vote.

[StorrZerg]

in what way was his soft claim not true?

"You lose more than a vote if I die"
He claimed not to have any power beyond lover, and he didn't believe his lover would die if he did. I am pretty sure at that point he didn't know about virus' power, but even if he did then, all we would lose if he was lynched would be virus' vote. So from what he claims to have known (eg, didn't know he would gain anything from virus' sacrifice) he really didn't count as more than a vote.

Lots of the claims came at different points in time.
first is true if he believes the normal definition of lover. Which at the time he had no reason to doubt since no other claims had happened.

Him believing his lover wouldn't die comes later when mod doesn't confirm what happens when lovers die, so this point is verified with 2 other lover claims.

So the progression of his claim makes sense.

You can't prove he lied about not knowing he would gain powers upon virus death.

How ever his claim of losing more than a vote is valid when he claimed it. Hence when more questions got answered his willingness to be lynched to prove his claim reality makes sense.

So with the information at the time, with what you knew and what he said, you pushed a false reason for his lynch.

[Zivel]

Ok so let me get this straight. We lynch whatsausage and mtam brings him back if he is town. Storr needs to watch mtam to see if there is a mafia roleblocker. Have you taken into account a mafia busdriver? Can we do anything about that?

I like this plan. It does not really matter who we lynch then. If dd dies with mtam we are sacrificing two townies here but mafia are going to kill them anyway. I will try and catch up on tue whatsausage case today.

Lets hope I am not right about a dd/mtam scum pair.

[StorrZerg]

Ok so let me get this straight. We lynch whatsausage and mtam brings him back if he is town. Storr needs to watch mtam to see if there is a mafia roleblocker. Have you taken into account a mafia busdriver? Can we do anything about that?

I like this plan. It does not really matter who we lynch then. If dd dies with mtam we are sacrificing two townies here but mafia are going to kill them anyway. I will try and catch up on tue whatsausage case today.

Lets hope I am not right about a dd/mtam scum pair.

still a bunch of uncertainty with whats going on. so we can't exactly telegraph what should be done.
Just pointing out, mafia could block tamb, and i could die, thus this would prevent any information from being gathered.

alt. its possible that mafia might have a power that evades /watch/track.

Now, i will try to make the best decision with my action, and everyone else should as well, so having "guidelines" in place i think is acceptable. Since we should also be accounting for the event of a mafia flip today.

[strike wolf]

Alright it took me a long time but I got my thoughts down on Whatsausage. I quoted almost every post so I will spoiler tag it so people can quickly read past it when going back through. That said I strongly encourage everyone to at least read it once:

Spoiler

I am going to try to view his posts from as neutral a starting point as possible but considering that I was probably already a bit biased coming into this case, I am not sure how well I will get to that. I'll also be responding as I read up:

First couple of posts in game. Nothing major just joke voting and saying maybe storr might come after him.

Not a big fan of day 1 reads or of playing my hand so early but a rishead has brought attention to me here are my reads so far.
I dont think Ultra is scum as no self respecting scum would make such a daft play. Just a really bad move on his part. Could get a deserved lynch though.

You did an excellent job of doing that yourself actually with basically saying "We are only required to post once every four days, so that is when I'll post." You aren't exactly screaming town when you are saying you are going to do the very minimum.
Perhaps he is hiding in plain sight? Yes a bad move. Yes it could be a lynchable offense, but I would rate it pretty equal to your offense, if we are lynching on principle like that. Although as has already been mentioned, why would he single out the cop result like that? In a game with 17 people I would assume there is more than just a cop that would help town to gather info at night.

Also, about my vote on milkshake, it was a joke vote but it doesn't appear to be counted in the VC. Is this a mistake rishead?

FP'd by storr 2x

First fully serious post. Kind of a light defense of Ultra but more of an attack on Crasp for his comment that was supposedly about only posting every posting 4 days. A bit noteworthy that Crasp had already addressed this and said that wasn't actually his plan. States that Ultra is scummy but seems to favor Crasp right now.

First off, my goodness some of you are grasping hardcore at nothing when you are actually accusing anark for his very early "let's all jump on pcm" joke. You've got to be kidding me if you took that as a serious idea.

God you bleed town anamainiacks

Have to agree, that was a solid first post and explained coherently why we vote day one.

I am still pushing for an Ultra lynch, he has not come back to defend himself and so is either afk or lurking. Till I hear more from him, I am happy for him to die today.

Will come back later after shopping with a more comprehensive list.

So because he had a post agreeing with you he bleeds town? Most of his post was meta-based (the benefits of lynching D1) and that is normally the type of thing you like to jump on. What gives? That wasn't questioning/ pressuring/ giving reads.

And then zivel hops right on to agree as well.
Followed by promising a list we have yet to see (I'd give him more time on it, but it has been a decently long shopping trip)

Right now I am getting scum vibes from zivel

Fp'd by storr
somewhat talks about my question

Appears to be playing the skeptic at this point. Talking down both Town and Scum reads early on. Not necessarily scummy on its own. Pushes that Zivel is scummy. Notes Anamainiack's big post as being mostly meta-based about Day 1 play. I agree and disagree with this. A decent part was meta-based but so was a lot of the talk at the point because a lot of what AoG and Ultra were arguing with the No Lynch suggestion at the time was a meta argument. Still Anamainiacks did go into other issues too. He had a reasonable sized section on Nark and other issues.

That is as in depth analysis as you can get at this point in the game. It is asking questions and it forcing people to think about motivations. That is town play, not 'I am getting scum vibes' with little to back up. I am finding storr town at the moment and I read that post and saw that he said what I was thinking so I quoted his post and sheeped along.

You need to come up with something more interesting than that to deflect my attention from your scum buddy Ultra

Oh no ultra! We've been found out!

The problems I have with what you quoted. (Requoted here and responses in green)

Pretty much your case on PCM so far... I thought you were throwing around the comments as a joke before, but we're clearly not joking around anymore. And he isn't asking people to vote for pcm anymore Your only justification for your scheme so far is pretty much "I've played mafia with him for a long time" (which means he's scum... how?), it doesn't, it was a p3 joke and that you "like to give him shit". All this after people have asked for proper support to your suspicions, and you in turn accuse them of skimming. The accusation of skimming was saying people missed the joke, as storr said he did
And you've basically ignored everything that everyone else has commented aside from their comments directed to you, which feels as though you're trying to take everyone's attention off the reads on each other, and going, "Stop all the constructive conversation! Let's all just vote PCM because I like to give him shit!" First part yes, second part no. He hasn't added much to anything else (although there hasn't been much else) but you keep acting like he is still trying to commence with his "scheme"

Well if you had read everything that's been said regarding why and how Day 1 is useful, then you needn't be asking this question. The information you're asking about can even be found on the same page as this post of yours. So if you're asking us to pressure the skimmers, you'd definitely be one of them.

Your play isn't necessarily scummy, but it sure isn't helpful or constructive at this point.

So even if we do end up settling for a no lynch, advocating it at this point is asking us to ignore/cut short all conversations so far, and totally remove possibility of any scum slips in the rest of Day 1 - of which we have 8.5 real days left, if I'm not wrong. I don't believe this is directed to anark anymore

I got a scum read from you being the second to agree with this. It mixes slight bandwagoning along with what I perceive to be a mostly poor argument (The only valid point being that it is most of what he has talked about, but that is really the nature of the beast on D1, especially when you are being targeted for it). It seemed to me like you were too quick to agree along with storr that you are buddying a little bit with him

FP'd by zivel 2x

Backs up why he felt the Anamainiack's post was bad. Reinforces why he has doubts about Zivel. I would read this post as townish.

Also, right now, Ultra is giving me the strongest townie read. It's an incredibly stupid move for mafia to want a no lynch D1 because it immediately brings a negative, "you're obviously scum" reaction. like ultra said, I think bandwagoning on a person who recommended a no lynch is much worse than actually voting no lynch.

Your strongest town read, really? I'm not saying that ultra is scum because of that, and maybe this is just on principle, but I have a hard time with: "he made a bad move and scum wouldn't do something that bad so he must be town". I get that scum tend to be more careful, but they are just as capable of making bad plays.

Agree with this logic.

So what do you want me to do lol?

I have a town read on him

You could explain that town read

No problem with the point made in the post. Doesn't really address some of what's happened.

Overall impression to this point: I would lean town. Not perfect play but nothing that is really setting off big red flags for me either.

Moving on:

FYI: Town loses more than a vote if I die.

Not sure if softclaim just meaning non-vanilla or more specific to multiple votes.

really don't have that much on him. the one thing i do have, which i don't like is the manner of which he asks questions. The follow up seems to be lacking, and there is no continuation of discussion. Its mostly just him quoting someone, but not following up with it.

So what do you want me to do lol?

I have a town read on him

You could explain that town read

So like this, i did, yet he doesn't have any comment?

I haven't posted since then, so no I hadn't gotten around to commenting on it yet. You talk about four of his posts specifically. One of which you say is "crappy" another is "not alignment indicative". So neither of those are leading you to have a strong town read on him. One of the others is "long for early game" and "shows he isn't planning to afk." You said he brought up a read on ultra, but that happened to be very similar to the read that AOG had made and had been discussed, so not really bringing any new discussion in like you say he is. Really the only thing about that post to like imo is that he mentioned the positioning of streaker's vote for an fos. And then for the other post you reference, he is answering your question by saying he won't answer it because there was no reason to. This is apparently the answer you were looking for, so you asked a loaded question and he "passed". He mentions that you were steering him away from zivel (who he hasn't gone back to). I don't see this really leading to a town read. He has other posts that I could see swaying you, but I don't understand why you chose these to make your case.

First off, my goodness some of you are grasping hardcore at nothing when you are actually accusing anark for his very early "let's all jump on pcm" joke. You've got to be kidding me if you took that as a serious idea.

God you bleed town anamainiacks

Have to agree, that was a solid first post and explained coherently why we vote day one.

I am still pushing for an Ultra lynch, he has not come back to defend himself and so is either afk or lurking. Till I hear more from him, I am happy for him to die today.

Will come back later after shopping with a more comprehensive list.

So because he had a post agreeing with you he bleeds town? Most of his post was meta-based (the benefits of lynching D1) and that is normally the type of thing you like to jump on. What gives? That wasn't questioning/ pressuring/ giving reads.

And then zivel hops right on to agree as well.
Followed by promising a list we have yet to see (I'd give him more time on it, but it has been a decently long shopping trip)

Right now I am getting scum vibes from zivel

Fp'd by storr
somewhat talks about my question

Seems that it wasn't worth the effort to revise his post since i posted before him. again, he sees what i posted before hand, and it answers some questions, but no follow up.
what didnt i respond to? why isn't he interested in that?

I also didn't have time to rewrite my post then, and since then I let animainiacks (sorry if sp) slip my mind as he hadn't posted. My bad. But my question was still there for you to answer more completely on your own. So his reads agreed with your own, you liked how he got there, and....? Or is that all it takes?

Continues to butt heads with Storr. Mostly a defensive post going after Storr calling him out with a brief nod to Ultra's soft-claim, not weighing in on how he feels about it.

FYI: Town loses more than a vote if I die.

Not sure if softclaim just meaning non-vanilla or more specific to multiple votes.

As I said in my previous post, it's an NV game. I don't see the value of this comment, it just seems to be laying a foundation for Ultra to get off the block. Is your town read of him so strong?
This post adds up to the red flag I discussed earlier concerning Whatsausage and Ultra.

I guess I should've worded it "Are you claiming just to be nonvanilla, or are you actually talking more directly about votes?" Not sure why you felt the need to reference your previous post (which was after this quote) besides to build up your town cred. "Look everyone, I noticed that this game in non-vanilla!" I was in no way trying to get ultra off the block. Not really sure how you got that out of what I said besides possibly the wording. I was looking for him to expound on that soft-claim to see of it was truly a pointless claim like you say. (That would be the "value of my comment") I don't have a strong town read on him, in fact I am leaning scum. I don't believe his no-lynch vote is alignment indicative, because I believe that he believes a no-lynch D1 is best for town. However, his defense of himself has been rather lacking. As has been summed up before, he really just tried to point scum on nearly everyone who voted him. If the day ended tomorrow, I would be voting for him, but luckily we have 6 days left (more than half of our time) to search for more.

As far as me buddying up with him, you have this and me joking in response to a joke? (you may not have seen zivel's post that way, but I did.)

@UltrasPlot if i claimed VT would i be a decent lynch for today?

Yes. There are no VTs.

Again you feel the need to point out that you know the game is non-vanilla, even though the question was not directed at you. I feel like this (answering a trapping question for him) is closer to helping out ultra than anything I did.

At this point he seems to be getting irritated. Backs up that he leans scum around Ultra which isn't inconsistent from his earlier statements, however he hasn't really gone much out of his way to talk about Ultra directly until now mostly referencing him through other people.

As far as me buddying up with him, you have this and me joking in response to a joke?

Yes, but it's more about what you haven't done. There is the fact that you never directly addressed Ultra's no lynch vote before this post, even though it dominated discussion for quite some time. Zivel's remark about deflecting attention was fully correct. Your response to it looks like it's forced, not like a joke. And it again deflects attention because you still don't discuss it. Then you post this and tell off AoG, but never address Ultra. Clearly you don't have a scum read on him, otherwise you would've mentioned it (and you wouldn't have made that alleged joke), but AoG having a town read on him is bad? That's why I think it's fishy, and that's why I see a connection.
So because I chose not to discuss the merits of voting no-lynch (a discussion that wasn't really benefitting town), I was deflecting attention? You can't have it both ways. I brought up a new read instead of repeating like everyone else that I thought no-lynching was bad D1 because such and such a statistic. I hadn't really covered ultra's no lynch vote (besides saying it didn't mean on its own that he's scum) because instead of beating that discussion into the ground I chose to go a different direction. Not sure how my response look forced, but perhaps my opinion is biased because I know it wasn't forced means I am blind to how it looks to you. My scum read on him has grown since then (although still not strong), back then I was more neutral. AOG having a town read on him wasn't bad in and of itself, his reasoning for it was.

@UltrasPlot if i claimed VT would i be a decent lynch for today?

Yes. There are no VTs.

Again you feel the need to point out that you know the game is non-vanilla, even though the question was not directed at you. I feel like this (answering a trapping question for him) is closer to helping out ultra than anything I did.

The fact that the game is non-vanilla is a damning argument against Ultra in the light of his soft claim, imo. Yet, Storr and especially Zivel had the exact opposite reaction. I'm repeating the fact that it's NV because I want to know if they were aware.

@Storr, yes I did vote in the first post of three.

So it's damning to ultra if he wasn't aware the game was non-vanilla, but if storr and zivel weren't it is your duty to inform them? I don't see how the game being non-vanilla is damning to ultra, since it isn't like he claimed vanilla. He also didn't answer storr's question because you got there first. (I don't believe he has posted since then though) If he had answered that question (and I think storr knew the game was NV and was seeing how much ultra knew about how pointless his softclaim was) in such a fashion that he was only saying he shouldn't be voted because he was non-vanilla, then it would be damning for his lack of reasoning.

That above part got a little wordy, more simply put: It all depends on what ultra meant with his softclaim. If he was trying to save himself by claiming just NV, then that is poor and I think that is what storr was trying to find out.

@ultra, you seem to have disappeared and this is not a time for that. Vote ultrasplot to put some pressure back on. Tell is what you meant with your softclaim, are you just claiming to be a power role, or did you mean something by the fact of you are" more than just a vote" (ex double voter)?

Still on the defensive which seems to be distracting him from commenting on the developing game. The vote on Ultra seems a bit forced as with what Storr said himself, he hadn't actually disappeared for all that long.

Well that escalated quickly. Making sure I have it straight here...
1. Ultra is pressured until he softclaims to be more than a vote
2. Ultra finally comes out and claims lover/mason
3. Zivel claims to be in a different lover pair where both are confirmed town
4. Dd comes out in yet another lover pair, thinks ultra scummy and zivel towny
5. Dd makes a "list post" in which he doesn't realize that crazymilkshake has been replaced (also ponders if all lovers are town)
6. Zivel doesn't think dd should've claimed
7. Streaker isn't sure what to think. Says first it is bad town for dd to claim, but then again maybe not
8. Zivel confirms that he started the game as a non-vanilla lover (as well as his partner), also regretful for calling out dd
9. Zivel repeats that they are confirmed town and believes that other pairs would have same guarantee
10. Virus is ultra's lover. Also claims that mod confirmed both to be town
11. Virus again says that mod confirmed both to be town, this time says it occurred in QT
12. After strike poses options, virus doesn't think both die at a time
(Do I have that all correct?)

So that gives us (if all are telling the truth)
1. ultra and virus as confirmed town to each other
2. zivel and player X as confirmed town to each other
3. dd and player Y have not yet said to be confirmed town to each other

I agree with strike. There is still too much left unknown to leave the claimed lovers totally and begin a different direction.
A few questions:
1. @ultra- You claimed to be a mason along with a lover. That is like a double scum safeclaim. (Assuming I understand mason correctly, where they can talk with other masons at night and return scum when investigated) Virus claiming to be your partner does give a little credibility because I do doubt there would be a scum lover pair. (but there could be for balance, to even out with two town lover pairs) Could you explain your mason role? Because you should already be able to talk to virus, do you recruit people into another chat or is virus your mason partner?

2. @dd- Did you get this same mod confirmation for you and your partner being both town aligned?

3. @everyone- Do we want to assume there are only the three pairs, or should we ask all to come forward now or never? It seems at this point, the further it goes along the easier it would be for a scum to come forward as another lover when questioned and be able to say all the things that the exposed lovers have said.

4. @all lovers- Do you know if you die together or not? Or would you just assume because of what the role is?

and dont you think thats a bit to easy for mafia? lets assume that there are 3 lovers. and 1 of them is mafia. 2 kills --> 4 town deaths for that reason a mislynch on one out of 6 lovers -> 2 deaths.
6/17 (or more) are lovers. this game would go south pretty quickly then.

This logic is why I tend to believe one of the lover pairs (or even just one lover) could be scum. To balance it a little bit without really compromising the common perception of the role (that they die together). Wouldn't it be terribly OP for all 6 (or more) lovers to be town, know that the other is town for sure, not die together, and have an additional PR?
I really doubt that all of these are the case unless the scum faction is quite large (5-6) and has multiple KP.

I like this post because it does show that he knows what's going on with the game and is asking questions to help establish what it actually means. Casts slight doubt onto Ultra and virus and suggests that one of the lover pairs (or just one lover) could be scum.

Thoughts to this point: More mixed. I still see some townish behavior but it bothers me that the Ultra vote felt somewhat forced and did miss some discussion. I can't really expect him to comment on everything but very noteworthy.

So because I chose not to discuss the merits of voting no-lynch (a discussion that wasn't really benefitting town), I was deflecting attention? You can't have it both ways. I brought up a new read instead of repeating like everyone else that I thought no-lynching was bad D1 because such and such a statistic. I hadn't really covered ultra's no lynch vote (besides saying it didn't mean on its own that he's scum) because instead of beating that discussion into the ground I chose to go a different direction. Not sure how my response look forced, but perhaps my opinion is biased because I know it wasn't forced means I am blind to how it looks to you. My scum read on him has grown since then (although still not strong), back then I was more neutral. AOG having a town read on him wasn't bad in and of itself, his reasoning for it was.

Yes. The discussion wasn't a liability to the town at the point of origin, the useless part was that it was dragged out for such a long time. I'm not having it both ways. You didn't waste a single syllable on the main discussion of that day and you think that's pro-town? You could have bothered to mention your opinion on the subject, as that is the point of a discussion.

No, I didn't flat out state my opinion that no lynch on Day 1 is generally bad. I chose not to contribute to a discussion that didn't really add to the game and I do feel that is pro-town. So while it was a discussion, I didn't believe it was a beneficial discussion (it really belonged in a mafia strategy/meta forum). While the discussion wasn't a "liability to town" I chose not to add to the "useless part."

Someone should be able to parse my claim and realize what I mean. (I traditionally play with outside communication so that was an example of something I would've done under those circumstances, PMing my role to only the most trusted)

Regardless, someone follow this thought path:

• Assume I am town.
• Figure out why I would post that assuming I am town.

I think you will realize why...

(As for assuming I am town, it is for this thought process only.)

It implies Town Mason to me. Irrelevant role that can be faked by mafia. If it's something else, please claim fully, this mystery is not helping your cause. Why are you so vague, do you think it helps, or does it only stall?

Good call on the mason, and I agree with you asking why he was vague like that. I don't see how that helps anyone, because the scum are just as capable of figuring out what he meant as town are, so it's not like he was hiding it from them. Really just stalling the inevitable (that someone will figure it out and call out his claim for him or he will have to full claim.)

Fp'd by storr
Well ultra said he was a mason, I don't know if he meant that was in addition to lover or if that's just how he interpreted his lover role. I asked about it in my question 1 above

Which leads me to another question for the lovers.
Are you told your partner's power or did they have to tell you themselves?

Don't know if this question really has bearing on the game. Would like to hear the reasoning for it explained.

@ whatsausage, well he can but i can aswell. i actually already did. see your own point 11.

11. Virus again says that mod confirmed both to be town, this time says it occurred in QT
12. After strike poses options, virus doesn't think both die at a time
(Do I have that all correct?)

and to answer 12 yes your summary was correct.

i can also explain why he partially claimed, that was because in our QT i asked ultra, before you go down try to link something to me, something that i can prove i was a duo with you in case you get lynched. It was not my intention that he did it like this, thats not how indept we discussed it, and if we had discussed i would have advised him to do it otherwise cause lol even i thought it was scummy / not very handy. so i asked a vague note somwhere but not as obvious as it turned out, and not effect immediatly but well that ship has sailed with the press of the submit button.

To answer another question of Whatsausage
we are masoned lovers, with a QT. i assumed the other lovers have it aswell as i thought someone said something about them both having power roles -> hence they are either mafia or have a QT themselfs.

Yup 100%. Even mod confirmed. Started the game as a lover with my role pm. Not a vanilla lover though. My partner and I both have abilities as well.

So for your first part, I am not totally sure what you are trying to answer, I can only assume from the wording that you are referring to the question I directed at ultra. But you answer that question later... So you two have been talking all day, but apparently not as much as you'd like.

The way I have come to understand it is that the power that ultra and virus have is that they are masons and able to talk during the day, whereas the others can only talk at night and have a different extra power. I was content with this belief until I reread your last part zivel (in red) That is a very quick jump to them being scum with your other possibility not really lining up with what you've been saying so far about your won powers

Fp'd a lot my goodness

Still seems to be trying to figure out the lover situation. I don't really read anything scummy from this comment.

New thought: what if all of us who have claimed lovers are town and this is just an evil twist rishaed is throwing on us... We could all be screwed
I'm tired and going to bed, I have gone through almost everything. Here are some general reads:

1.Hotshot53- leaning town
2.Pancakemix - Neutral/ leaning town
3.mtamburini - town
4.Streaker - not sure about you yet, going to have to go back through all your posts
5.Virus90- scummy
6.aage - town
7.Storrzerg - was town at first, but the more I read the more scummy he seems... going to go back through
8.Ultrasplot - scummy
9.Zivel - leaning town
10.Whatsausage - scummy
11.Army of God - scummy
12.Anamainiacks - leaning town
13.Crasp - need to find more posts
14.dd515087 - charming, easy on the eyes, I would have his children
(14.dd515187 was town, dissapeared. he played more active last game and he was mafia there.)
^ streaker's read from a couple days ago - decided to include it because it was the only one on me that didn't say "he's scum for being inactive" IIRC
15.Anarkistsdream - Neutral, leaning scum
16.Strikewolf - probably the town mayor honestly
17.Crazymilkshake5 - uhh... I don't remember seeing anyone with this name

If anyone has comments or concerns or would like to know more, you can reach me on this forum (possibly )

So this is back a couple pages, but here I am with comments/concerns DD.
Previously you read anark, myself, and aage as scum with no reasons provided. And now in this post, anark has become primarily neutral, aage has become town, and I have stayed the same while you have added AOG, ultra, and virus to the scum list.
So what are reasons for the original scum reads, the changes, and the current scum reads. (You can also give reasons for your town reads)

Attacks DD's post. It's probably noteworthy that he seems to be the first to do so with this post as it got kind of buried in the lover's squabbles. Overall, He asks a couple of good questions while pointing out discrepancies.

since i dont want to givve any reason for a modkill im gonna summarize only the important stuff

so my full claim:
name: Yuuki Asuna,
ability: shield lover
explanation ability: if ultra dies i get a pm and i can choose to revive him at cost of my own live. (this is for both day and night kills)

Okay, but why would you do that? Ultra has no further use since he has no power role and you are just as much confirmed townie as he would be. Stuff like empathy aside, why would you get yourself killed if it doesnt help you or your game goals? You know you are a townie! Do you have a death wish?


I fear what pcm said... either Ultra is throwing you under the bus, or you're just both lying.

The fact that he other two lovers have inconsistent stories does not help. Rish mak
ing a point of being vague also points to foul play, though I'd rather not use that argument.

aage makes a good point here, why would you off yourself when you know your alignment 100% no doubt about it? A promise? While wanting to keep a promise is understandable, why did you make the promise in the first place? Ultra claims to not have any other power, so he isn't any more valuable to town than you are.

The only thing that is adding up with what we know in my mind is that ultra is scum, virus would flip town, but his WC is for ultra to live to the end or for ultra to win. Having the "same" win condition would make them the same "alignment" even if one shows scum and one shows town right? I think that is why ultra and virus are so willing to have virus take the lynch in ultra's place, so willing to the point of ultra voting himself. This would be a way for ultra to be "confirmed" town, when he may very well not be.

@zivel, now i'd love to know who your partner is. since i do think you are town, how ever i understand why its probably for the best to not announce that yet.

I don't understand the purpose of this statement. I think we all want to know, but you say yourself that it isn't the best yet. It seems a little off to me to bring it up and shoot it down like that. Why bring it up at all?

So this is back a couple pages, but here I am with comments/concerns DD.
Previously you read anark, myself, and aage as scum with no reasons provided. And now in this post, anark has become primarily neutral, aage has become town, and I have stayed the same while you have added AOG, ultra, and virus to the scum list.
So what are reasons for the original scum reads, the changes, and the current scum reads. (You can also give reasons for your town reads)

The original reads were my thoughts on like half the game at the moment. I felt like I needed to post something after I was prodded, after reading through the rest of the posts I changed my mind.
As for Ultra and virus... Did you skim through everything? They have been read as scum for numerous reasons: poor reads, weird votes, calling each other scum and then coming out as lovers... Do I need to say more? I will go back and quote everything if necessary, but if you read through the last 4ish pages you will find everything on them.

Alright I was really looking for what changed your mind, and actually I thought about putting "these may be a bit more obvious" behind ultra and virus, but now you have at least clarified that they are your thoughts. So no, you don't need to say any more on them, but perhaps you could share why you lessened on anark and made aage town?

The first part here doesn't really feel like it added anything new here on the Virus/Ultra case though he did state he was mostly agreeing with Aage. 2nd paragraph goes into one of day 1's tin foil hat theories. 2nd part questions Storr's comments about Zivel's lover. 3rd part continues to question DD about his reads. States that he understands why on some of the reads but still wants answers on Nark and Aage. Tend to agree that DD wasn't specific here on those two. Overall impression of the post, neutral.

I have seen at least three people say we should move on from the lovers because the scum will likely off one of them for us to learn off of. I saw a couple disagree with this and I do too. Scum are not going to go after the claimed lovers when the town is just leaving them alone like that hoping to get info from their night death, they will almost certainly target someone else to prevent as much learning for town as possible. If we leave the lovers today, I believe it is very likely that tomorrow they will all be alive. The town having to be stuck on them for another day is definitely worth it for scum to target someone else. (Math time! Assuming all lovers are town and die together except in the case that ultra is killed) They could try for an extra kill while risking not getting a kill at all as protective roles will probably be all over them, or they could chose someone else and have a 2/(17-4 claims - #scum) so 9ish? chance in finding one of the unclaimed lovers. So if they go that route, they would either get a double kill or a safe kill that doesn't give town much info.

So to answer storr's question from a while back, today I would like us to lynch one of the lovers. My choice right now would be virus. With all the conspiracy theories about why virus can sacrifice himself to save a ultra (just a mason?) it seems likely that it is a bunch of phooey (e.g. they are lying scum lovers), ultra would gain a power from that, or virus would somehow flip town in hiding a scum ultra. All their stories just don't add up for me. Vote virus I know there is a chance that we would lose two townies from this, but I don't think they are and even if they are, we would really just be losing two almost-vanilla's that were tied together anyway.

My thoughts on zivel's cc proving him town
Most of the reasoning for this assumes he only has town knowledge (eg no idea if there are other lovers or not) but if he was scum, is it not possible that he knows about there being more than one pair of lovers? He could be the sk that has been mentioned a couple times or be part of a scum lover pair that was given knowledge of this. It is more safe than you think, because I don't believe he would automatically be lynched even if he were the only cc and we lynched ultra and he flipped lover. As far as him saying things that the other lovers knew, I believe the only thing he said first was that he and his partner were confirmed town, so he knew lovers were of the same alignment. He would know that if he was either an sk or a mafia lover pair. Not saying that I think zivel is scum, but I am less sure of his cc giving him so much clearance.

Feels that a lynch should come from between one of the lover pairs. I didn't disagree at the time. Votes virus over his story not adding up and conspiracy theories but then goes into his own conspiracy theory...Cites why he believes that Zivel's counter claim isn't as fool proof as it seems. See to this point, I have yet to see anyone even attempt to answer adequately why Zivel would be willing to risk his lynch knowing that Ultra and virus likely had secondary powers when he could be lynched if his own power was a weaker claim than the real ones Ultra/Virus would have provided. Also ignores discussions on Pancake, Storr and AoG among others. Would say this is scummish.

Mine is also from a manga, so it does seem suspicious that he appears to be the only one who isn't. However, I hesitate because if his character is also from a manga, and he saw the prior claim was from a manga, it would only make sense for him to try to follow suit? Maybe it really is a poor slip and his actual character was obviously a villain so he felt the need to lie. Though the more I think about it, the more this seems to be correct.
This begins to make me wonder if he is a lover at all, being as since he believes lover to die with him, you would think his lover would be trying to come out and protect/defend him. The main reason I don't believe they would is in case they aren't sure if they die and they want to hide for when/if dd comes up scum.
So I'm not quite ready to switch my vote yet, but I probably will later today.

FP'd by anama
I wondered if that could be the case, but with that inconsistency... Very suspicious

This seems a bit non-committal to me though non-committal isn't exactly in contradiction to his early play in the game (See playing the skeptic comment).

Alright so I had switched my vote to virus (p24)
I had three exams today so I am totally beat, I caught up but didn't really digest anything. So I'll try to have more tomorrow, possibly a vote change because if that VC is close at all then virus isn't getting lynched today.

@mtam, I really have no inclination to just up and sheep you when you have spent the majority of the game skimming and not really contributing, before you suddenly decide it is time for aog to die. Even since then it appears you cannot be bothered to remember what half the posts were about and who is who. WTH?
Also, you'll use your power to kill yourself tonight if dd is the lynch? Are you "Juliet"?

Fp'd by ultra
Well I am, but its okay because I am dumb

States he was busy. Criticizes Mtam and asks if he is Juliet. Heavy sarcasm directed at Ultra. This would turn out to be his last post of day 1, leaving his vote on Virus.

So overall day 1 play: Not too different than what I had expected to find. A lot of stuff I agreed with, a lot of other stuff, not so much and some stuff in between. I started out thinking it looked very town but his play was much weaker as the day drew to a close. It may have been that he was busy as he said but experience tells me that end of day is where you should see people put up a final vote or resupport their case for who they are voting to summarize their thoughts. I don't see WS doing that here. he kept his vote on Virus but said he might change it because of the DD wagon. It bugs me just how much he seemed to skip over during the course of the day. Now it is true that he that he was defending himself for part of this time and he did say he wanted to focus on the lovers but it's kind of one thing to not focus on them and another to skip over and I feel more inclined to excuse the topics he didn't get into while defending himself over those that he didn't get into towards the end of the day. Based on evidence, I would say he was slightly scummy.

Mmk I'm back, sorry for not being able to get back yesterday, but it appears we were both wrong anyway

But before storr changes vote several people are voting the virus lynch: Hotshot53, Storrzerg, dd515087 and Whatsausage joins in later. Hotshots vote was left over from something in the earlier days play.

This is telling, I think this is a key point in the game for me. Whatsausage goes for the virus vote with ideas about alternative win conditions and such. At this point in the game is was very easy for scum to join in on one of the towny lynchs. I am assuming that Ultra is town now as the Virus death without him confirms it to me. He joined in softly on a town lynch that made no sense when it would be a two for one. He promises to come back and switch his vote but never does.

Whatsausage needs to explain his play from late day one.

You are correct, I was the last to switch to virus and didn't change my vote. I never "promised" to change my vote, I just said probably, but I wasn't able to make it back. I am torn as to whether I would have even changed it had I made it back. At that point it was really a pointless vote, but I really didn't see the case on AOG at all. (Even more so today's, even though that one seems to have died right away) I was still suspicious of dd, but his claim could be tested by nearly anyone, so there was no need to lynch him (though his claim isn't automatically alignment indicative)
As for justification for my play, I believe you are looking more towards my virus vote. I stated my reasons for my vote at the time: I didn't believe him town, their stories weren't adding up, I believed a lover lynch was best for town, and I didn't want to lynch ultra because of the chance of him gaining powers. I stand by these reasons (except virus was obviously town now.) Ultra's stories still don't really make sense as has been stated by others (eg him willing to lynch himself to sac virus to prove him town and no other reason. I also believe he had at least an inkling that he would gain a power from virus dying for him) I didn't want to potentially give that power to scum. I am still not 100% on ultra being town because of virus' flip, be it a "tin foil theory" or not. (More on this in a bit.) So that's why I switched to virus, and I didn't see a better choice to change to later. I guess I joined "softly" and yes he flipped town, so I was likely wrong, but I was definitely willing to risk two towns on D1 to try and prevent a scum getting powers (like ultra claims to have gained, 2 forced kills could very easily end up being those two towns.)

FP'd by crasp

As for ultra's claim. 2 kills in one night? This is a little hard to believe. I also have a hard time thinking this is something for a town player. Perhaps I am going too "tinfoil hat" again, but I don't think it would be terribly far off for ultra to have changed alignment with his lover's death. This really fits with getting multiple kills. Clearly they are kills to "avenge" virus, but two kills in one night says more "kill everyone to win" crazy than "grieve by trying to find the killer" town. If that last sentence doesn't make sense, I am trying to say that it seems more likely with two kills in one night that he is now a third party trying to kill everyone than if say he got one kill a night or total and some way to investigate for his lover's killer.

Fp'd by storr

First post of Day 2. Late arriving which supports that he could have indeed been inactive at end of day 1 as an explanation of his play. States that he probably wouldn't have voted AoG because he didn't see the case, consistent with earlier criticism of Mtam's AoG push at the end of D1. Defense of his Virus vote feels a bit iffy. Points out how scummy it was but then says his feelings weren't that strong? Yeah. Goes into a tin foil hat theory about Ultra possibly still being scum. So he doesn't really contradict himself here but I don't agree with all his reasons. The reasons Ultra might still be scum are super tin foil hat really and Mtam wasn't the only one to address AoG's scummy behavior day 1. I'd have been more inclined to fully believe this post if you had stated more on why you feel AoG was town and as I addressed early today it would not surprise me at all if the Ultra might still be scum issue was part of a distraction ploy on the part of some of the scum.

I am not sure how you get this as town. He seems very keen to convince us that he is now clear and claiming that power has just asked for a role block if there is one in the game.

FP Storr.

If he was Anti-town (And does have these powers), he very easily could have not said a thing about it. Then let the craziness ensue tonight. That's how I view it.

The problem I have with this thought is that he has to know this as well, and if there are trackers in the game (I tend to think there is one), he would likely be seen with 2+ kills in a single night. His visit to the deceased can be justified this way. This quickly becomes a WIFOM argument, but perhaps I am just seeing it spit out a scummy ultra because that's what I am putting in.

More of the Ultra could still be scum argument.

He posts a correction saying he meant watchers not trackers. Not worth quoting.

Well I have been chewing on this idea for a while, and I'm looking for input (Note: when I originally came up with it, I forgot that there is a pretty good chance dd's lover would die and that his power may be limited)
The plan (short and blunt): We lynch dd and mtam revives him if he flips town.
The pros:
1. Able to test both dd's and mtam's claims
2. If claims are true:
a. We gain a confirmed town dd, who will be very hard to be night killed
b. Allows mtam to use his power, so he can "gtfo this game" (I think he said something along those lines)
3. If one or both claims are lies:
a. Found a liar and either lynched him or have him set to be lynched/killed

The cons:
1. Mtam may change his mind about reviving dd
2. Dd's lover could die along with him
3. If both are telling the truth, we spend a cycle essentially lynching a town to gain a confirmed town

So the more and more I think about this, the worse the plan is, because in the case of the plan "working" it becomes con #3. I thought I'd put it out there anyway, to see if others think it is worth considering

Switches direction to talk about what we could do with a DD lynch to show Mtam and DD's roles were true. Considers the plan to be bad but wanted to mention it. I am not sure I would have seen #1 as that big of a con. If Mtam changed his mind about reviving DD, that would have been the same thing to me as saying "I am scum and I was lying." It would really become a bad con if it turned out that Mtam was telling the truth and he was just being a stubborn donkey.

At this point, the game starts to turn towards Storr's case on Hotshot.

I'd rather have mtamb bring virus back into this game (even though virus didn't do shit day 1, ) i do think he would have added incentive to try again, and he would be productive.

ultra shoot mtamb (nothing should happen since mtamb should die using his power)

Ultra shooting dd5, again nothing should happen since dd5 will not be around.

in short, even not looking at the flaws that you point out in your plan. i value virus reads over dd5. (specially since dd5 is here now and can give input, while virus is confirmed town and can't give input)

The thing about bringing virus back into the game... Would he get all his powers back? So if he were to die again, would that give ultra another two shots? As much as he says the town will be able to choose his shots and as convinced as some are that ultra is town, I still don't feel terribly comfortable with having someone that has to shoot twice a night. The added killing power can be helpful, but I believe more in "extending the game."

I asked the mod about whether the revival would occur before a kill, and I'm sure you can guess the answer: he didn't really give an answer, saying it would depend. So I don't believe we should risk having ultra shoot mtam, since it could easily end up having him killed.

As for your case on hotshot, I don't see much there, but at least you are trying to make a case when it seems no one else really is (I am guilty of this myself; I don't have much for strong reads atm).

FP'd by AOG and storr

Continues to throw doubt on Ultra. Talks about game mechanics. Confesses to not having any strong reads. Doesn't see much about the Hotshot case but applauds Storr for making a case.

Overall to this point: I am starting to feel more comfortable reading WS as scum. This last post in particular does not have anything really noteworthy to it. Day 2 play in particular is pretty lacking and I stand by my FOS on the people who were casting doubts on Ultra early.

Disappears for a while.

Alright so I have spent a lot of yesterday and this morning finally catching up and should be able to get a post out in ~2 hours from now.
Sorry for the absence, it was a bad week and I figured this would take a lot of time to catch up on after I got a bit behind (it did) and really wasn't in the mood to do it with how the week was going and all. This shouldn't happen again.

One point before my later post, what is the point of these "its obvious, so I'm not going to say it" statements? It doesn't benefit town at all, just delays. It isn't hiding anything from scum if it really is as obvious as you say. So either it isn't obvious and you are wasting everyone's time trying to look for an obvious answer, or it is obvious and there is no reason not to say it and you are wasting everyone's time by making someone else say it or demand it from you. (I don't think he had said it, but I did just do a lot of catching up and COULD have missed it)
So that said, I agree that streaker should state who he blocked, as that would give us a lead. I don't think it is likely that there is only one killing role in this game (even including ultras).

Fp'd by storr

Apologizes for falling behind. Addresses Streaker's comments about it should be obvious and asks him to say who he blocked. Nothing I particularly disagree with here...will see what comes of his later post.

Here goes, though I'm sure I'm due for an epic comeback post given the time I missed, I don't know that this one will be quite that haha.

Taking storr's night knowledge: I think we can believe that storr is a watcher, and that aage and hotshot visited mtam. As far as alignment, I am with the group that believes that virus' death was caused by either a vig or 3rd party kill and therefore a scum kill was somehow stopped. We have streaker saying he blocked ultra, who is accepted as town (100% not "standard scum" as virus flipped town and at least had been the same alignment as ultra last night, although perhaps I am just being paranoid I don't trust ultra) so the scum kill had to have been prevented another way. So that leaves a few options:
1. Scum didn't try to kill/there isn't a "scum" faction - I put these together because they are similar and I believe both to be very unlikely
2. Scum targeted someone other than mtam or ultra and was stopped by either someone who is BP or saved by doc - This is possible, although statistically unlikely (from the roles possibly not existing and unlikely that scum would target the same as a doc)
3. Scum targeted ultra and overlapped with the assumed other killer - Also unlikely. Not sure if this would've caused ultra to die even after virus' revival, but at the very least it seems that scum would've chosen virus over ultra as a target (unless they expected virus to be protected, enter WIFOM) to get two kills

So with three unlikely (contingent upon scum going against logic to screw with us or doc getting a good save) options, I think the fourth option to be most likely:
4. Either hotshot or aage is scum and the other stopped the kill. Originally aage thought couldn't have stopped it, but with further clarification it seems that 1 of his 3 would stop the kill with one other causing all sorts of confusion and the other being a roleblock. So if he is telling the truth it would seem the only possibility is that he acted as a doc and saved mtam from a killer hotshot. If hotshot is telling the truth, it would be very possible for him to have stopped a killer aage. (Both if these are assuming the first statement in this case is true. It is possible they are both telling the truth and aage's role could've done a bunch of things with no effect.)
In conclusion to this: No hard set truths to be found. Probability with some assumed variables shows it most likely that aage was stopped from killing mtam by hotshot, but only because of his convoluted (claimed) role. I don't know that a confusing role is lynch-worthy, so I will have to look back over the cases before deciding, but it seems pretty likely that one of the two is scum. Right now I am in favor of lynching one and if he comes up town having mtam revive him and ultra shoot the other (especially if hotshot flips town, as his power is more useful).

@streaker, your way of going about claiming seemed... off. (IE: When you said what the role was, you immediately followed it up by saying it isn't something you would do as scum) You brought it up with no pressure as a CC to jailkeeper, saying you hadn't seen the two on the same said, but then you really didn't follow up with it at all. Not sure if this was a scum attempt to get a claim off early with no pressure, if you were trying to get the last little bit of traction against hotshot so he could be lynched before the backing off of "it is possible both roles are town", or if you were actually concerned that hotshot couldn't be a town jailkeeper since you're a town roleblocker. It doesn't seem to be the last option because of how quickly (at least it seems to me) you backed off of it.

Your reason for blocking ultra is reasonable as storr says, but it would also be a safe block claim for scum as the watcher has already claimed so there is little chance of being caught that way and that ultra had claimed not to have a night action except for tonight (so there would be no way to disprove your claim)

Spends most of the post establishing how game mechanics might mean that between Aage and Hotshot one of them is likely scum who tried to kill Mtam and that one should be lynched. Now, I am not against using game mechanics but there is no conclusion here about which one he feels is more likely to be scum just stating that one of the two likely are. This throws up a big red flag to me. Spends the last post criticizing Streaker's claim. Has some valid points here.

Overall impression to this point: I am willing to move him into probable scum at this point. Frankly at this point he has made no strong cases for why anyone should be lynched on day 2. The excuse is cited inactivity and lack of scum reads. Possible but it still felt that others who weren't exactly the most active today (myself included) still at least attempted to push at least some cases with a bit more pressure than Whatsausage has done up to this point.

Goes away and pops back up.

Well, well, well. More claims. and mtam wants a massclaim. @this, too soon. Especially because (With the three lover pairs) this game seems to be a little unconventional, a massclaim wouldn't be able to solve anything.

I am still of the mind that one of the lover pairs is scum, and with zivel stating this and pushing dd, I think that shows him(zivel) as town. So with ultra basically confirmed town, I think it is quite likely that the remaining pair is scum. So I will vote dd

I believe the extension was approved? So I should be able to change my vote if anything new comes up

A couple others I see as scum: streaker and aog

Aog: With the whole watcher situation, I believe that storr is a town watcher, and his push on hotshot was justified (because of the thought a kill was stopped and he had two people on one target, decent chance one is scum). I also believe that hotshot is a jailkeeper, town, and stopped a kill. So that leaves aage and aog as potential killers. Of these two I am more inclined to believe aage as town. My only doubts on this is how much it seemed that he and storr appeared to be working together on hotshot followed by storr kinda backing off hotshot when this was pointed out (This becomes a moot point as I believe storr to be town), and aage's ever changing role. So that leaves aog as the killer.

Streaker: As I mentioned before, his CC seemed off, and he admitted it was a bad play. I'm not sure how I feel about admitting a bad play vs defence (which is scummier), but it just doesn't sit right with me.

Out of time for now

FP'd 4x
Storr, how does aog claim make aage more likely?

Don't disagree with him on the mass claim issue. I think it's too early as well. vote on DD added nothing new to the conversation. In fact, it really didn't even address any of the issues other than saying that one of the lovers is likely scum. Finds AoG scummy but doesn't cite any actual behavior. Mentions Streaker's counter claim again as a reason for thinking he was scum. I have already stated I disagree with this.

Here they come, and the only reason so far is a birdy... I figured this would happen soon, with all the people repeating me as possible scum with no reason given. Hear something enough times and it becomes the truth.
So if anyone "pressuring" me would like to talk about why, I'm willing.

Good thinking strike, I would've never considered that, so this more or less clears aog, aage, and hotshot of being killers.

So my targets are down to dd and streaker. Oh wait, mtam has finally claimed to be lovered to dd. So this gives some more credence to dd (at least for now, I'd still like to see mtam use his revival power to prove himself. If he doesn't, I say he and dd are suspicion #1 for tomorrow) so I will unvote

and that just leaves streaker... Probably where my vote will land soon

FP'd by strike

Downplays the wagon. Agrees that my question means that AoG, Aage and Hotshot aren't killers. Narrows it down to DD and Streaker. Unvotes DD as Mtam can prove himself. Here's the thing about this. Your reasoning was that Mtam had been announced as DD's lover and can prove himself but that had already come out and had been stated a few times when you first voted DD today. So either you skimmed past it or something else changed your mind. Says Streaker is his scum candidate but does not vote. Neutral on this post in isolation as it sounds like something that can be townish but would be easy enough to say as mafia as well.

Here they come, and the only reason so far is a birdy... I figured this would happen soon, with all the people repeating me as possible scum with no reason given. Hear something enough times and it becomes the truth.
So if anyone "pressuring" me would like to talk about why, I'm willing.

Good thinking strike, I would've never considered that, so this more or less clears aog, aage, and hotshot of being killers.

So my targets are down to dd and streaker. Oh wait, mtam has finally claimed to be lovered to dd. So this gives some more credence to dd (at least for now, I'd still like to see mtam use his revival power to prove himself. If he doesn't, I say he and dd are suspicion #1 for tomorrow) so I will unvote

and that just leaves streaker... Probably where my vote will land soon

FP'd by strike

you forgot to include my name in can't be a killer...

I had done it in my prior post when I stated that you are almost certainly a watcher, and the context I was using to state that those guys couldn't be the killer didn't actually clear you, so there was no reason to state it there.

i'll throw down some light accusation. Day 1 you pushed ultra then virus. Then stayed on virus.
In particular i don't like why you pushed virus.

So to answer storr's question from a while back, today I would like us to lynch one of the lovers. My choice right now would be virus. With all the conspiracy theories about why virus can sacrifice himself to save a ultra (just a mason?) it seems likely that it is a bunch of phooey (e.g. they are lying scum lovers), ultra would gain a power from that, or virus would somehow flip town in hiding a scum ultra. All their stories just don't add up for me. Vote virus I know there is a chance that we would lose two townies from this, but I don't think they are and even if they are, we would really just be losing two almost-vanilla's that were tied together anyway.

you don't actually call out any of his actions as scummy. in fact just glancing at your posting, i don't think you mention virus actions as scummy ever.

Lack of activity, disagreement on reads, etc etc etc. nothing.

When I pushed my vote on to virus, it was mostly to do with believing ultra to be scum and virus to be as well by default. The reason for voting virus over ultra was that it didn't make any sense to give ultra what he wanted when I didn't believe him to be town, therefore, I would want to lynch his partner to lynch him instead of just lynching him and having him be saved by his partner and possibly gain a power. So virus was more guilty of his lover's crimes than his own. So my reasons for voting virus once again: at the time I believed a lover lynch was in the best interest of the town, I believed ultra was the scummiest (for reasons I've stated before), and I wasn't going to lynch ultra after his and virus's claim of reviver.

Defends himself with no clear contradiction from earlier play. First point, adequate. Second point, My only issue is that he stated earlier that he wasn't that convinced with the scumminess of the situation but otherwise fits with what he has been saying.

@Whatsausage: I sheeped HotShot's vote, but I made a post on Aage before. I also stated I simply forgot to vote in the first post, and was relatively quick to adjust this.

Again, here also, voting me without actually presenting a case. You stated you basicly voted on me for sheeping. And now what are you doing?

Not sure if this is actually supposed to be directed at me, since I don't recall saying anything about your vote on aage. Also, I never voted you.

Highlighted here is a potential mafia team which actually makes quite a bit of sense. Streaker's claim of blocking me is weak as I had claimed no Night action Day One. dd and mtam could be scum lover and reviver (hence why mtam's power is unlimited). Whatsausage is yet to claim (don't yet... no need) but also pushed me for lynch.

Now what do all of these have in common? They were on the initial Ultra wagon and the AoG wagon, with the exception of mtam, who called for an AoG lynch and then everyone took ex post facto evidence without consideration of why he pushed initially. At day end the quadruplet's votes were all on what are now confirmed town by death. None of them made extremely insightful posts.

First paragraph, I guess I can see why you think I'm scummy for voting you, but at that time only you (and virus) (and scum) knew you to be town. But if you want to put scum on everyone who voted for town on D1, you are going to end up lynching mostly town, especially since all the main votes on D1 ended up town.

Second paragraph, I did end up on the original wagon for you, but I never switched to the AoG wagon, so we'll let that be another exception. Again, I did end the day on a confirmed town (virus), but that in itself isn't a scum move, as town vote for other town all the time.

the relationship of whatsausage and ultra.
Spoiler deleted for time constraints, it appears most of the points are brought up again in conclusion
Conclusion. I don't think your reasons of pushing ultra, are that great. Specially the timing of when you vote him. It really speaks more about someone who wants the claim, than someone who finds that person scummy. Earlier in the game, you kept "defending" ultra, or in actually not agreeing with lynching him over his choice of no lynch. Some people even stated "stop defending your scum buddy" I think this is where you started to change. After this point, you start going with the wagon, the wagon is all ready pretty large at this point (you are the 7th person to place a vote on him) Regarding ultras opinions on other people you do not talk about his reads at all, you give no thought or opinion on them. The closest thing you say is in regards to ultra throwing scum on those who called him scum, you don't actually look into the reasons he called some people scum instead i feel you sheep streakers push blanketing ultra reads as all scum.

The timing and the reason do speak more to someone who wanted the claim. Actually, that is why I voted. He had been spinning his way around a softclaim that really didn't turn out to be true. Generally the desired result of D1 (imo) is that the first wagon (which is usually caused by a rather weak case, as that is all that can really be made short of a major mistake) results in a claim, and then that claim is either accepted and everyone moves on to (usually a lynch due to limited time, but sometimes another wagon resulting in a claim) someone else, or the claim is deemed to be worth the risk of lynching. So originally I placed my vote to get a claim, and then I left it on because of what the claim was. As the day went along, he became more scummy in my eyes. So I left my vote on, some reasons were in fact sheeped and others I was too lazy and assumed were implied (stupid thing to do yes). So at the time of my vote, I didn't believe him to be as scummy as I did after his claim and then his and virus's ever changing stories.

No new argument to really address here. Just a defense post. Doesn't contradict himself.

in what way was his soft claim not true?

"You lose more than a vote if I die"
He claimed not to have any power beyond lover, and he didn't believe his lover would die if he did. I am pretty sure at that point he didn't know about virus' power, but even if he did then, all we would lose if he was lynched would be virus' vote. So from what he claims to have known (eg, didn't know he would gain anything from virus' sacrifice) he really didn't count as more than a vote.

This feels a bit nitpicky. He wasn't exactly lying about his softclaim. It just didn't add up to what you were expecting.

Overall D2 play: Seems really scummy. His defenses were decent but there's probably an issue when the most townie thing about a person is that their defense wasn't bad during a day.

So overall feelings towards Whatsausage, after a reread, I am fairly confident in saying that he should be lynched. He has really only pressured one person today and that was someone I have already mentioned would probably be a reasonably safe scum wagon. He has often avoided citing actual reasons to go along with the game mechanics that he cites as reason for suspecting people and his overall play has been lackluster since about mid day 1, ending day 1 on a somewhat iffy stance. I hate to vote someone over something that may be mostly due to inactivity when I am guilty of that myself but I think this is more than just about his inactivity (as I said earlier in the spoilers, unlike most of the inactives who at least tried to put pressure on some of the cases presented today, Whatsausage for a large portion of this day did not even seem to try to actually press anyone.)

It would appear that I won't be the hammer but would put WhatSausage at the top of the voting pile so:

Vote Whatsausage