[Official] Wheel of Time:EotW [8/14] D4:Twisted Pattern

[StorrZerg]

Well, I want more discussion with who visits. I only want 2 people visiting, and i don't want random people to show up.

[Metsfanmax]

You said earlier that you know what item it is.

I knew what the last items are, i don't know what new items could be handed out today.

So you knew yesterday before the items were handed out? If not, how is today different from yesterday? And if it isn't, then what was the point of the earlier comment?

So if you know what it is, how can they lie?

because i could die in the night, thus items would be up for question

And if you had died last night, we also wouldn't know what items/abilities hotshot and madmitch have. Point is, this isn't really related to the main issue, which is why it matters whether two people visit you.

Which means that two people getting an item is irrelevant -- neither knows what the other got. So again, your statement is completely misleading.

I have my full claim you do not.

Yes, but I provided the quote from you saying on D1 than hotshot and mitch don't both know what the other got. The most obvious explanation for this is that you were either lying then or lying now. Since you were caught in a lie, that makes you an automatic lynch candidate. So whether you like it or not, you had better come up with an explanation.

If you aren't lying, then the next most obvious possibility is that somehow if multiple town visit you simultaneously, then they know what each other got. But if mafia and town visit you, they don't know what each other got. And you don't know whether they are the same alignment, and thus whether they know what each other got. It goes without saying that this would be an incredibly strange possible mechanic.

But it also should be obvious that this too leads to interesting conclusions. Neither hotshot nor madmitch provided any indication on D1 that they knew what the other got or even that the other had visited you. If they were both town and did know, hotshot almost certainly would have pointed it out in an effort to clear up the confusion surrounding you and also to confirm a townie. It was only after you pointed out that someone other than hotshot visited you that madmitch admitted to it. So under this admittedly outlandish scenario I'm dreaming of here, that means that at least one of hotshot and madmitch is scum. But you didn't push on either of them. So again you would have to be lying.

Also, you've consistently called what the other person got an item, but Hotshot referred to it on multiple occasions as an ability, which is interesting.

Interchangeable? are they not? He traded for an item / ability, same difference.

They may be interchangeable from the perspective of what the user can do, but is at least some evidence that you are lying or withholding information on what your power does, because if Hotshot got an item in a PM from the mod he wouldn't have called it an ability -- that's not the sort of interchange the mind would normally make.



Notice this Storr comment on N1:

I do suspect someone who is "scared of me" is going to die tonight.

Notice also IB's comment just after the D1 lynch:

Did a simple google. At the end if you look at what they fear...I wonder if that is still who is left.

"They" in this case being the Myrddraal. Now, one of the few people they explicitly fear is Padan Fain, who is a trader and also an evil character. Fits in well with Storr's ability. Now, I confess that I still don't have a good explanation for why Storr would have pushed Streaker. I have some possible explanations though, like the Darkfriends and Shadowspawn or whatever are competing factions. According to the WoT wiki, Trollocs sometimes eat Darkfriends and once threatened Padan Fain with this. (Same page says that Myrddraal are Trolloc offspring.) Or maybe Padan Fain is a third party. But even if I don't understand that, everything else fits to me. The Bayesian argument suggests that Storr is not town.

[StorrZerg]

Holy molley could it be that storr is actually town, and you dont know how to stop tunneling?

I easily could have lynched end over streaker and possibly been in a much better position ffs.


The amount of nit picking and role fishing is funny on your end mets, you have the answers right under your noise and can't logically put it together.


Either way, I did hand out solid items yesterday. So instead of lynching me before day actions are submitted, why don't you fm help me decide which 2 peoshould get the items.

[Metsfanmax]

Something that I now realize is really fascinating: of the characters who are "peddlers," the evil trading guys that Padan Fain belongs to, there is only a single other peddler of note listed on the wiki. And basically every other character that I can see on the merchants page is a total bit character. So essentially the main characters whose flavor would naturally suggest a trading ability are evil.

I bring this up because on D1, literally just before the bit about Storr's vote trading came on, Marashu acknowledges the existence of Padan Fain as a possible scum:

I think this is interesting. I don't know if the mafia would be darkfriends and shadowspawn, or if it would go for more important named villains, like Baalzamon, Aginor, Balthamel, and Padan Fain. Also, possible to have Mordeth as a 3rd party (Fain could also potentially fall into the 3rd party category, but I feel like that would be in later books more than EotW).

But after it comes out that Storr is the vote trader, we don't see a single mention from him of the possibility that Storr is either Mordeth or Fain. Why wouldn't Marashu even suggest the possibility, given that he's clearly the one who knows the most about the flavor? Very intriguing.

[StorrZerg]

@storr I'll agree on video mafia / allstars set up its good but those are open setups this is not.

Internet has been funny grabbing wifi wherever I can. Times are tough when you have to play smite in the library.

yeah or your being lazy. which you are more likely being lazy. I mean your not being lazy in scummy way, just lazy in the sense you couldn't be bothered to contribute which is annoying.


FANTASTIC FIND METS< LETS LYNCH HIM

[Marashu]

But after it comes out that Storr is the vote trader, we don't see a single mention from him of the possibility that Storr is either Mordeth or Fain. Why wouldn't Marashu even suggest the possibility, given that he's clearly the one who knows the most about the flavor? Very intriguing.

My reasoning is that it makes more sense to me that Fain would be some sort of mafia rolecop. He mainly uses being a merchant as a front for travelling, while searching for the Dragon Reborn. I didn't really consider that he would have non-tracking day actions or a passive ability that involves trading, even though he is a trader by profession in EotW. I was also feeling, from some of the things Storr said beforehand, that he was a completely different character. However, I have a hard time believing that character would not have any night actions, so I'm becoming more confident that I misread that role for him (which means I also misread mtam's role). The really telling thing for me, right now, would be what it is that Storr gave to HS and mitch yesterday - if the powers are still in play, then maybe just the items.

[Iron Butterfly]

@storr I'll agree on video mafia / allstars set up its good but those are open setups this is not.

Internet has been funny grabbing wifi wherever I can. Times are tough when you have to play smite in the library.

yeah or your being lazy. which you are more likely being lazy. I mean your not being lazy in scummy way, just lazy in the sense you couldn't be bothered to contribute which is annoying.


FANTASTIC FIND METS< LETS LYNCH HIM

Vote Storr

Funny for all the pomp and grandeur about you helping to lynch Mafia you not once mention about third party/ Cult. I have stated several times what has happened. All you are concerned about is you getting your votes. You have been caught in several consistencies about knowing about the abilities given out. You knew. Now you do not. Mets has made a powerful argument and all you can do is say lynch Mets.

Your priority is to control votes. What makes what you hand out any better then what Town offers?

Meanwhile we have not heard what Mitch and Hotshot did with their ability.If they did I missed it.

[Iron Butterfly]

Holy molley could it be that storr is actually town, and you dont know how to stop tunneling?

I easily could have lynched end over streaker and possibly been in a much better position ffs.


The amount of nit picking and role fishing is funny on your end mets, you have the answers right under your noise and can't logically put it together.


Either way, I did hand out solid items yesterday. So instead of lynching me before day actions are submitted, why don't you fm help me decide which 2 peoshould get the items.

First you are stating that YOU lynched Streaker but could easily have lynched End instead. Arrogance or a slip?

Second how exactly would you be in a better position by lynching End, who was Town when we lynched Mafia?????

Third Mets is not rolefishing...he is calling you out on your inconsistencies and f*ck ups.

Again how could we be in a better position if we lynched End and had extra mafia floating around?

[WingCmdr Ginkapo]

Spoiler

So votes and comments on Streaker.
(ib votes him first but clearly joke vote no credit)

IB pushes streaker for real. Light scum read because he is more interested in the mechanics of my role (i think ill be needing to move ib to null area i think and not scummy, didn't realize he was vocal against streaker early like this, as well as he leaves his vote here from pretty early on till the end. So thats good, still dont get a mega town vibe from him like i do from dd5)

2nd person vocal about Streaker is dd5. DD5 case is more in depth, and less of a whim i like this. He gains tons of town cred for this. (As well for following up his case questioning streaker more, questioning others about streakers behavior. )

virus opinion

dd just came with 1 massive post and streaker posts more often but their fight distracts me from forming an opinion at the moment.

Comment seems strange, unwilling to give an opinion. Basically says he is confused. I dont think streaker/dd5 really had a fight either. I would understand this statement regarding mets vs me. Since that absolutely was a blood bath.

Now the lynch starts. I make my small case on Streaker, which follows quickly by dd5 who has kept his pressure on streaker the whole time.
(and honestly, if there is someone more confirmed town than me, its dd5)

Hotshot also chimes in as i push my case.

Streaker was looking suspicious to me also, for pretty much those reasons. He'd be my second choice behind endgame.

WHile the streaker case is building, we have endgame push another direction

Looks like storr decided streaker so i imagine thats who it will be,but id rather tal to see if his claim makes sense as someone who cannot make day visits or if scum do not have day visits. His claim could at least provide game mechanics info.

seems kinda awkward in that he knows the lynch will be streaker, yet still fishing for information rather than discussing reads.

Hotshot is the 4th person to move to streaker.
THen mad mitch Nothing much to note from these votes imo.

Mets is the 5th actual vote since i didnt place mitch earlier, He is a more interesting vote. Tensions have been high prior to his vote switch, yet the motivation imo is clear, he wants the claim. Additionally, i don't fault him for believing the claim from streaker when he did claim, he didn't have a strong read on streaker either way, and it lines up with his play. He expected town flip cause generally thats what happens. If he is mafia in this spot, he tries to gain some town cred imo, he doesn't do what he did because it just looks terrible. And when your mafia, thats something you can't shake, how do i look when i do what i do.


Also of note, end now says he is willing to hammer streaker, before streaker had claimed. ITs good mitch vote was delayed, or we could have had no information about mafia fake claims

Wing being cautious about streaker, always reads him scummy and hasn't seen streaker play mafia yet. I think his drastic change in attitude more than makes up for his cautious stance of streaker during his claim time. What ever he has to say, will be explained latter, and it should make sense. If its something very silly, that wont match up with his attitude with how he left day 1, then id be worried.

I Don't feel good about masrashu's timing when attacking Streakers claim.
1. wing all ready did, and was very forceful about it.
2. If mars is scum, he surly knows he can't save streaker, so he has to say the claim is fake as well.
3. most of the comments are here or there, Overall its nice and helps support wing.
4, lack of wanting to lynch streaker before his claim, or meaningful comments while a lynch was building regarding streaker.



With that I think the new scum list im looking into would be
Virus
Mars
End
Got Tonk

null would be
madmitch
hotshot
IB
Talapus

Town being
dd5
mtamb
wing
Storr
Mets

Storr - I found this post confusing. Who are the people who did not push/vote/accuse Streaker at all?

[WingCmdr Ginkapo]

GET TONKAED, time to get your thoughts out there.

I'm slightly confused by the idea of Storr claiming no night action. I may be out of my flavour depth now, but I thought his character was quite powerful, which no night action would suggest otherwise. I may be completely wrong on which character he is too though.

[StorrZerg]

ib, why dont you try reading my play, rather than trying to analyze my role. No seriously, because your getting all wrapped up in crap.

I haven't fully claimed, so inconsistencies can be claimed. Criticizing me on them because i haven't fully claimed is dumb. I dont know which items i will hand out today, I will know once people visit me. You wont lynch me before day actions, because everyone has one so we should use them. SO while you want my head and thats great, o actually your not in the confirmed town so i guess i dont care what you think about who visits me.

Again how could we be in a better position if we lynched End and had extra mafia floating around?

I was referring specifically about myself, since after all the information i volunteered, and how much i was pushing on streaker, you can come to the conclusion that my actions have been scummy. Please point to me a game when i was mafia and claimed anything day one. thanks.

[StorrZerg]

ffs. I handed out a medic save and a commuter item. They are both close in ideas of what they do. I imagine next item batch will be grouped as well. This is why its likely a save or block could have happened. since what ever the game started with got an additional 2 protective actions.

o.... this is awkward. a 3rd person visited me, I dont know who.

[WingCmdr Ginkapo]

Can players use your item AND perform their usual role? If not then I can imagine there are a few town who wouldnt want to trade.

[StorrZerg]

@wing, Virus. did not give an opinion

Mars, ignored streaker all game, wasn't until after his claim, and after you called his claim out that he had something to say about him.
Says he can see the case on streaker, but doesn't actually talk about the case. keeps trying to redirect to pressure mets.

Spoiler

@Wing I think one of the votes on Streaker is a vote that madmitch gave to Storr that he asked to put on Streaker. I am worried about how fast they're going on Streaker, which is why I thought that mets might be a better target.

Unvote - I still think Mets is our best vote, but right now I would be willing to vote Streaker or Tal. I could probably be talked into End, but most of my reads on him right now aren't alignment indicative.

And with all this constant deflection of streaker to mets, whats this mets case like?

Did anyone visit tal?

I did. We had a pleasant chat, and that's it.

I don't feel like I need a claim from Storr or mitch D1. Looking at the arguments about Storr, I feel like dd raised some really good points, but I also feel like mets' points were off, somehow. And the vote post - Storr's use of the votes is, I think, responsible. He still has his own vote, which he is using, and at this point all this discussion has him under such strong scrutiny regarding the votes that it would be difficult for him to pull one over on 13 other people. Right now, my big concern is that we've been focusing on Storr too much these past several pages. I might need to re-read the whole exchange from when HS announced he lost his vote. For now, Vote: Mets

Seems almost like a whim.

Talapus, did someone visit you, and you guys had a private chat? Or was that someone else or no one

According to another player in this game they came and had a pleasant chat with me. I got zero confirmation on that though so no idea. But that fact and the fact the person I tried to visit wasn't in their location makes me assume I never visited anyone or never actually left. I just really don't know.

Well, if you're saying that you and Marashu never spoke to each other outside of this thread, then that answers my question. It still leaves the question of what Marashu was referring to when he said that. A roleblock would be a logical explanation. But whatever the case, why would Marashu admit to having visited you but then be cryptic about what the effect was? What does that gain him or us? I have to say it doesn't seem very scummy to be that open about it, but at the same time I don't understand why he claims to not know whether the results of his action were secret.

The result from my visit was that I had "a pleasant chat" but that otherwise nothing happened. I don't think that it had any game effects, and it does sound like Tal wasn't roleblocked after all (I'm surprised that Tal were given a name, though.)

@Tal/IB could you give me why you think End is scum? So far all I'm getting from the case on him is that all his posts are about figuring out mechanics, and that he's pushing really hard on the fact that Tal couldn't visit someone.

Responds to mets, has no follow up with his case, almost as if he has forgotten it. This wouldn't be that strange, but the deal is, he has largely avoided him. He hasn't actually given a case, or cause for reason to want to vote mets, Thus i suspect with my great volumes of arguing with mets, he suspected i was going to vote mets out of spite. Hence, why he was trying to get on the wagon early, since he figured id be able to push it over.

. I still have a weird feeling about mets, but that might just be part of me wanting to be stubborn. I might need to go back and re-evaluate him.

Last point about him on day 1. Thing is, no one can still comment about his case, because the closest he has come to telling us the case, is its weird.

Got tonked is on there,

What is scummy about pushing Mitch to a claim?

Also, just for clarification, Storr, do you know what people get for visiting you?

Pushing a lynch and claim aren't the same of course.

Having said that since it is getting closer to deadline i am guessing, pushing mitch a claim is kind of still easy lynch pushing because lets face it, if mitch claims d1, it is just as likely people are going to oh ok, and lynch him anyway.

Only thing he had to say on the matter, but i do like how he answered this question.


Talapus, also has limited to no opinion on streaker. He goes to push endgame instead. (why? because endgame didn't believe me, and wanted to push talapus, so he counter pushes)

[StorrZerg]

Can players use your item AND perform their usual role? If not then I can imagine there are a few town who wouldnt want to trade.

No idea. I imagine they can, unless it conflicts. Ill follow up on this when i get a response.
Wing who do you suggest gets an item today? Do you agree with limiting who comes and visits me?

[WingCmdr Ginkapo]

I dont think you have any control over who visits you, and if strong power roles wouldnt benefit from the trade, then I wouldnt advise forcing the issue as you will just out the strongest town roles.

I agree with continuing to keep note of who visits you, because we can now question Madmitch and Hotshot on how they played their item. It doesnt reveal anything about their role so no harm can come from revealing it, only their thought processes.

[StorrZerg]

while i dont have any direct control, town as a collective can mandate who visits me. Do you not agree with this>>?

Even if item can conflict with a role, its still a choice that can be made, and gives more flexibility.

[WingCmdr Ginkapo]

You've already confirmed that you wont necessarily know the name of those who visit you. So how do you intend for town to mandate anything?

[StorrZerg]

This "balance not included " MAFIA all over again.

[StorrZerg]

You've already confirmed that you wont necessarily know the name of those who visit you. So how do you intend for town to mandate anything?

1. Hard to hide no vote.....

[WingCmdr Ginkapo]

This "balance not included " MAFIA all over again.

Please explain

[WingCmdr Ginkapo]

You've already confirmed that you wont necessarily know the name of those who visit you. So how do you intend for town to mandate anything?

1. Hard to hide no vote.....

Pretty sure mafia would just want to have a look to see what the item is today rather than actually trade...

[StorrZerg]

@ib, mets, wing what is my end game with my current pla

@wing. What makes you think they have knowledge of what I give with out accepting a trade?

[WingCmdr Ginkapo]

I'm assuming the trade is explicit when they are asked if they would like to do it. Its an assumption, I dont know. Hotshot and Madmitch can shed light on it.

Your Endgame is to get to a point when you control the majority of the votes in the game.

[Metsfanmax]

@wing. What makes you think they have knowledge of what I give with out accepting a trade?

This was already suggested on D1.

i reason I was late in claiming is because I was not that sure what I was trading for so I asked the host and recieved the answer that I liked and trade it was also pro town

@ Talapus you said you had a nice little chat ,maybe your visit vwas different than mine, no chat ,just quick q& a trade yes or no ,it took me alittle longer to post answer because I checked with catergary roles to get more info on the trade offered.

So this makes it clear that madmitch is (probably) the one who got the commuter ability and most likely needed to research exactly what that was. mitch also had said:

I could of refused the offer but it was in my mind a good deal that would benefit myself and town 100 % @ streaker I am not sitting behind a soft claim

He could only have known it was a good idea if he knew what he was going to get.

You get the idea.