WoT:Mem of Light An Ending

[WingCmdr Ginkapo]

Lol. Just lol

There it is, in the quote bellow, Wing was a busy little persona-crafter in the last Wheel game.

I spent longer googling Wheel of time in the last game than I spent in the mafia forums to be able to craft myself a fairly non commital persona that could have been multiple characters to mitigate whatever snippets of information Rish had given individual players (Such as IB following the four women...).

Actually no, he was given fake claims by Rish:

LOL. Mandy, read the s on claims, aka multiple.

This should be interesting to all of you who are attacking me for being unsure if Dark or Light is Town in the beggining - Wing was sure.

He was 100% commited to fight against Darkness.

Last game I was never really sure whether me and Streaker were mafia or a third party, didnt help that players kept dying without me killing them cause of Endgame vigging.

Mandy, I didnt know that dark was town D1. Previous experience meant I didnt expect Rish to tell me in my pm explicitly, so the lack of the word meant nothing. I assumed that I was scum and played appropriately. Note that Doom labelled me light, if light was town that would have been great scum play. Sure it was aggressive, but I fooled multiple people D1.

[WingCmdr Ginkapo]

Mitch, why does newguy have you visiting gregwolf?

I have remembered when Storr last played like this, HP mafia.

[Metsfanmax]

@ The new guy. a big FOS for skimming, it was Doom not gregwolf, and for my day action you should be able to figure that out.

I know you said you targeted doom. I am saying I also know, you actually targeted gregwolf. And I have done the calculating, and have come to the conclusion that either you are lying about who you visited, or there are two busdrivers who targeted gregwolf as one of their two picks for Night 1, in an at the time 19 player game. I find those odds very unfavorable for you, and so am going with the former until proven wrong.

Why are two busdrivers required? Wouldn't it be sufficient for someone to have bussed gregwolf and Doom, for mitch to be telling the truth?

That's half of it. The other half has to do with how my night action turned out. In order to explain the mechanics, it would pretty much out my role. I wanted to see how Mitch and everyone else responded before I had to do that. Would rather not altogether, but I'm willing if it might prove useful. Otherwise I will leave it at the two explanations: He's lying, or there are two busdrivers that both target gregwolf as one of their two swap candidates. I find it difficult to believe that both would have targeted gregwolf in what was at the time a 19 player game.

Suppose we accept your statement, that in order for mitch to be telling the truth, two different busdrivers had to target him. We can probably all agree that having two busdrivers in a game is rare enough, let alone them happening to target the same person. Yet without knowing more about your role (and I am not asking you to give us more information on it), I cannot be certain that your own results were not interfered with in some way, so the two busdriver theory is not guaranteed even if I completely trusted you (unless you can say for sure that your results are accurate).

Anyway, we must also look at the other side of the argument. What does mitch gain by lying so blatantly and unprovoked about his target? I don't see any reason for him to have done so. I'm willing to accept unlikely scenarios as having occurred, if the alternative is not any more palatable.

[new guy1]

I know for sure that my action was tampered with, and I went somewhere I didn't plan. Mitch is saying he went to DY. I went somewhere else, and ended up at the same place as Mitch, meaning that either he targeted the same person I went to (he's lying) or he targeted DY and also got bussed (two busdrivers would have to be there, because I was already bussed). The mutual target of the busses being greg.

[BuJaber]

I know for sure that my action was tampered with, and I went somewhere I didn't plan. Mitch is saying he went to DY. I went somewhere else, and ended up at the same place as Mitch, meaning that either he targeted the same person I went to (he's lying) or he targeted DY and also got bussed (two busdrivers would have to be there, because I was already bussed). The mutual target of the busses being greg.

Okay mitch... what do you say to this? We have to believe one of you, and I already have you labelled as scum, in my eyes you have to work much harder than new guy.

Greg: Yeah I changed the order of the FP's... Both of their posts came up together when I tried to post. So because mandy's post negates the stuff I was saying to him, I put it up there next to it. Sorry for the confusion. Do you have anything you want to share about your night action? like new guy said, if you tell us you got roleblocked it pretty much confirms new guy's claim.

[DoomYoshi]

unvote vote madmitch

[madmitch]

I have no ideal what is going on, My ability can remove 1 persons action at night, REMOVE not busdrive or switch just remove, I chose Doom no one else, either something else happened or the new guy is lying, the only thing I can do is tell you my day ability which is double voting. I placed both on Manny and when the vote count comes out you should finally believe me.

[Marashu]

I think right now, of those that currently have steam, the only case I can really get behind is mitch. To me, aage and doom seem town. mandy's not really giving me a town feel or a scum feel, that much hasn't changed. His case on Wing/mitch is interesting, and I would rather test it by lynching mitch over lynching Wing. And as I said, I feel like he caught on to dark=town a little too quickly.
Vote madmitch

@aage, earlier in the series, M'Hael is a title that Mazrim Taim gives to himself. In the prologue of a Memory of Light, the Great Lord appoints Taim as one of the Chosen, with the new name M'Hael. Graendal stops being Graendal in Tower of Midnight - she fails repeatedly, and is given a new name and a new body after being punished by the Great Lord's right hand, Shadar Haran, so Graendal being in a Memory of Light game is strange.

@mitch, who was your second vote on at the end of D1?

[madmitch]

@ Marashu I did not vote for anyone.

[madmitch]

@ Marashu I also noticed that Graendal no longer exists in this book but is now an old hag named Hessalam. This is why I voted for Mandy.

[Ragian]

Mitch, why does newguy have you visiting gregwolf?

I have remembered when Storr last played like this, HP mafia.

He was much more vocal in that game as I recall it.

I know for sure that my action was tampered with, and I went somewhere I didn't plan. Mitch is saying he went to DY. I went somewhere else, and ended up at the same place as Mitch, meaning that either he targeted the same person I went to (he's lying) or he targeted DY and also got bussed (two busdrivers would have to be there, because I was already bussed). The mutual target of the busses being greg.

So you visited X and mitch visited X. X is not doom. Therefore mitch was either bussed or is lying, right? And newguy says that he was bussed? So for mitch to be bussed requires two bussing abilities. That's unlikely. Or greg and/or newguy is/are lying. Or we have a role that receives all actions or redirects all actions. I forget if such a PR exists. I'm still not comfortable lynching mitch before this is cleared up. I know too much information plays into scum hands, but we're about to lynch an alleged roleblocker/doublevoter. Perhaps it's not too unjust to learn whom newguy visited?

@mitch, doublevoting and blocking don't indicate town as such. They're just powers that any player on either side of the pond can have.

[aage]

@ The new guy. a big FOS for skimming, it was Doom not gregwolf, and for my day action you should be able to figure that out.

I know you said you targeted doom. I am saying I also know, you actually targeted gregwolf. And I have done the calculating, and have come to the conclusion that either you are lying about who you visited, or there are two busdrivers who targeted gregwolf as one of their two picks for Night 1, in an at the time 19 player game. I find those odds very unfavorable for you, and so am going with the former until proven wrong.

Hmm.
I'm seeing a scenario where Greg is a "magnet", but somehow didn't attract the night kills.
I'd love to know how you knew you were redirected to Gregwolf (because Rish told you or because that is the nature of your role) but I don't think it's relevant to today's lynch. Mitch claiming roleblock + double vote while claiming the wrong target damns him enough to warrant a lynch. At this point I'll vote Mitch, I don't think any more questions will help us.

[aage]

I think right now, of those that currently have steam, the only case I can really get behind is mitch. To me, aage and doom seem town. mandy's not really giving me a town feel or a scum feel, that much hasn't changed. His case on Wing/mitch is interesting, and I would rather test it by lynching mitch over lynching Wing. And as I said, I feel like he caught on to dark=town a little too quickly.
Vote madmitch

@aage, earlier in the series, M'Hael is a title that Mazrim Taim gives to himself. In the prologue of a Memory of Light, the Great Lord appoints Taim as one of the Chosen, with the new name M'Hael. Graendal stops being Graendal in Tower of Midnight - she fails repeatedly, and is given a new name and a new body after being punished by the Great Lord's right hand, Shadar Haran, so Graendal being in a Memory of Light game is strange.

That's incredibly interesting. Good call, this may become very important once we see one of them flip.

[madmitch]

@ Ragain I understand what you are saying but I am trying to prove to all that I have not lied about who I am and what I can do. Not once have I even strayed slightly from what I said. Once the votes are posted and everyone sees that I am telling the truth maybe we can go after the real scum, if every still believes I am scum then that's it for me, there is nothing else I can say or do, all I know is that I am who I say I am.

[Metsfanmax]

I'd love to know how you knew you were redirected to Gregwolf (because Rish told you or because that is the nature of your role) but I don't think it's relevant to today's lynch. Mitch claiming roleblock + double vote while claiming the wrong target damns him enough to warrant a lynch. At this point I'll vote Mitch, I don't think any more questions will help us.

And the votes continue to pile on without anyone offering a plausible reason for why mitch would lie so baldly after like one vote placed on him. With that being said, I think there is a reasonable chance mitch is scum. Something about his posts just seem off to me, saying things like "TO ALL THE DARK , WHO DO YOU WANT GONE ?" And roleblocker/double voter does sound like a scum role pairing. Still, the case has not really been made, and we have so little information about the roles out there that I don't know whether to trust new guy. I'm not going to vote on this wagon, I'd much rather target someone who's lying low and force them to participate, but it looks like that's becoming an irrelevant opinion on this day. Which is unfortunate, because even though it would be nice to resolve this, I think there's more important things to do.

[Ragian]

I'm going with my gut. vote Mandy

[aage]

I'd love to know how you knew you were redirected to Gregwolf (because Rish told you or because that is the nature of your role) but I don't think it's relevant to today's lynch. Mitch claiming roleblock + double vote while claiming the wrong target damns him enough to warrant a lynch. At this point I'll vote Mitch, I don't think any more questions will help us.

And the votes continue to pile on without anyone offering a plausible reason for why mitch would lie so baldly after like one vote placed on him. With that being said, I think there is a reasonable chance mitch is scum. Something about his posts just seem off to me, saying things like "TO ALL THE DARK , WHO DO YOU WANT GONE ?" And roleblocker/double voter does sound like a scum role pairing. Still, the case has not really been made, and we have so little information about the roles out there that I don't know whether to trust new guy. I'm not going to vote on this wagon, I'd much rather target someone who's lying low and force them to participate, but it looks like that's becoming an irrelevant opinion on this day. Which is unfortunate, because even though it would be nice to resolve this, I think there's more important things to do.

Someone mentioned the HP game earlier. I had the pleasure of being scum alongside Mitch, his first order of business that game was to soft-claim and then hard-claim a prominent town role without being pressured. That fits his profile for this game almost perfectly. The most important difference is, he claimed who he targeted with his night action and we have several players either refusing to confirm or outright contradicting his claim.


Besides, the main plausible reason why people would lie baldly is because they are scum.

[StorrZerg]

There a recent vote count? And when does day end.

[Metsfanmax]

Someone mentioned the HP game earlier. I had the pleasure of being scum alongside Mitch, his first order of business that game was to soft-claim and then hard-claim a prominent town role without being pressured. That fits his profile for this game almost perfectly.

I've played in many games with mitch. That fits his profile for every game perfectly. He always softclaims a role very early on, whether or not he's town.

The most important difference is, he claimed who he targeted with his night action and we have several players either refusing to confirm

Refusal to confirm provides zero evidence either way. That's kind of the point.

or outright contradicting his claim.

We have one player, not several, not strictly contradicting his claim but claiming that it would require an unlikely combination of events.

Besides, the main plausible reason why people would lie baldly is because they are scum.

Nice bit of circular reasoning. "How do I know he's scum? Because he lied about who he is roleblocking. Why would he lie about who he is roleblocking? Because he's scum, of course!"

[TimWoodbury]

I'm seeing a scenario where Greg is a "magnet", but somehow didn't attract the night kills.
I'd love to know how you knew you were redirected to Gregwolf (because Rish told you or because that is the nature of your role) but I don't think it's relevant to today's lynch. Mitch claiming roleblock + double vote while claiming the wrong target damns him enough to warrant a lynch. At this point I'll vote Mitch, I don't think any more questions will help us.

this is starting to look like a likley situation seems as i also ended up at greg(rish told me) so how do you know of this magnet?? is it something of your own doing aage?

[TimWoodbury]

with me and newguy both ending up at the incorrect target happens to be the same person im willing to guess that everyone ended up at the same person so if mitch is claiming he ended at dy and everyone else conveniently ended with greg i feel mitch is lying why hes lying ive not a clue vote mitch. between the lying and dy refusing to say if his action happened i think both mitch and dy are light pairs. add to it that dy from d1 knew that dark was good and light was bad remember his list of reads from d1 it adds to them both being light

[sam_levi_11]

The chance of their being two bus roles in this game are pretty slim, but we have already found out that this is an unusual set up. That said, I think we need to start making a decision and whilst I am incredibly suspicious of Mandy, and would like to go after Tolke purely for being so absent, I'm going to unvote vote mitch. He's seemed scummy for a long time now and has seemingly lied his way out of it on numerous occasions. The main reasons someone would ever lie this badly is because they are scum.

[Ragian]

with me and newguy both ending up at the incorrect target happens to be the same person im willing to guess that everyone ended up at the same person so if mitch is claiming he ended at dy and everyone else conveniently ended with greg i feel mitch is lying why hes lying ive not a clue vote mitch. between the lying and dy refusing to say if his action happened i think both mitch and dy are light pairs. add to it that dy from d1 knew that dark was good and light was bad remember his list of reads from d1 it adds to them both being light

He never said that, though. He said he blocked DY, he never said that he knows that DY was blocked. Why else would he ask DY flat out? This doesn't make any sense in my opinion. FOS.

This vote and sams vote stand out to me.

[StorrZerg]

Bunch of incomplete information that really isn't relevant.
Zzz.. why is it when I push for mass claims I never get the results I want. And when I'm not pushing for one, half the people are claiming willingly.

[new guy1]

with me and newguy both ending up at the incorrect target happens to be the same person im willing to guess that everyone ended up at the same person so if mitch is claiming he ended at dy and everyone else conveniently ended with greg i feel mitch is lying why hes lying ive not a clue vote mitch. between the lying and dy refusing to say if his action happened i think both mitch and dy are light pairs. add to it that dy from d1 knew that dark was good and light was bad remember his list of reads from d1 it adds to them both being light

Ragian expressed my thought on this, he said multiple times that he didn't know if it ended up there. Hence my pressure on DY, seeing if he was a scum mate that was going to vouch and get them both stuck in a trap. Tim, are you saying that you meant to go to greg, or that you too were redirected? Because if that's the case, there were 3 switches.

I targeted aage, went to greg
I was notified that I ended up targeting greg - 1 bus
Mitch said he went to DY but ended up at greg - 2 bus

If you too are saying that you didn't end up where you wanted to go, then we have a role that's doing several changes, which might make mitch's claim a little more viable. However, if you (Tim) were notified of the switch, as I was, then Mitch is possibly still lying, since he outright admitted he had no notification of where he ended up, and so would be the odd one out.

FP