Jenos Ridan wrote: However, it seems only Jay is being labeled a homophobe. Isn't being called such just as hateful as the supposed hate he has for homosexuals? How dare any of the stone-throwers here call him hateful when you're going most of the hating. So he thinks it is a sin. If you trully believe the there is no God, then why do you care what he thinks? Honestly, why? It shouldn't matter to you so much.
I dont necesarily disagree with what you have said. However, as luns would put it, (and probably correctly again) jay and others who hold the view that homosexuality is a sin, and is therefore apart from what they concieve to be right morality, take some of the flack for other people who many have expeirenced throughout their life expeirences. For what its worth, i dont know how jay would act in the presents of a gay person. But i can comment a little bit about why such stances are possibly homophobic, and why believe that homosexuality is a sin should be seen as problematic.
We simply dont live in our own neat cookie cutter worlds. Chances are at somepoint those with anti-gay views are going to come into contact with people who are gay. Now its hard to believe that over a long enough period of time, that certain people would not act inappropriately and harass they people they disagreed with. Now this may be right within their own belief system, as if it is possible some groups will try to convert the sinner, but its becoming increasingly less ok in the general society. And as views evolve in society, those with views seen as retroactive (as i believe those who dont believe homosexuality is a sin, would see people that do as) then they must be prepared for some kind of backlash. something perhaps of the notion for each action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
Is this type of mentality best for human interaction...no of course it isnt. One would hope that anyone (christian or not) could learn a bit from the notion of turning the other cheek. However both sides of the issue can at times take some fairly personally invested stances that are hurtful. Perhaps the bits of backlash jay and others get is simply teh general group trying to return to some bit of balance. and most likely this is what occurs in the general society at large. Anti-gay views arent popular right now, and those who have them should probably expect to find that others feel their views must be counteracted, and counteracted strongly. At least thats what i would assume is often going to be the case.
Example of me being near a gay person: I was working in Cali a number of months back and one of my co-workers was gay. On a moral level it bothered me, but I minded my tongue on the issue. He knew I saw things differently but it didn't offend him at all.
A christian can be around sinners without screaming at them. That is were 'turning the other cheek' comes into play.
"There is only one road to peace, and that is to conquer"-Hunter Clark
"Give a man a fire and he will be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life"- Something Hunter would say
debra79 wrote:Ok, as for the homophobic gay jay, what ever happened to preaching about acceptance of all God's children?
"Love the sinner (in a platonic, 'peace and good will towards all mankind' sort of way), but hate the sin". Any church worth being in existance will send the same message. And those that don't, can hardly claim to be christians. Hatred of your fellows is as un-Godly as any other sin, no matter what they did wrong.
However, it seems only Jay is being labeled a homophobe. Isn't being called such just as hateful as the supposed hate he has for homosexuals? How dare any of the stone-throwers here call him hateful when you're going most of the hating. So he thinks it is a sin. If you trully believe the there is no God, then why do you care what he thinks? Honestly, why? It shouldn't matter to you so much.
the fact that matters is that jay is being a thick loser. Just citing some ancient book is not an argument and gets old and very annoying really quickly.
As a christian, I would argue that the Bible is the only platform we 'Jesus Freaks' can argue from. But still, if our views are so backwards, then leave us there. We're not interested in living the way this world wishes to go and that is that. It shouldn't be such a big patch of skin off of your collective noses.
again, although i know you dont mean to stretch the analogy this far....how do you respond to the notion then....well why dont christians actually seperate themselves from the world. You could of course respond that you are supposed to be in the world but not part of it, but then of course one might respond that you cant have your cake and eat it too.
Just playing a bit of the devils advocate.
We, as christians, are called to be in God's Kingdom on Earth (Ie: the church as written in scripture). We are therefore only dwelling in the world but are set apart from it.
And I'll confess, sometimes I've played devils advocate before. Even saw the film .
"There is only one road to peace, and that is to conquer"-Hunter Clark
"Give a man a fire and he will be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life"- Something Hunter would say
Jenos Ridan wrote: However, it seems only Jay is being labeled a homophobe. Isn't being called such just as hateful as the supposed hate he has for homosexuals? How dare any of the stone-throwers here call him hateful when you're going most of the hating. So he thinks it is a sin. If you trully believe the there is no God, then why do you care what he thinks? Honestly, why? It shouldn't matter to you so much.
I dont necesarily disagree with what you have said. However, as luns would put it, (and probably correctly again) jay and others who hold the view that homosexuality is a sin, and is therefore apart from what they concieve to be right morality, take some of the flack for other people who many have expeirenced throughout their life expeirences. For what its worth, i dont know how jay would act in the presents of a gay person. But i can comment a little bit about why such stances are possibly homophobic, and why believe that homosexuality is a sin should be seen as problematic.
We simply dont live in our own neat cookie cutter worlds. Chances are at somepoint those with anti-gay views are going to come into contact with people who are gay. Now its hard to believe that over a long enough period of time, that certain people would not act inappropriately and harass they people they disagreed with. Now this may be right within their own belief system, as if it is possible some groups will try to convert the sinner, but its becoming increasingly less ok in the general society. And as views evolve in society, those with views seen as retroactive (as i believe those who dont believe homosexuality is a sin, would see people that do as) then they must be prepared for some kind of backlash. something perhaps of the notion for each action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
Is this type of mentality best for human interaction...no of course it isnt. One would hope that anyone (christian or not) could learn a bit from the notion of turning the other cheek. However both sides of the issue can at times take some fairly personally invested stances that are hurtful. Perhaps the bits of backlash jay and others get is simply teh general group trying to return to some bit of balance. and most likely this is what occurs in the general society at large. Anti-gay views arent popular right now, and those who have them should probably expect to find that others feel their views must be counteracted, and counteracted strongly. At least thats what i would assume is often going to be the case.
Example of me being near a gay person: I was working in Cali a number of months back and one of my co-workers was gay. On a moral level it bothered me, but I minded my tongue on the issue. He knew I saw things differently but it didn't offend him at all.
A christian can be around sinners without screaming at them. That is were 'turning the other cheek' comes into play.
perhaps i shouldnt have argued that it cannot be done. However though you provide an example i dont think it invalidates the point, because if he knew how you felt and you confess you had a moral issue with him, it did not lie all that far underneath the surface. It still creates for an akward dynamic that probably in the long run hurts the effectiveness of the team. Im not going to claim this only occurs in the context we argue here, but anytime you see someone as less than equal...and i will remain of the opinion that if someone feels the other lives in a life of sin that one does think such a thing, then one cannot truly work together as a team for a long enough time period as effectively.
Jenos Ridan wrote: However, it seems only Jay is being labeled a homophobe. Isn't being called such just as hateful as the supposed hate he has for homosexuals? How dare any of the stone-throwers here call him hateful when you're going most of the hating. So he thinks it is a sin. If you trully believe the there is no God, then why do you care what he thinks? Honestly, why? It shouldn't matter to you so much.
I dont necesarily disagree with what you have said. However, as luns would put it, (and probably correctly again) jay and others who hold the view that homosexuality is a sin, and is therefore apart from what they concieve to be right morality, take some of the flack for other people who many have expeirenced throughout their life expeirences. For what its worth, i dont know how jay would act in the presents of a gay person. But i can comment a little bit about why such stances are possibly homophobic, and why believe that homosexuality is a sin should be seen as problematic.
We simply dont live in our own neat cookie cutter worlds. Chances are at somepoint those with anti-gay views are going to come into contact with people who are gay. Now its hard to believe that over a long enough period of time, that certain people would not act inappropriately and harass they people they disagreed with. Now this may be right within their own belief system, as if it is possible some groups will try to convert the sinner, but its becoming increasingly less ok in the general society. And as views evolve in society, those with views seen as retroactive (as i believe those who dont believe homosexuality is a sin, would see people that do as) then they must be prepared for some kind of backlash. something perhaps of the notion for each action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
Is this type of mentality best for human interaction...no of course it isnt. One would hope that anyone (christian or not) could learn a bit from the notion of turning the other cheek. However both sides of the issue can at times take some fairly personally invested stances that are hurtful. Perhaps the bits of backlash jay and others get is simply teh general group trying to return to some bit of balance. and most likely this is what occurs in the general society at large. Anti-gay views arent popular right now, and those who have them should probably expect to find that others feel their views must be counteracted, and counteracted strongly. At least thats what i would assume is often going to be the case.
Example of me being near a gay person: I was working in Cali a number of months back and one of my co-workers was gay. On a moral level it bothered me, but I minded my tongue on the issue. He knew I saw things differently but it didn't offend him at all.
A christian can be around sinners without screaming at them. That is were 'turning the other cheek' comes into play.
perhaps i shouldnt have argued that it cannot be done. However though you provide an example i dont think it invalidates the point, because if he knew how you felt and you confess you had a moral issue with him, it did not lie all that far underneath the surface. It still creates for an akward dynamic that probably in the long run hurts the effectiveness of the team. Im not going to claim this only occurs in the context we argue here, but anytime you see someone as less than equal...and i will remain of the opinion that if someone feels the other lives in a life of sin that one does think such a thing, then one cannot truly work together as a team for a long enough time period as effectively.
You do reallise how often this occurs, right? Besides, given that the job was seasonal and people were being moved from line to line constantly, it didn't matter that much. I honestly had more issues with the hmong who worked there, but that was because I didn't know that they found eye-to-eye contact rude. Ignorance isn't really an excuse, but I trully didn't know about their culture 'til then. So I got a rude awakening.
Geting back on topic now. Shall we continue?
"There is only one road to peace, and that is to conquer"-Hunter Clark
"Give a man a fire and he will be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life"- Something Hunter would say
got tonkaed wrote: However though you provide an example i dont think it invalidates the point, because if he knew how you felt and you confess you had a moral issue with him, it did not lie all that far underneath the surface. It still creates for an akward dynamic that probably in the long run hurts the effectiveness of the team.
So, what do we do with the atheist or Satanist who is working alongside a Christian? They must fell uneasy inside working alongside a Christian, right? Well, that's no good eh? I guess we need to segregate people by belief system.
This is ludacris, I have been a Christian for ALL of my working life... surrounded by non-Christians. There is no danger from either side. Except for the occasional loon (which usually comes from the non-christian side....Columbine, VT, ect.) I have an inmate on my unit right now who is openly gay. Another inmate came to me asking me to move him into a different room (because the gay guy lives in his room). I told the guy, "It's not contagious and he will not be moved." I may disagree with the lifestyle but I don't condone discrimination. Me and the gay inmate get along pretty good, He does not know what my views on homosexuality are... and probably won't unless he asks.... and even if he does ask..I doubt it would change our "working relationship".
THE DEBATE IS OVER...
PLAYER57832 wrote:Too many of those who claim they don't believe global warming are really "end-timer" Christians.
jay_a2j wrote:So, what do we do with the atheist or Satanist who is working alongside a Christian? They must fell uneasy inside working alongside a Christian, right? Well, that's no good eh? I guess we need to segregate people by belief system.
This is ludacris, I have been a Christian for ALL of my working life... surrounded by non-Christians. There is no danger from either side.
Can't believe I'm about to say this but ... I agree with the right wing Christian looney!
There's absolutely no reason to segregate/discriminate against someone because of what they believe in. Fair enough, I think Jay's beliefs are a load of rubbish - but I'd not bat an eyelid against working alongside him. Not sharing the same views on one or two things is no reason to discriminate against anyone ...
jay_a2j wrote:So, what do we do with the atheist or Satanist who is working alongside a Christian? They must fell uneasy inside working alongside a Christian, right? Well, that's no good eh? I guess we need to segregate people by belief system.
This is ludacris, I have been a Christian for ALL of my working life... surrounded by non-Christians. There is no danger from either side.
Can't believe I'm about to say this but ... I agree with the right wing Christian looney!
There's absolutely no reason to segregate/discriminate against someone because of what they believe in. Fair enough, I think Jay's beliefs are a load of rubbish - but I'd not bat an eyelid against working alongside him. Not sharing the same views on one or two things is no reason to discriminate against anyone ...
Agreed, and that extends to all things.
You cannot say someone cannot do what others can do because of their race, sex, sexual orientation, age, etc.
Initiate discovery! Fire the Machines! Throw the switch Igor! THROW THE F***ING SWITCH!
jay_a2j wrote:So, what do we do with the atheist or Satanist who is working alongside a Christian? They must fell uneasy inside working alongside a Christian, right? Well, that's no good eh? I guess we need to segregate people by belief system.
This is ludacris, I have been a Christian for ALL of my working life... surrounded by non-Christians. There is no danger from either side.
Can't believe I'm about to say this but ... I agree with the right wing Christian looney!
There's absolutely no reason to segregate/discriminate against someone because of what they believe in. Fair enough, I think Jay's beliefs are a load of rubbish - but I'd not bat an eyelid against working alongside him. Not sharing the same views on one or two things is no reason to discriminate against anyone ...
In this rare instance...I TOO agree with the right wing christian looney!
It's actually a very liberal way of thinking jay...you surprise me sometimes.
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jay_a2j wrote:I have an inmate on my unit right now who is openly gay. Another inmate came to me asking me to move him into a different room (because the gay guy lives in his room). I told the guy, "It's not contagious and he will not be moved." I may disagree with the lifestyle but I don't condone discrimination.
That's good to hear. Unlike some Christians in the United Kingdom - a recent law that gay people could not be denied services because of their sexuality met a lot of strong opposition from religious people who felt that it's fine to treat some people as second class citizens.
got tonkaed wrote: However though you provide an example i dont think it invalidates the point, because if he knew how you felt and you confess you had a moral issue with him, it did not lie all that far underneath the surface. It still creates for an akward dynamic that probably in the long run hurts the effectiveness of the team.
So, what do we do with the atheist or Satanist who is working alongside a Christian? They must fell uneasy inside working alongside a Christian, right? Well, that's no good eh? I guess we need to segregate people by belief system.
This is ludacris, I have been a Christian for ALL of my working life... surrounded by non-Christians. There is no danger from either side. Except for the occasional loon (which usually comes from the non-christian side....Columbine, VT, ect.) I have an inmate on my unit right now who is openly gay. Another inmate came to me asking me to move him into a different room (because the gay guy lives in his room). I told the guy, "It's not contagious and he will not be moved." I may disagree with the lifestyle but I don't condone discrimination. Me and the gay inmate get along pretty good, He does not know what my views on homosexuality are... and probably won't unless he asks.... and even if he does ask..I doubt it would change our "working relationship".
My point exactly.
"There is only one road to peace, and that is to conquer"-Hunter Clark
"Give a man a fire and he will be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life"- Something Hunter would say
I think what the point that i didnt make as well as i would have hoped should attempt to reach is that the more that this difficult dynamic is pervasive, the less effective the team atmosphere is. Its not whether or not one person can act professionally around someone they disagree with, we all should be able to do that. Its when it becomes ok in someones mind to view someone that they depend on in the workplace or work alongside as someone inferior, and i continue to maintain if you view someone as living a life of sin you do, this dynamic extrapolated to larger numbers is bad for everyone involved. Yes it is probably somewhat of an unavoidable mess. But by having a general lack of ability to view someones life as equal to your own, you reduce your value as a partner in the work place, i feel this point is rather simple to comprehend.
got tonkaed wrote:I think what the point that i didnt make as well as i would have hoped should attempt to reach is that the more that this difficult dynamic is pervasive, the less effective the team atmosphere is. Its not whether or not one person can act professionally around someone they disagree with, we all should be able to do that. Its when it becomes ok in someones mind to view someone that they depend on in the workplace or work alongside as someone inferior, and i continue to maintain if you view someone as living a life of sin you do, this dynamic extrapolated to larger numbers is bad for everyone involved. Yes it is probably somewhat of an unavoidable mess. But by having a general lack of ability to view someones life as equal to your own, you reduce your value as a partner in the work place, i feel this point is rather simple to comprehend.
Uhhh, What part of "love your enemies" do you not get!? Any 'christian' who sees those who are sinners as inferior is NOT a christian. Just because I don't care for their life-style, doesn't mean I don't care for them. What is so hard about this to get?
"There is only one road to peace, and that is to conquer"-Hunter Clark
"Give a man a fire and he will be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life"- Something Hunter would say
Jenos Ridan wrote:Uhhh, What part of "love your enemies" do you not get!? Any 'christian' who sees those who are sinners as inferior is NOT a christian. Just because I don't care for their life-style, doesn't mean I don't care for them. What is so hard about this to get?
Do you consider Satan to be an enemy? If yes, do you love him? If no, what do you consider him to be?
In heaven... Everything is fine, in heaven... Everything is fine, in heaven... Everything is fine... You got your things, and I've got mine.
But see this goes to thing of 'you aren't a real christian'. You can't say that anybody isn't a 'real' christian - they just don't believe what you beleive. That's why we have denominations of religions.
got tonkaed wrote:I think what the point that i didnt make as well as i would have hoped should attempt to reach is that the more that this difficult dynamic is pervasive, the less effective the team atmosphere is. Its not whether or not one person can act professionally around someone they disagree with, we all should be able to do that. Its when it becomes ok in someones mind to view someone that they depend on in the workplace or work alongside as someone inferior, and i continue to maintain if you view someone as living a life of sin you do, this dynamic extrapolated to larger numbers is bad for everyone involved. Yes it is probably somewhat of an unavoidable mess. But by having a general lack of ability to view someones life as equal to your own, you reduce your value as a partner in the work place, i feel this point is rather simple to comprehend.
Hmmm Are you saying that you are against gays in the military? Cause thats what it sounds like.
THE DEBATE IS OVER...
PLAYER57832 wrote:Too many of those who claim they don't believe global warming are really "end-timer" Christians.
got tonkaed wrote:I think what the point that i didnt make as well as i would have hoped should attempt to reach is that the more that this difficult dynamic is pervasive, the less effective the team atmosphere is. Its not whether or not one person can act professionally around someone they disagree with, we all should be able to do that. Its when it becomes ok in someones mind to view someone that they depend on in the workplace or work alongside as someone inferior, and i continue to maintain if you view someone as living a life of sin you do, this dynamic extrapolated to larger numbers is bad for everyone involved. Yes it is probably somewhat of an unavoidable mess. But by having a general lack of ability to view someones life as equal to your own, you reduce your value as a partner in the work place, i feel this point is rather simple to comprehend.
Hmmm Are you saying that you are against gays in the military? Cause thats what it sounds like.
got tonkaed wrote:I think what the point that i didnt make as well as i would have hoped should attempt to reach is that the more that this difficult dynamic is pervasive, the less effective the team atmosphere is. Its not whether or not one person can act professionally around someone they disagree with, we all should be able to do that. Its when it becomes ok in someones mind to view someone that they depend on in the workplace or work alongside as someone inferior, and i continue to maintain if you view someone as living a life of sin you do, this dynamic extrapolated to larger numbers is bad for everyone involved. Yes it is probably somewhat of an unavoidable mess. But by having a general lack of ability to view someones life as equal to your own, you reduce your value as a partner in the work place, i feel this point is rather simple to comprehend.
Hmmm Are you saying that you are against gays in the military? Cause thats what it sounds like.
bolded for the joking refutation and for the reason why policies against homosexuals ultimatly is bad for the military.
got tonkaed wrote:the rather simple point was that as people we really shouldnt try to view someones lifestyle as better or worse than our own.
That is a person with NO morals or convictions. (You must have really liked Clinton) What you are saying, is that there is no right and wrong. No good and bad. Everything is GREY. I say bs.
THE DEBATE IS OVER...
PLAYER57832 wrote:Too many of those who claim they don't believe global warming are really "end-timer" Christians.
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