Arms Race design flaw

[archieball]

Arms Race is perfect! End of story.

[nietzsche]

I couldn't agree more.

[demonfork]

To be clear...

I am not and have not suggested that the map be changed. (do you see this post in suggestions? Show me were I have suggested that it be changed.)

My argument is this...

1. It's dumb that the "missile launch" sites are immune from being bombarded & I believe that it is a design flaw.

2. I believe that the mapmakers originally intended for these territories to be bombardable & I have posted a plethora of evidence to support this hypothesis.

3. I believe that despite the fact that the mapmakers intended for ALL territories, on either side, be bombardable from the missile launch site, the implementation of this feature still slipped thru the cracks during the xml review/debugging process.



I actually think that it would be silly to change the map at this point as this flaw is now part of the legacy of this map (similar to how I am against changing the "no-card time out "loophole"")

[mrswdk]

You don’t want to change it, just whine about it being broken.

Sure thing, [insert name of disliked politician here].

[demonfork]

You don’t want to change it, just whine about it being broken.

Sure thing, [insert name of disliked politician here].

After considering the source, I could see why you would perceive this as whining.

[nietzsche]

From the mouths of the mapmakers...

I just noticed a major problem. Once a player is removed from one of teh countries, they have no way to actually attack back. They can bombard with teh spy or missile but not actually reclaim and territories. And since the missile can only bombard cities and the spy can only bombard presidents, scientists and target acquisitions, a player can just sit back in the bunkers and uranium and the game will never end.

To solve this I think teh spices should be able to attack, not bombard. That way there is a link back and fort between the USA and USSR.

Thoughts

WM

The missile launch can attack every territory, problem solved. Making the spies able to attack opens up a whole new can of worms, people invading via the pies and leaving the missile rather useless.

If the missile can attack any of the other territories then there is only one issue left, after you have defeated your opponent from your own land, you wont be able to get any more cards, since its bombard only from there on out, and you dont get cards for bombardment. But this is not really a central issue anyways.

I just noticed a major problem. Once a player is removed from one of teh countries, they have no way to actually attack back. They can bombard with teh spy or missile but not actually reclaim and territories. And since the missile can only bombard cities and the spy can only bombard presidents, scientists and target acquisitions, a player can just sit back in the bunkers and uranium and the game will never end.

To solve this I think teh spices should be able to attack, not bombard. That way there is a link back and fort between the USA and USSR.

Thoughts

WM

The missile launch can attack every territory, problem solved. Making the spies able to attack opens up a whole new can of worms, people invading via the pies and leaving the missile rather useless.

If the missile can attack any of the other territories then there is only one issue left, after you have defeated your opponent from your own land, you wont be able to get any more cards, since its bombard only from there on out, and you dont get cards for bombardment. But this is not really a central issue anyways.

I think you do get a card. There was a thread discussing this earlier. I can't find it.

But other than the card thing, US missile can attack any USSR territory (and vice versa) does solve the problem.

WM

If you want to keep it within the same country, perhaps rename it to Targeting Computer or something like it.

I agree and disagree, I am pretty sure what we call targeting computers and their function is targeting acquisition.

However, it may be less confusing to rename it.

Personally, I know that he means to keep it in the same country, but I could definitely rationalize it being the primary target for the first strike. A sequence like: The president controls the warhead and has now locked on to the desired target in the opposing country.

even though it says the nuke can attack any foreign territory?

On another note - 2 player FOW games on this will be awesome... a short battle to chose a side... then who can get the vital territories quick enough to get the missile - without being able to see what the other player is doing - until KABOOOOOOMMMMMMM!!!!

C.

Actually since the missile launch can bombard any foreign territory, once a player occupies it, they will see the rest of the map. FOW become pointless once that territory is held. Spies work against FOW as well bu tin a much more limited way.

WM

...The only way this can happen is by allowing the missile launch territory to bombard all enemy territories.


WM

So basically the map will allow the missile launch territory to attack ANY opposing territory. That is, any territory the other country can control.


WM

And the smoking gun...

PS - "Launch" territory will also need to be bombarded for the victory too...

C.

If there are 2 players, then they each take all territories on USA and USSR so that they each have their own side, there is no way for them to attack or bombard MISSLE LAUNCH, and it doesnt have a killer neutral, correct? So there would be no way to win.

--lanyards

I think that the Missile can bombard everything - "Missile Launch" included.

C.

The mapmakers intended for all territories on opposing sides to be accessible from the missile launch.

Based on all of the evidence it's clear that the current inability to bombard the missile launch territory is a design flaw.

tl;dr

[mrswdk]

You don’t want to change it, just whine about it being broken.

Sure thing, [insert name of disliked politician here].

After considering the source, I could see why you would perceive this as whining.

Go eat your jianbing.

[demonfork]

You don’t want to change it, just whine about it being broken.

Sure thing, [insert name of disliked politician here].

After considering the source, I could see why you would perceive this as whining.

Go eat your jianbing.

肏你祖宗十八代

[mrswdk]

Just FYI, if you go around saying '肏' instead of ‘操' people will think you are really fricking grim.

Not like 'omg he swears' grim, like 'drunk 50 year old trying to put his hand up girl's skirts at the bar' grim.

[demonfork]

Just FYI, if you go around saying '肏' instead of ‘操' people will think you are really fricking grim.

Not like 'omg he swears' grim, like 'drunk 50 year old trying to put his hand up girl's skirts at the bar' grim.

操你祖宗十八代

[iAmCaffeine]

I have played arms race 9000+ games. It is perfect and makes you think. Just because you lost a game doesnt mean it is a flaw.

can't argue with 9k
I love playing the recently popular baltic crusades but id argue arms race is less punishing drop wise.

In what way would you say it's less punishing? I find it hard to agree with that.

[mrswdk]

Just FYI, if you go around saying '肏' instead of ‘操' people will think you are really fricking grim.

Not like 'omg he swears' grim, like 'drunk 50 year old trying to put his hand up girl's skirts at the bar' grim.

操你祖宗十八代

Good work

Everyone else, take note. If dtf can learn and grow so rapidly then the rest of you can too.

[Ltrain]

I have played arms race 9000+ games. It is perfect and makes you think. Just because you lost a game doesnt mean it is a flaw.

can't argue with 9k
I love playing the recently popular baltic crusades but id argue arms race is less punishing drop wise.

In what way would you say it's less punishing? I find it hard to agree with that.

I dunno man, I've played arms 900+ baltic 1k+, and that is my general take away. I have pulled off more upsets when I thought game was lost on arms race vs baltic. We are talking about two pretty solid maps.

[iAmCaffeine]

I have played arms race 9000+ games. It is perfect and makes you think. Just because you lost a game doesnt mean it is a flaw.

can't argue with 9k
I love playing the recently popular baltic crusades but id argue arms race is less punishing drop wise.

In what way would you say it's less punishing? I find it hard to agree with that.

I dunno man, I've played arms 900+ baltic 1k+, and that is my general take away. I have pulled off more upsets when I thought game was lost on arms race vs baltic. We are talking about two pretty solid maps.

Are you talking about 1v1s or multiplayer games?

I guess it also depends on quality of the player. If you get a bad drop against someone who knows what they're doing on Baltics, they'll just gradually close you out. On Arms Race they don't really have the same freedom of the map to do so.

[Ltrain]

I'm talking 1v1's mostly. I don't agree with the original premise of the thread and think its a part of the map and makes sense with the title and theme.

But as for the 1v1 thing which I think you are also talking about, it is a tough debate between the two and depends on what settings you play I guess.

I think I would've been pro baltic more fair vs arms race had I not ever played xroads. I don't know how many times I had grabbed a safe capital or bunker and had him come from behind. It made me see all the angles. I am still likely to play the old way at first, but less likely to give up. With baltic, I am actually more inclined to give up early. They are both in my top 10. I really was just backing up xroads initial statement. I think it would be hard to win a debate on the maps from either side. The Feudals win the 1v1 fairness drop in my opinion, but maybe less interesting.

[iAmCaffeine]

I like Arms Race how it is, but it does seem like there was a design flaw based on the comments we've seen in this thread from the map makers at the time. Feudal drops on average would be more fair than regular maps, but if you know what you're doing there are definitely castles you want, or don't.

One map I think always has reasonable drops is Pot Mosbi. Pelo War is okay too.

[Ltrain]

I like Arms Race how it is, but it does seem like there was a design flaw based on the comments we've seen in this thread from the map makers at the time. Feudal drops on average would be more fair than regular maps, but if you know what you're doing there are definitely castles you want, or don't.

One map I think always has reasonable drops is Pot Mosbi. Pelo War is okay too.

see... I really like Pot Mosbi. But most of the speeders I start are 1 min random NON trench so if it pops up I'm likely to win. Not because it is an unfair based on drop and 1st turn but because I have played 8 million games so.. ya know. So does it's lack of play prevent it from being in the discussion? I guess not, since this is supposed to be an arms race design flaw discussion

Pelo I agree is fair. Kaskavel and John999 would agree im sure. One of these days, I want to win or be beaten by someone, non escalating, going backdoor in Pelo. Hasn't happened yet.

Caffeine- I did look one other thing up on the arms vs baltic convo, just for fun.

Arms Race
18 starting points
6 per 1v1 player
6 neutral NON BONUS usual starting point spots
33.33% starting points that aren't bonuses and start neutral

Baltic
26 starting points
8 per 1v1 player
10 neutral NON BONUS usual starting point spots
38.5% starting points that aren't bonuses and start neutral

And depending how you like to play, those stats could be used on either side of the argument. For me it says that the arms race board is so much smaller, so the game will be shorter, yet more chances to grab a bonus to stay alive. But I see the argument on the other side

[Ltrain]

Since no one will see this, I'll throw a little LingLing slam down here. Dude seems nice enough. I searched his last 100 games to see if he played another map other than Promontory Summit. I found one. A loss to Whambot https://www.conquerclub.com/game.php?game=18092639

[iAmCaffeine]

I like Arms Race how it is, but it does seem like there was a design flaw based on the comments we've seen in this thread from the map makers at the time. Feudal drops on average would be more fair than regular maps, but if you know what you're doing there are definitely castles you want, or don't.

One map I think always has reasonable drops is Pot Mosbi. Pelo War is okay too.

see... I really like Pot Mosbi. But most of the speeders I start are 1 min random NON trench so if it pops up I'm likely to win. Not because it is an unfair based on drop and 1st turn but because I have played 8 million games so.. ya know. So does it's lack of play prevent it from being in the discussion? I guess not, since this is supposed to be an arms race design flaw discussion

Pelo I agree is fair. Kaskavel and John999 would agree im sure. One of these days, I want to win or be beaten by someone, non escalating, going backdoor in Pelo. Hasn't happened yet.

Caffeine- I did look one other thing up on the arms vs baltic convo, just for fun.

Arms Race
18 starting points
6 per 1v1 player
6 neutral NON BONUS usual starting point spots
33.33% starting points that aren't bonuses and start neutral

Baltic
26 starting points
8 per 1v1 player
10 neutral NON BONUS usual starting point spots
38.5% starting points that aren't bonuses and start neutral

And depending how you like to play, those stats could be used on either side of the argument. For me it says that the arms race board is so much smaller, so the game will be shorter, yet more chances to grab a bonus to stay alive. But I see the argument on the other side

I think the way Pot Mosbi works makes it very hard to have an unfair drop, at least in 1v1. The worst drop I've ever had was in my current clan war game vs PACK. It was bad because we couldn't see any of their starting positions and they could see ours, but you still know which 4 they control. That's basically as bad as it can get.

As for the Baltic vs Arms Race argument, I think they're pretty even in terms of balance. Both allow for comeback plays depending on the opponent.

[Ltrain]

word. it was a fun discussion

[Thorthoth]

Every map is designed with it's own intricacies and idiosyncracies that a player must learn before mastering that map.
Utensil used a strategy that worked for him on another map and applied it inappropriately to Arms Race. That was silly of him.

[Ltrain]

I've actually been playing more arms race again because of this convo. Maybe baltic is better. But if you have xroads as your opponent, don't get complacent because of a nice drop

[iAmCaffeine]

I've actually been playing more arms race again because of this convo. Maybe baltic is better. But if you have xroads as your opponent, don't get complacent because of a nice drop

Has your nose always been this brown?

[Ltrain]

I've actually been playing more arms race again because of this convo. Maybe baltic is better. But if you have xroads as your opponent, don't get complacent because of a nice drop

Has your nose always been this brown?

not sure whose ass im snuggling up against. yours for coming around on baltic after thinking about it for days or xroads for giving credit where credit is due.

Screw you guys, St patty's day map is the best.