CYOC #5 [5/16] ENDGAME [DINO DOWN]

[aage]

I'll join the bandwagon on Mets for the sake of moving the game along, seems a shame to let it die. Besides, he's probably the SK.
Unvote
Vote Mets

[Ragian]

Well...moving the game forward is a noble cause. I don't really suspect Mets more than anyone else, but then again, I don't really know whom I shouldn't suspect given DDS's role. No one speaks, so we won't gather any information anyway. Let's hear a claim from Mets given he's at L-2.

Let the shameless bandwagon have it's way.

[Metsfanmax]

I don't want the game to die either, so I'll accept the prod to claim. I am Barack Obama, Third Party President. As part of my role, I switch alignments during the game. I started as town, and then after every two nights, I switch alignments. So I was town on D1 and D2, and was mafia on D3 and this day. Starting D5, I'll be town again. When I am town, I have the ability to cast an extra vote in secret. I have only had the opportunity to use this on D1 and D2, and only used it on D1. (My role should be proved by the lack of a counterclaim for the secret vote on D1.) When I am mafia, I am merely aligned with the mafia and have no powers, nor can I talk to them in private.

Should town lynch me? Obviously as I don't want to lose, I'm going to say no, but let me give reasoning for it anyway. I'll be town again for D5 and D6. I think that town stands a pretty decent chance of outing the remaining scum and winning the game before I turn back to scum, which is at the beginning of D7, if we get there. If I'm the only scum left by then, you can easily lynch me and win the game. (Of course, I hope it doesn't get to that point, as I'll lose!) Otherwise, I am not useful to the mafia since I have power and can't even advise them on strategy during the nights, so you lose nothing by not lynching me. So I think you're wasting a good lynch opportunity if you kill me today.

[Ragian]

So... Mafia didn't know that you're scum right now until you just said so?

[aage]

So I was town on D1 and D2

Yeah, no, you weren't. I know for a fact that you weren't.

Nice ploy to convince both the town and the mafia that you are their potential ally, though.

[Ragian]

Right. So you know that Mets wasn't town D1 and D2. Mets says he was. Only one of you can be right. I.e. we have found a liar between the two of you. Before I vote Mets, however, could you tell us, aage, what you know Mets was D1 and D2?

[aage]

Right. So you know that Mets wasn't town D1 and D2. Mets says he was. Only one of you can be right. I.e. we have found a liar between the two of you. Before I vote Mets, however, could you tell us, aage, what you know Mets was D1 and D2?

I could, but that would open up the entire thing to unnecessary scrutiny and risk myself. I'm confident Mets is lying.

[madmitch]

Obama always lies, so Mets must be lying

[Metsfanmax]

So I was town on D1 and D2

Yeah, no, you weren't. I know for a fact that you weren't.

OK. Fair enough. That statement I made was not precise enough. I was town aligned on D1 and D2. Meaning, had end game occurred before the beginning of D3, I would win too if town wins. (Same thing is true if town wins between the beginning of D5 and the beginning of D7). But you're right, I'm never actually town, I'm third party. That makes it quite plausible that an investigation would not have revealed me as town then, and that an investigation now would not reveal me as scum.

But I am not a SK as you suggested. No one is going to counterclaim me on the secret vote, because I cast it. So unless you think I have some superhero role that has both the secret vote and a vig, you are wrong about that.

Nice ploy to convince both the town and the mafia that you are their potential ally, though.

It's what I have to do. I can't predict who's going to win, so I have to hedge and convince both town and mafia not to off me. I know that's not exactly going to make me too many friends, All I can do is provide my best arguments to both sides for why they shouldn't kill me, and hope they listen to reason and focus on their own win condition, not the independent win condition of a third party.

So... Mafia didn't know that you're scum right now until you just said so?

Correct, as far as I know, unless mafia have a cop role. (To be more precise, given the above discussion, mafia didn't know that I was mafia-aligned right now until I just said so.)

[Ragian]

What would a mafia cop help if you turn up 3rd party?

[aage]

What a coincidence, then, that the second night kill shows up exactly in the night you're changing your alignment.

[Metsfanmax]

What would a mafia cop help if you turn up 3rd party?

In that case, it wouldn't help them. Though I don't know for sure that's how it works; I have no information in my role PM about how a cop investigation would reveal me.

What a coincidence, then, that the second night kill shows up exactly in the night you're changing your alignment.

Huh? What are you suggesting here exactly? Also, note that I didn't change alignment until the beginning of D3; the role change is only effective at the end of the night on which it occurs, which is basically equivalent to saying that the role change occurs at the beginning of the next day.

[Metsfanmax]

Huh? What are you suggesting here exactly? Also, note that I didn't change alignment until the beginning of D3; the role change is only effective at the end of the night on which it occurs, which is basically equivalent to saying that the role change occurs at the beginning of the next day.

EBWOP: meant alignment change, not role change.

Anyway, unless you've got some other explanation for the secret vote, I suggest you move on to finding scum.

[Samlen]

So two mafia dead, but one townie converted. If the game started with 4 mafia, then there are 3 left, or rather 4 including mets. This can't be true because the game would've ended? So either mets is lying or the mafia started as 3. It all comes down to if we believe the mafia were strong enough to start as 3/16 or not. To be fair, if mets is telling the truth then 3/16 mafia would make sense, but if he's lying then i would assume we started with 4. Which means there's a good chance we need to get this right today, so we need as much information as we can get if it directly relates to mets. So either we need a more thorough explanation than "i know he's lying" or we need another couple people that confirm aage's claim. Actually we need that anyways in case aage is lying. I'd say mass claim would be nice but anything can be claimed with this game...

[Ragian]

When you say that "we" started with four mafia, what do you mean by "we"?

[madmitch]

good catch

[Ragian]

Thing is, I don't see the big problem lynching Mets. His role sounds very far-fetched to me (but this is my first CYOC game, so perhaps others should be the judge of what's what). Also, if we lynch him now, we're lynching scum (even if he says he'll turn after tonight). I mean, how does it work? If we were to lynch town today and scum get away with nightkilling another townie, have scum then won with Mets?

[Metsfanmax]

Y'all can do whatever you want, but I'd suggest you focus on scum hunting rather than on me. i'm already out in the open now, so you can deal with me later if it comes to that. But killing me gives you zero leverage over the actual mafia, who still need to be killed for town to win this game, and who are the ones with roles that are actually dangerous to town. And if you do vote for me, you'd better find a way to make peace in your heart with the fact that no one else can explain the D1 secret vote.

My money for today is still on benga, due to his continued lack of contribution.

[Samlen]

When you say that "we" started with four mafia, what do you mean by "we"?

We the town, the group of people playing this game, etc. Just too lazy to differentiate. If noone can counter met's secret vote claim then he's at least telling part of the truth. If noone can back up aage's claim that mets must be lying we're just going off of word v word. The only reason I'm not voting for what is basically a fancy survivor claim right now is that we could be in lylo, depending on how many mafia members this game started with.

[Metsfanmax]

aage isn't accusing me of lying. It was a misunderstanding that I corrected.

[Ragian]

Why can't scum have a secret voter? Why can't third party?

[Metsfanmax]

Why can't scum have a secret voter? Why can't third party?

It's true that nothing stops scum from having a secret voter in principle. But I think aage knows that I'm not scum. Notice specifically that he accused me of being the SK before I claimed, and then after I claimed, triggered on the fact that I got a little sloppy and wrote "I am town" rather than "I am town aligned." I'm not sure how he knows I'm third party, but if he knew I was scum, surely he would have said so.

[Ragian]

Right. I'll concede that...

[Pikanchion]

All we can really conclude with certainty is that town does not have a secret voter due to the lack of counter claim, we have no proof that (assuming their other statements are true):

• Metsfanmax has no abilities while helping scum
• Metsfanmax switches sides on the days that they claim/has their stated win condition
• Metsfanmax actually has a role that helps one team then the other (and hasn't merely become mafia-sided due to the Yakuza)

My main concern is that Metsfanmax is either lying about having no abilities while helping scum (two extra votes in scum's favour quickly puts town in a very precarious position), or that they never had a side-switching feature at all (and have merely become scum). It is also worth noting that should everybody believe the claim then Metsfanmax no longer has any real incentive to help town unless it is clear the mafia will win on a day that is inopportune for them if they don't; voting for the wrong person on a town-aligned day is far more risky than simply pushing for a no lynch (safe in the knowledge that scum have no reason to kill them) and waiting until they are on the mafia side again.

If I don't believe Metsfanmax I should obviously vote for them, and if I do believe then it's still probably safer that I vote for them.

I don't recall if I was voting for anybody or whatever so... Unvote: <all players>
Vote: Metsfanmax

[Ragian]

I share your concerns, Pika. Basically, it all comes down to whether or not one believes what Mets is saying. And even then, we're not killing town.