Illegal Immigration

[ritz627]

Actually, its about 50-50 with some swing states. Anyway, if you want to believe that democrats will be voted out of office fine, frankly, I don't.

[ritz627]

Lol, and you are honestly trying to tell me you are not racist. All mexicans and/or latinos are not illegally here.

First: I am NOT a Racist!
Second: No Shit!

Please direct your comments to someone else, i've come to realize that talking to you is a waste of time.

I pity you, you are one crazy individual.

[ritz627]

I want illegal immigration to stop, I just dont think its logically possible to make it stop without offering Mexico and other countries some sort of aid. Building a bigger fence and patroling with more people wont stop them from entering. They can't just instantly become a prosperous nation. And I believe that the ones who are here should stay, but if you want it to be an "agree to disagree" situation, fine, I have to go anyway.

[jay_a2j]

Actually, its about 50-50 with some swing states. Anyway, if you want to believe that democrats will be voted out of office fine, frankly, I don't.

Check your figures....

http://www.workpermit.com/news/2006_01_ ... ts_bad.htm



If Hillary becomes president (perish the thought) you can bet yer IBM stock Dems will lose the House and Senate.

[ritz627]

If Hillary becomes president (perish the thought) you can bet yer IBM stock Dems will lose the House and Senate.

I'm voting edwards.

[ritz627]

Actually, its about 50-50 with some swing states. Anyway, if you want to believe that democrats will be voted out of office fine, frankly, I don't.

Check your figures....

http://www.workpermit.com/news/2006_01_ ... ts_bad.htm

The issue of illegal immigration doesnt represent America's opinion on democrat or republican, and will certainly not decide whether people will vote republican or democrat. The country is pretty evenly split between democrat and republican.

[Iz Man]

I'm voting edwards.

Whoa, you need to venture out of Fairfield county.....

[spurgistan]

Jay - you're right. Illegal immigration is a bad thing. It basically ends up as government money being spent inefficiently (i.e. it doesn't account for increased spending where it doesn't think it has a pop increase), it creates a class of workers that are more or less tied to their employer (and we know how well they're inclined to take care of their workers if they know that) and it undermines the efforts of labor unions. If immigration laws made more sense, there might not be as many. Unfortunately, as Nobunaga said, trying to get a green card can be a royal pain in the ass, and he's not a undereducated farm laborer. If the United States were to make it easier for people who deserve residency and are willing to work hard to obtain it, we'd all be better off.
And instead, of penalizing the people, why not actually penalize businesses when they cater to illegal labor? If immigrants didn't know that they were guaranteed that business would be willing to look the other way if they were willing to work for minimum wage, would they be as willing to cross? No. We have laws on the books that are supposed to penalize businesses for that activity, but under the pro-corporatist regime, are nearly always ignored. Long post.

[jay_a2j]

Jay - you're right. Illegal immigration is a bad thing. It basically ends up as government money being spent inefficiently (i.e. it doesn't account for increased spending where it doesn't think it has a pop increase), it creates a class of workers that are more or less tied to their employer (and we know how well they're inclined to take care of their workers if they know that) and it undermines the efforts of labor unions. If immigration laws made more sense, there might not be as many. Unfortunately, as Nobunaga said, trying to get a green card can be a royal pain in the ass, and he's not a undereducated farm laborer. If the United States were to make it easier for people who deserve residency and are willing to work hard to obtain it, we'd all be better off.
And instead, of penalizing the people, why not actually penalize businesses when they cater to illegal labor? If immigrants didn't know that they were guaranteed that business would be willing to look the other way if they were willing to work for minimum wage, would they be as willing to cross? No. We have laws on the books that are supposed to penalize businesses for that activity, but under the pro-corporatist regime, are nearly always ignored. Long post.

I agree, businesses should be held accountable for hiring illegals. Making it easier to become a US citizen is also a good idea. The problem is the millions here illegally that need to leave and apply for citizenship like everyone else. Amnesty in any form, will not help the situation. They need to leave.

[ritz627]

I'm voting edwards.

Whoa, you need to venture out of Fairfeild county.....

possibly....How did you know I lived in Farfield county? Lucky guess, or did I say it sometime?

[Iz Man]

possibly....How did you know I lived in Fairfield county? Lucky guess, or did I say it sometime?

LOL. In CT a little too close to yankee territory. Not too hard.
I'm just north of you so it was kinda easy

[ritz627]

Jay - you're right. Illegal immigration is a bad thing. It basically ends up as government money being spent inefficiently (i.e. it doesn't account for increased spending where it doesn't think it has a pop increase), it creates a class of workers that are more or less tied to their employer (and we know how well they're inclined to take care of their workers if they know that) and it undermines the efforts of labor unions. If immigration laws made more sense, there might not be as many. Unfortunately, as Nobunaga said, trying to get a green card can be a royal pain in the ass, and he's not a undereducated farm laborer. If the United States were to make it easier for people who deserve residency and are willing to work hard to obtain it, we'd all be better off.
And instead, of penalizing the people, why not actually penalize businesses when they cater to illegal labor? If immigrants didn't know that they were guaranteed that business would be willing to look the other way if they were willing to work for minimum wage, would they be as willing to cross? No. We have laws on the books that are supposed to penalize businesses for that activity, but under the pro-corporatist regime, are nearly always ignored. Long post.

Yea, I guess. At any rate, getting the one's who are in would be very difficult, and I'm sure what you are saying would cause a lot of controversy .It would potentially be political suicide for the person who proposes it, and would certainly upset businesses. The difficulty lies is our nation being a pro-corporatist regime. Building a bigger fence or highering more patrolers is not the way to solve the problem. And I definitely agree that if the US were to make it easier for those who deserve residency and work hard for it, this would be a lot less of a problem. The majority of illegal immigrants are people who deserve residency, but can't get it because they will die before they ever will. I'm not saying that illegal immigration is great for the country, but is certainly not destroying it as much as some sugest. Deporting illegal immigrants, unfortunately, may have this effect. I guess what it come down to is that the US needs to make it easier for people to earn citizenship.


P.S.-I should really learn to proofread before posting...hence the 4 edits.

[ritz627]

possibly....How did you know I lived in Fairfield county? Lucky guess, or did I say it sometime?

LOL. In CT a little too close to yankee territory. Not too hard.
I'm just north of you so it was kinda easy

Got it.

[Neutrino]

You cannot just get them to leave even if you wanted them to. It would cause a major economic catastrophe, entire business would collapse, and even more jobs would go over seas. No one would agree to fund such a major opperation, and with the federal deficiet where it is now, the government is in no position to do so now. You cannot get them to leave, and you will never stop them from coming when thier own lives are at stake.

Their lives aren't at stake! these people aren't starving, they pay thousands of dollars to be smuggled across the border. If they wanted a better life, my suggestion would be to not have so many children! It's not that difficult to figure out. Respect our laws and apply to come here legally, if it takes longer than they like, Too Bad!

They don't have a "right" to live here! but we have the "duty" to protect our borders and enforce our laws.
Jay is right, the very survival of my country is at stake! Secure our Borders Now!

This is the bit I don't get; "I have the privelage of being born into a wealthy family in a wealthy country, and no damn poor people seeking a better life are going to make me pay slightly more on my insurance!"

Why should you, simply because of an accident of birth, have the ability to determine the quality of life for thousands of people?

Many times you have said things along the lines of "I care about "Americans","
Who are these "Americans"? Why do they deserve your support more than starving children in Africa, or immigrants from Latin America, just because they have a piece of paper that says they are a citizen of the USA?

Shouldn't help and support be given out on a basis of need, not just what country they were born in?


No matter how ironclad you make the US-Mexico border, it will do basically no good, because people will try all the harder (because it is obviously well guarded, so it must be great on the other side; a view supported by those who are paid to get them over the border) and the number of deaths along the border will skyrocket.
Why not, rather than locking your gate and trying to ignore the problem, don't you try to help Mexico?

If Mexico becomes stable and a good place to live, then your immigrant problem will dry up completly, since people will have no modivation to come to the US. Hell, it will probably be cheaper than trying to evict a few million people and the cost of maintaining your Death Wall.

Make Mexico a better place; it's cheaper and better for everyone.

[Stopper]

This is the bit I don't get; "I have the privelage of being born into a wealthy family in a wealthy country, and no damn poor people seeking a better life are going to make me pay slightly more on my insurance!"

Why should you, simply because of an accident of birth, have the ability to determine the quality of life for thousands of people?

Many times you have said things along the lines of "I care about "Americans","
Who are these "Americans"? Why do they deserve your support more than starving children in Africa, or immigrants from Latin America, just because they have a piece of paper that says they are a citizen of the USA?

Shouldn't help and support be given out on a basis of need, not just what country they were born in?


No matter how ironclad you make the US-Mexico border, it will do basically no good, because people will try all the harder (because it is obviously well guarded, so it must be great on the other side; a view supported by those who are paid to get them over the border) and the number of deaths along the border will skyrocket.
Why not, rather than locking your gate and trying to ignore the problem, don't you try to help Mexico?

If Mexico becomes stable and a good place to live, then your immigrant problem will dry up completly, since people will have no modivation to come to the US. Hell, it will probably be cheaper than trying to evict a few million people and the cost of maintaining your Death Wall.

Make Mexico a better place; it's cheaper and better for everyone.

QFFT!

[ritz627]

Pretty much, yea, that about says it.

[ksslemp]

This is the bit I don't get; "I have the privelage of being born into a wealthy family in a wealthy country, and no damn poor people seeking a better life are going to make me pay slightly more on my insurance!"

Why should you, simply because of an accident of birth, have the ability to determine the quality of life for thousands of people?

Many times you have said things along the lines of "I care about "Americans","
Who are these "Americans"? Why do they deserve your support more than starving children in Africa, or immigrants from Latin America, just because they have a piece of paper that says they are a citizen of the USA?

Shouldn't help and support be given out on a basis of need, not just what country they were born in?


No matter how ironclad you make the US-Mexico border, it will do basically no good, because people will try all the harder (because it is obviously well guarded, so it must be great on the other side; a view supported by those who are paid to get them over the border) and the number of deaths along the border will skyrocket.
Why not, rather than locking your gate and trying to ignore the problem, don't you try to help Mexico?

If Mexico becomes stable and a good place to live, then your immigrant problem will dry up completly, since people will have no modivation to come to the US. Hell, it will probably be cheaper than trying to evict a few million people and the cost of maintaining your Death Wall.

Make Mexico a better place; it's cheaper and better for everyone.

QFFT!

Whatever that means?

[spurgistan]

Looks life "Quote For Truth" with an extra F in between "For" and "Truth." Let that extra F stand for whatever you want

[ksslemp]

Still don't get it!

No Comprende

[ritz627]

He agrees with Neutrino. Meaning what he said is the truth.

[ksslemp]

Oh, I see.

I would have thought Stopper would be against the U.S. going around the world making other countries "a better place".

I'm an American, so i'll work to make America a better place. How about those honest, hard-working Mexicans stay in mexico and change it for the better? If they stay there i'll send them a check! i'm sure i'd be saving money.

My loyalty is First with my Family, second with my State, third with my Country and lastly with my world.

[ritz627]

Oh, I see.

I would have thought Stopper would be against the U.S. going around the world making other countries "a better place".

I'm an American, so i'll work to make America a better place. How about those honest, hard-working Mexicans stay in mexico and change it for the better? If they stay there i'll send them a check! i'm sure i'd be saving money.

My loyalty is First with my Family, second with my State, third with my Country and lastly with my world.

Again, I'm sure if Mexico could instantly become a prosperous nation, they would.

As for the last paragraph, that philosophy is oddly similar to the confederacy way be when, and your from the south so...someone has some southern pride.

Not only that, but it seems to be a little be of selfish philosophy, "I'm going to live my life with my family and screw the rest of the world", thats the stuff of born leaders right there. Personally, for me, its first to my world, second to my family, third to my country, and last to my state, I could care less about CT.

Your idea for stopping illegal immigrants doesnt even make any sense, at least be logical. You sir, are one crazy individual, and have a very skewered idea of right and wrong, and how people will react. You arent winning anyone over with any of your posts. At least have the courtesy to read Spurgistan's and Neutrino's posts, you might learn a thing or two.

[ksslemp]

It's amazing that you started this post since you are the least educated on the subject.

Who is responsible for Mexico? Hint: It starts with "Mexi" and ends in "cans".
Mexico is screwed up because of mexicans, not because of Americans!

They've shown that they don't care about laws in their own country and again prove it by not respecting the laws of other countries. The only Immigrants who as you say "Deserve" to come here are the ones who do it legally, we are the most liberal country when it comes to immigrants, we do our part and continue to do it.
But we have the right and the duty to our fellow Americans to secure our borders and control the flow of immigrants into this country.

If we let everyone in who wanted to come in, we would look like Mexico in a generations time. I plan on fighting that future, your plan is to stick your head in a hole and to say that the problems too big. what are you 12?

If you want to increase aid to Mexico, Fine. I'm okay with that as long as we could make sure it goes directly to the people who need it. but mexicans have to take some responsibility for the state of their country, just as i'm trying to do in Mine.

[ritz627]

As I have stated before a couple times now, I am against illegal immigrants coming in here, it is a problem that needs to be solved. But not by: a.) building a bigger fence, or b.) adding more patrol units. As for the ones who are already here, they should stay for the sole reason that forcing them to leave would hurt the American economy tremendously, and would do more harm than good Offering Mexico aid is one very good way to solve the problem, again, as I have stated about 3 or 4 times now. The other alternative is what spurgistan offered, that we punish companies who offer jobs to illegal immigrants. The problem with this, is that the politician who had the unfortunate job of proposing such a bill would be commiting political suicide, because, once again as I have stated before, many businesses are responsible for funding election campaigns, and in today's age, without advertising, a politician is most likely doomed. The businessman is a powerful force. And again, as I have stated before a million times, most who enter illegally first try to enter legally but cannot because they would likely die before being allowed to enter. Many problems could be solved by making the green card easier to obtain. I have offered alternatives constantly throughout this thread. If you had the courtesy of even bothering to read my posts instead of giving them a cursory glance, you would know that I said all this.

P.S. I have bolded some parts, but that does not mean you should just look at them, try and read the entire post.

[jay_a2j]

You cannot just get them to leave even if you wanted them to. It would cause a major economic catastrophe, entire business would collapse, and even more jobs would go over seas. No one would agree to fund such a major opperation, and with the federal deficiet where it is now, the government is in no position to do so now. You cannot get them to leave, and you will never stop them from coming when thier own lives are at stake.

Their lives aren't at stake! these people aren't starving, they pay thousands of dollars to be smuggled across the border. If they wanted a better life, my suggestion would be to not have so many children! It's not that difficult to figure out. Respect our laws and apply to come here legally, if it takes longer than they like, Too Bad!

They don't have a "right" to live here! but we have the "duty" to protect our borders and enforce our laws.
Jay is right, the very survival of my country is at stake! Secure our Borders Now!

This is the bit I don't get; "I have the privelage of being born into a wealthy family in a wealthy country, and no damn poor people seeking a better life are going to make me pay slightly more on my insurance!"

Why should you, simply because of an accident of birth, have the ability to determine the quality of life for thousands of people?

Many times you have said things along the lines of "I care about "Americans","
Who are these "Americans"? Why do they deserve your support more than starving children in Africa, or immigrants from Latin America, just because they have a piece of paper that says they are a citizen of the USA?

Shouldn't help and support be given out on a basis of need, not just what country they were born in?


No matter how ironclad you make the US-Mexico border, it will do basically no good, because people will try all the harder (because it is obviously well guarded, so it must be great on the other side; a view supported by those who are paid to get them over the border) and the number of deaths along the border will skyrocket.
Why not, rather than locking your gate and trying to ignore the problem, don't you try to help Mexico?

If Mexico becomes stable and a good place to live, then your immigrant problem will dry up completly, since people will have no modivation to come to the US. Hell, it will probably be cheaper than trying to evict a few million people and the cost of maintaining your Death Wall.

Make Mexico a better place; it's cheaper and better for everyone.

Oh give me a break. America has helped millions all over the world. We were giving North Korea food for their starving people and guess what? They are still starving. Why? Because the dictator running the country didn't give them the food! WE CAN NOT SAVE THE WORLD! We are not required by the fact we are successful to make other nations prosper. Countries and leaders of countries need to step up to the plate and provide for themselves! We can only do so much. Today its millions of Mexicans we save by allowing them into the country illegally and tomorrow it will be millions of Venezuelans? The next day Canadians? When does it stop? When will it be OK to look out for America first, before other nations? With your mindset America is doomed. And you don't even see it.