The Roman Empire *Page 11* [Vacation]

[Gwalchmai]

It's not being put forward as the name of a province, but as the name of an area, in much the same way that Spain, Gaul and Africa were names of areas. The reference to the prefecture of Oriens was to show that the Romans applied the name to that area.

Byzantium existed as a city during the Roman Empire.

[Guiscard]

Oriens is probably around the time of the late Roman Empire, but it is probably still pre-Eastern Roman Empire and pre-Byzantine Empire.

I know you're sold on the idea now (you posted while I was just looking something up ) but just to back up what Pious says there (and because I've looked it up now) I was going to mention that Tacitus in his Histories, which cover the period of the four emperors, often refers to that area as the East, or as the provinces of the East when he wants to deal with events there. I would guess that the naming of the prefecture was probably a case of just employing a name that the area was generally known as in an official form.

Thanks for the input. We'll be going with Oriens, then, as your both pretty conclusive

Glad I've got some good minds helping me out. I'm study medieval history. I haven't done the Roman Empire proper since I was a first year undergrad.

[Guiscard]

The Praetorian prefecture of the East or of Oriens (Latin: Praefectura Praetorio Orientis, Greek: Υπαρχία των της Έω πραιτωρίων) was one of four large Praetorian prefectures into which the Late Roman Empire was divided. As it comprised the larger part of the Eastern Roman Empire, and its seat was at Constantinople, the Praetorian Prefect was the second most powerful man in the East, after the Emperor, often serving as his first minister.

If you se Oriens not present provinces.

Qwert, every territory in the map is concurrent either with the correct Roman province name or else the nearest approximation if none exists (for example Britannia Inferior / Superior). My source is mainly http://www.unrv.com, but also the much appreciated help from knowledgeable users commenting in the thread, both on proper Latin spelling and on the Empire itself. The problem we have is assigning continents, because the Romans didn't divide the Empire up into large administrative taking into regards playability! The debate about the Asian continent is pretty straightforward. As we lack an 'offical' title, as it were, Oriens is the most convincing name, and posters have given both internet links and evidence in primary sources (see the above post by Gwalchmai). I really don't see what your problem is here. We're making every effort to be historically accurate and correct.

[Ruben Cassar]

Yes even though it's not 100% accurate I think we should stick with Oriens as it's the best option we have so far.

[Qwert]

Do what you want to do,i know that these is not corect,because orience whas exist 300AD.

[boberz]

i dont know enough about the history and you guys seem to but i also know that if what guisgard said is true (being no sub-divisions into continents) then there is no right or wrong answer and oriens seems the best alternative

[Guiscard]

Do what you want to do,i know that these is not corect,because orience whas exist 300AD.

We know. Its a generic map not a period specific one.

What would you call it then Qwert?

[nyuklhed]

Wait a Second here, am i going crazy or is the bonus for Italia only 3?!?!

thats ridiculous!

It only has 5 countires, which happen to be border countries, and it is touching five different continents?/

can that get changed?

[Qwert]

Ops ,mine mistake,you dont know how to call these part of Roman empire,these is easy you can put these sountry to call Asia,and these more right then Oriense.

[Qwert]

I se also that you have some mistake to,Achae these for me mistake.

[Qwert]

Now i look yours last update,and i can say that you have several mistake,if you want to create map to present Roman empire,you can not eliminate provinces like hes never exist,and these yours bigest mistake,and if you dont se then i will give you list of yours mistake.

[Gwalchmai]

We've had the Asia suggestion. Yes, Asia was used to describe the continent of Asia, but it was also used to describe the area of Asia minor, and to describe the province of Asia. On the map it is used already as the province.

Just because oriens wasn't a recognised political division, it doesn't mean it isn't a correct description of the area. Today we use the terms the East, or the West to speak about certain areas of the world, and that is what the Romans did, and did it well before 300 B.C.. Check out Tacitus (writing in the first/second centuries A.D.) Histories 1.10, 1.50, 2.1, and 2.32 for various references to the East as a general area, the armies of the East, or the provinces of the East. Each time, he uses the word oriens, which is also found being used in the same way by Suetonius (writing at a similar time) and Cicero (writing in the first century B.C.). So oriens is a proper Latin word that could be used by the Romans to describe the provinces in that area and isn't really incorrect. Incidentally, the word Occidens could be used to refer to the provinces of the West.

Achae and a couple of other spelling mistakes have already been brought up.

Wait a Second here, am i going crazy or is the bonus for Italia only 3?!?!

I think you also get a bonus of 2 for holding Italy, so the bonus is actually 5.

[Qwert]

here mine sugestion,how i se these map.
Option 1:You can create map of Roman empire when he been all united with 1 emperor and with provinces from 120 AD,and with these country:
1.Gallia
2.Hispania
3.Italia
4.Africa
5.Asia
6.Illyrium
Option 2:You can create map of roman empire when hes become split in 4 part,and rules by 4 emperors,and with provinces from 300 AD,and with these country.
1.Praetorian prefecture of Galliae
2.Praetorian prefecture of Italy and Africa
3.Prefecture of Illyricum
4.Prefecture of Oriens
here you can put extra bonuses for holding 4 capitals.

I hope that i help you in your choice to create 100% map with real provinces.

[Guiscard]

here mine sugestion,how i se these map.
Option 1:You can create map of Roman empire when he been all united with 1 emperor and with provinces from 120 AD,and with these country:
1.Gallia
2.Hispania
3.Italia
4.Africa
5.Asia
6.Illyrium
Option 2:You can create map of roman empire when hes become split in 4 part,and rules by 4 emperors,and with provinces from 300 AD,and with these country.
1.Praetorian prefecture of Galliae
2.Praetorian prefecture of Italy and Africa
3.Prefecture of Illyricum
4.Prefecture of Oriens
here you can put extra bonuses for holding 4 capitals.

I hope that i help you in your choice to create 100% map with real provinces.

All the provinces ARE real, Qwert. Which provinces are not real? As I've said, its a generic empire map. The map does not come from a particular year but is more a map of the empire at its greatest extent so players can fight over and conquer it. I take it you didn't check the source I gave you. The individual territories are named either exactly as the Romans would have called them 'officially', or else our best guess in proper Latin. The continent names also are proper Latin names, pretty much the same as you seem to be suggesting, but the Asian continent HAD no official name and so we must find a suitable substitute.

Oriens is the best option we've heard so far. Matter closed.

[Guiscard]

Wait a Second here, am i going crazy or is the bonus for Italia only 3?!?!

thats ridiculous!

It only has 5 countires, which happen to be border countries, and it is touching five different continents?/

can that get changed?

It has a total bonus of 5 including Rome, which you must hold to hold the continent itself. I'm going to need to make that clearer, it seems.

[Qwert]

No,its look that you dont understand me,these is a names of Continent.

[Guiscard]

No,its look that you dont understand me,these is a names of Continent.

Yes I know. The continent name of 'Asia' is just as 'unofficial' as Oriens. Both were informal names for the East, neither an 'official' province name. I'm going with Oriens to stop confusion with the Asia province. We also have to take into account playability. Four big continents would create a pretty bad playing experience in my opinion. The best maps need a mix of large, small and medium continents that allow expansion and a good flow of play.

[Qwert]

Here we go,im start research of yours source for these project,and after i look these map with wikipedia map,and also with yours map,i get conclusion that you definitly dont want to create great map with a large number of terittory like word 2.1.
You also dont want to create 100% true map of Roman Empire(even when i compare yours map with yours cource map you mising a loth terittory) and you erase to many real roman provinces.
Well i want to help but its look that you want to create map like these,without all these things.
Im very disapointed,because i realy love history of roman empire,and now i understand why several atempt before yours drop in water,definitly because these big issue.

map with mistake and problems

Shot at 2007-06-27

[Guiscard]

We also have to take into account playability. Four big continents would create a pretty bad playing experience in my opinion. The best maps need a mix of large, small and medium continents that allow expansion and a good flow of play.

Firstly, no I don't want to create a huge World 2.0 type map. I don't enjoy playing such large maps too much so I don't want to make one. I want to make a reasonably sized, very playable and as accurate as possible Roman Empire map. To do this I have HAD to divide up some territories which did not have official divisions, else the some continents would be too small and also to merge some territories to avoid some getting too large. There is no point creating a Roman Empire map where continents are unbalanced and no-one enjoys playing it.

Do any of my more knowledgeable contributors have an opinion on this?

[Gwalchmai]

I think a few liberties are going to have to be taken here and there to make it work, such as the inclusion of Germania Magna to make up the continent, or the redrawing of boundaries slightly and splitting up or joining together provinces.

If Italia is put in as a single province, what happens to that continent? Italy needs to be divided for it to work and the names aren't entirely improbable. Augustus divided the peninsular into eleven regions, two of which were Liguria and Venetia (technically Venetia and Histria) so they work, and Sicily including the bottom portion from Italy isn't too much of a problem. You could have Italy whole, and include the three Alpine provinces in the continent but their position would unbalance it somewhat, and that's if you could fit them in. All three are tiny territories positioned along the Narbonensis-Liguria border.

Most of the other provinces Qwert has listed as missing will be found in the continents Achaia and Oriens so to include them it would mean adding several territories in those places, and again size would be an issue. Given that about seven or eight of them seem to be in Asia Minor, it would be interesting to know how many were actually proper provinces that have been condensed on your map, and how many were regions which came under the administration of a larger province in Asia Minor.

Spain won't work with three territories (five has been debated), and the two added don't seem unreasonable. The split of Britannia also seems fair enough. Cambria is added but was the Roman name for the area of Wales, and although the Superior/Inferior split didn't happen until the early third century, that's another liberty that seems to make sense in order to have Roman names.

The only really dodgy territories on this map at the moment in my opinion are Germania Magna, Armenia, Assyria and Mesopotamia but I think you can argue for each. Germania Magna, despite being only partially invaded for a brief period so far as I remember, is kind of needed to make up the continent of Germania, and the last three, although not held for very long, represent the Eastern part of the Empire at its largest under Trajan so perhaps ought be included for that reason.

[halim7]

Cool, but I would make Byzantium worth less.

[gimil]

that cities only worth one

[Qwert]

Well if he dont want to even try to create Great Roman empire map,then i will try,and these will be map when roman empire been in a peac of power(120ad)
First i must finish mine present project.

[Guiscard]

Well if he dont want to even try to create Great Roman empire map,then i will try,and these will be map when roman empire been in a peac of power(120ad)
First i must finish mine present project.

It IS a great Roman Empire map. It shows the Roman Empire at the peak of its expansion. Players can battle accross every territory once occupied by the Roman Empire within playable reason.

But of course... Attempt your own version if you wish Qwert. I'll look out for it in a couple of years.

[Qwert]

Guiscard



Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 2409
Location: Destroying All Lines
Posted: 28 Jun 2007 12:50 Post subject:

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qwert wrote:
Well if he dont want to even try to create Great Roman empire map,then i will try,and these will be map when roman empire been in a peac of power(120ad)
First i must finish mine present project.

It IS a great Roman Empire map. It shows the Roman Empire at the peak of its expansion. Players can battle accross every territory once occupied by the Roman Empire within playable reason.

But of course... Attempt your own version if you wish Qwert. I'll look out for it in a couple of years.
_________________

Soory but you are wrong,these not present real map of roman empire,you have huge mistake,and soon or later some others people will tell you same.