save act

[karel]

yep, seems to me like it's just another attempt by Republicans to stop people from voting - which am guessing somehow favours them...

Yeah, basically it does.

The Republicans are really good about whipping up outrage and anger, and angry people are more highly motivated to vote. When you raise the bar for voting, calm and placid people are more likely to say it isn't worth the effort. Angry people will still do whatever it takes. As voting gets more difficult, extremists and hotheads increase their representation, as more and more moderates just give up and walk away.

There are extremists and hotheads on both sides, of course; the Right has traditionally been a lot better at mobilizing them.

Asking for basic ID isn't a particularly onerous requirement. The reason for fighting it is not that it is, in itself, a big issue. Rather, when coupled with other nuisances (such as reducing the number of polling stations to make longer wait times) it is part of an overall drive to make voting more difficult.

and you all great about killing innocent americans, your party must be so pround and not give 2 sh its about it, blm your commie party loved these ass wipes, you love burning down buildings, trans crazy people now have killed 29 people,another thing your party is proud of, scamming money out of tax payer, another thing you all are proud about,innocent americans getting killed ny scum illegials, man you all so proud of many things but america, so get the fck out and never return

[karel]

only people this going to hurt are people who have lived at home with mom and dad, as they never had a job, if they had a job you have to show a dl, only ones this going to affect is trans as they dont know who the fck they are, when the commies come out and say its going to affect women, bs its not, its more lies from the left, and yes get rid of all the mail ins, dems dont like it cuz mail in is easy to fraud, and they losing the illegal vote so yes the dems shitting themselves00 so bad

[riskllama]

yep, seems to me like it's just another attempt by Republicans to stop people from voting - which am guessing somehow favours them...

Yeah, basically it does.

The Republicans are really good about whipping up outrage and anger, and angry people are more highly motivated to vote. When you raise the bar for voting, calm and placid people are more likely to say it isn't worth the effort. Angry people will still do whatever it takes. As voting gets more difficult, extremists and hotheads increase their representation, as more and more moderates just give up and walk away.

There are extremists and hotheads on both sides, of course; the Right has traditionally been a lot better at mobilizing them.

Asking for basic ID isn't a particularly onerous requirement. The reason for fighting it is not that it is, in itself, a big issue. Rather, when coupled with other nuisances (such as reducing the number of polling stations to make longer wait times) it is part of an overall drive to make voting more difficult.

and you all great about killing innocent americans, your party must be so pround and not give 2 sh its about it, blm your commie party loved these ass wipes, you love burning down buildings, trans crazy people now have killed 29 people,another thing your party is proud of, scamming money out of tax payer, another thing you all are proud about,innocent americans getting killed ny scum illegials, man you all so proud of many things but america, so get the fck out and never return

duk & I are from canada, you fucking idiot - anybody w/the reading comprehension of a 6th grader has easily deduced that for themselves by now. and yeah(can't speak for duk on this), don't worry - I can safely say that I will not be crossing the 49th again anytime soon, karel - as your country is basically a dumpster fire at this point - enjoy!

[Maxleod]

Gonna be honest, tl;dr, so dr, and I'm reluctant to partake in political bickering (seeing as it's not my country and I don't give a flying fck anyway).
But.
What's the problem with asking for an ID and making sure there's no fraud?
It's my understanding that both sides have accused the other side and been guilty of election fraud?

[karel]

cuz the commie left want the illegal alien votes

[mookiemcgee]

Gonna be honest, tl;dr, so dr, and I'm reluctant to partake in political bickering (seeing as it's not my country and I don't give a flying fck anyway).
But.
What's the problem with asking for an ID and making sure there's no fraud?
It's my understanding that both sides have accused the other side and been guilty of election fraud?

It's hard not to give you a tl/dr answer, but I'll try. First of all in the US, people have to register to vote before they go any actually vote. States decide their own rules for registering, with some national standards in place based on a 1993 law. All 50 states already require ID to register, and you must provide a social security number and an 'under penalty of perjury attestation'. These documents are crosschecked both via database and verified by a human. The social security system is pretty bulletproof in identifying who is/isn't a citizen, and the other ID provided is escentially a crosschecking tool to ensure you are the person who matches the social security name.

There is a separate conversation about being ID'd the day you go in person to vote. Many states do require ID here, some do not. I think this is what you question is kinda specifically about, and there are people on both sides in congress who are on the record saying they would vote for a bill that creates a national standard to require you scan a drivers license when you vote just to confirm it's you and you match the name that is registered. There are some on the left and right who are against it over a variety of reasons but they are the minority.

The SAVE ACT being debated does not address being ID the day you vote at all. It's ONLY about the registration process.

Where this gets hyper partisan is that this bill changes what is considered a valid ID to register to vote. Many Americans don't have passports and don't travel and are very used to using their drivers license as their primary form of ID anytime they get ID for anything (at the bank, when they questions/ID by police, to buy alcohol, to watch internet porn in Texas). This bill makes a big change where drivers licenses would no longer be considered a valid form of ID to Register to vote.

Anyway I tried to get to the root of it without being overly partisan... The right's argument is that illegal aliens are voting en masse, it's pretty easily provably wrong but obviously repeating the lie often enough works as attested by Karel in the above post. The center left position is that we already require ID and changing what ID is required to documents many americans don't current have makes it much harder to vote in 2026. It also puts a huge burden on states to re-register 80%+ of the people currently registered prior to their registration deadline (for some states it's 4-5 months away)using documents those voters may not even have (passport takes 4-6 weeks and costs $165). There is no center right position, and the far left position is 'in line' with the center left position on this issue.

You can play it out pretty easily, let's say a non-citizen wanted to try and vote under the current system... They would need to find photo ID that looks like them but contains someone elses name that matches a social security number of a citizen. They would also need for the actual person who that SS# belongs to NOT to vote or there would be 2 ballots for 1 person that the system would easily flag. All of this is further complicated by many states having a hybrid system where you can go in person OR vote by mail so the standards are different for being ID 'at the time of voting'.

Anyway this is now too long, and you probably didn't read it all and that why people using Karels argument will likely win. It's wrong but it's short and digestible and not bogged down with details or reality.

[Pack Rat]

Don't worry about karel. He's a paid democrat plant!

You guys actually believe that someone is that stupid? I think it took hard work and high intelligence to make a character like karel and play him as a dumb, fukn hick.

Well done karel!

[karel]

so your pary wants the illegial votes your the far lefties want the free cheap labor, 2 words for you fck you, no id dont vote simple as that, and dont tell me anymore bs about how its going to affect people, thats bs also, so keep drinking more jim jones kool aide

[jusplay4fun]

Gonna be honest, tl;dr, so dr, and I'm reluctant to partake in political bickering (seeing as it's not my country and I don't give a flying fck anyway).
But.
What's the problem with asking for an ID and making sure there's no fraud?
It's my understanding that both sides have accused the other side and been guilty of election fraud?

It's hard not to give you a tl/dr answer, but I'll try. First of all in the US, people have to register to vote before they go any actually vote. States decide their own rules for registering, with some national standards in place based on a 1993 law. All 50 states already require ID to register, and you must provide a social security number and an 'under penalty of perjury attestation'. These documents are crosschecked both via database and verified by a human. The social security system is pretty bulletproof in identifying who is/isn't a citizen, and the other ID provided is escentially a crosschecking tool to ensure you are the person who matches the social security name.

There is a separate conversation about being ID'd the day you go in person to vote. Many states do require ID here, some do not. I think this is what you question is kinda specifically about, and there are people on both sides in congress who are on the record saying they would vote for a bill that creates a national standard to require you scan a drivers license when you vote just to confirm it's you and you match the name that is registered. There are some on the left and right who are against it over a variety of reasons but they are the minority.

The SAVE ACT being debated does not address being ID the day you vote at all. It's ONLY about the registration process.

Where this gets hyper partisan is that this bill changes what is considered a valid ID to register to vote. Many Americans don't have passports and don't travel and are very used to using their drivers license as their primary form of ID anytime they get ID for anything (at the bank, when they questions/ID by police, to buy alcohol, to watch internet porn in Texas). This bill makes a big change where drivers licenses would no longer be considered a valid form of ID to Register to vote.

Anyway I tried to get to the root of it without being overly partisan... The right's argument is that illegal aliens are voting en masse, it's pretty easily provably wrong but obviously repeating the lie often enough works as attested by Karel in the above post. The center left position is that we already require ID and changing what ID is required to documents many americans don't current have makes it much harder to vote in 2026. It also puts a huge burden on states to re-register 80%+ of the people currently registered prior to their registration deadline (for some states it's 4-5 months away)using documents those voters may not even have (passport takes 4-6 weeks and costs $165). There is no center right position, and the far left position is 'in line' with the center left position on this issue.

You can play it out pretty easily, let's say a non-citizen wanted to try and vote under the current system... They would need to find photo ID that looks like them but contains someone elses name that matches a social security number of a citizen. They would also need for the actual person who that SS# belongs to NOT to vote or there would be 2 ballots for 1 person that the system would easily flag. All of this is further complicated by many states having a hybrid system where you can go in person OR vote by mail so the standards are different for being ID 'at the time of voting'.

Anyway this is now too long, and you probably didn't read it all and that why people using Karels argument will likely win. It's wrong but it's short and digestible and not bogged down with details or reality.

I am having trouble finding any documentation on (what seems to me to be) the ONLY valid point by Mookie, that REGISTRATION now becomes more difficult because of the need for a REAL ID Drivers License. Mookie says MOST states do NOT issue such. So first, I will challenge Mookie to PROVE his point. He does not CITE any source, but his post looks to me to be a CUT and Paste; may be IT AIN'T so, so I will first challenge Mookie to prove his point.

I cited one article already, and I will offer another here:
https://www.factcheck.org/2025/02/will- ... g-to-vote/
I have read several other articles on this matter and many seem overly partisan and do not offer what I consider valid points.

The article cited above (factcheck) does not cite the issue as Mookie alleges. AND, btw, I DID READ NEARLY ALL of Mookies's posts on this matter and I think this allegation of the REAL ID is his ONLY real point of contention to the SAVE ACT. Mookie, will you answer my questions on this matter? I have tried to understand your point for the past week and cannot find anything to support your allegation(s). Thanks.

[mookiemcgee]

I am having trouble finding any documentation on (what seems to me to be) the ONLY valid point by Mookie, that REGISTRATION now becomes more difficult because of the need for a REAL ID Drivers License. Mookie says MOST states do NOT issue such. So first, I will challenge Mookie to PROVE his point. He does not CITE any source, but his post looks to me to be a CUT and Paste; may be IT AIN'T so, so I will first challenge Mookie to prove his point.

No, I am not saying that registering under this bill will require Real ID Driver License.

I'm saying even Real ID DL won't be accepted. The language of this bill requires the ID used for registration to be a 'proof of citizenship' document.

A Drivers License is proof of ID
A REAL ID Drivers License is proof of ID and proof of residency/status, but it is NOT proof of citizenship.
Michigan, Minnesota, New York, Vermont, and Washington offer drivers licenses that prove US citizenship, the other 45 states do not.

https://www.dhs.gov/enhanced-drivers-li ... t-are-they
https://www.rockthevote.org/explainers/the-save-act/

In order to register to vote under this bill, you would need to prove citizenship. Unless you are in one of the 5 states above that means passport/birth certificate/military ID, nothing else. You would also need a social security number but that is also not proof of citizenship, it's proof of status (you are here legally and have the right to work)

And again, I'm not saying changes that standardize proving citizenship rather that 'penalty of perjury attestation' with multiple forms of ID standard that exists now in many states is a bad for the country thing long term. But it will absolutely destroy turnout (likely in both parties) in fall 2026 as basically anyone that wants to vote this fall has to dig up their birth certificate, or pay to get a passport which isn't cheap. Then they have to find time to go IN PERSON during gov't office hours to the register prior to the end of the registration period their states have. The only people that will vote this year in high percentages are going to be retirees and the rich, and it's going to be the most extremist believers on both sides. You are now asking people to take time of work so they can go prove they should be allowed to vote, and then holding the election on a Tuesday and barring mail in so millions of working americans will have to leave work again to go vote at a polling station trump has promised will be guarded by masked ICE agents with automatic weapons...but sure JP, none of this is about stealing the 2026 election, go ahead an believe that if you want.

As far as your link to the fact checker about it being harder for married women, I don't think they are in some special situation. They will need a passport/military ID, either on it's own is fine. Alternatively they need a birth certificate and a marriage certificate, and if they can find the birth certificate they can almost certainly track down their marriage certificate (my wife keeps hers in same place) so it doesn't seem like it's really that much harder for married women.

[jonesthecurl]

Basically, the proposed rules make it harder to vote. Given that the evidence of fraudulent voting is missing, this is not necessary

[jusplay4fun]

Thanks, Mookie. You and Jonesy make VALID Points.

[mookiemcgee]

Thanks, Mookie. You and Jonesy make VALID Points.

Cheers and thanks for the respectful reply

[jusplay4fun]

Thanks, Mookie. You and Jonesy make VALID Points.

Cheers and thanks for the respectful reply

Your post deserve that, Mookie, and Jonesy, too. And you are welcome.

[riskllama]

this is bad...

[Pack Rat]

Rightwingers don't trust Big Brother government, unless they have a rightwing despot in control.

[jusplay4fun]

And what about the LLC crowd, the Leftist Liberal Crazies, like Biden and Kamala (along with Newsom, Walz, Ellison, and Frey).

Trump is better than SLEEPY and FEEBLE Old Joe on almost any day of the year. I continue to say this Duk, since BIDEN did almost nothing, except sign a few Executive Orders and Day One and HAD little idea WHAT he was signing. And issue LOTS of pardons, especially for his Family, such as Hunter the LOSER Biden. Oh, he FELL several times. That made headlines. He tried to shake hands with someone NOT there. THAT is why I keep attacking BIDEN, Duk. And why do I continue to rant against Biden? (about 1% of time compared to a RAT about Epstein, btw). Because the FOOL wanted TO RUN AGAIN in 2024 and his handlers and enablers, especially JILL, wanted him to "run" again as a FIGUREHEAD while they ripped off the Government of the US and take bribes from OTHER nations and use the Loser Hunter as their Bagman. THAT is why, Duk.

Kamala is almost as bad and would have carried out similar policies and had accomplished NOTHING. How many convention votes did she secure in 2020? As I recall, ZERO. What did she do before 2024? She attacked companies in CA as AG for something (as I best recall, it was over Price Gouging; that is a BIG ZERO). Someone tell me what she accomplished as CA AG, US Senator, and VP of the US. I say she acomplished making "Word Salad" only; Kamala is defined by Word Salad. PERIOD.

What did she do as border Czar under Biden? She made ONE trip to 2 Central Am nations and said more US investments are needed in the region to create more good jobs. That is IT. (BTW: the same is TRUE for many American Cities, like Wash., D.C., Chicago, Baltimore, Memphis, etc, ALL cities controlled by DEMS, some even LLC Dems.)

Kamala is and was an Affirmative Action HIRE. PERIOD.

Bastante para Hoy aqui.

[Pack Rat]

Biden was handed a mediocre economy and turned it into a growing economy. Under his leadership NATO became stronger.

Trump inherited a strong economy and now with oil/gas pricing surging, Wall Street in chaos and out alliances falling apart.

[Dukasaur]

Trump is better than SLEEPY and FEEBLE Old Joe on almost any day of the year. I continue to say this Duk, since BIDEN did almost nothing, except sign a few Executive Orders and Day One and HAD little idea WHAT he was signing. And issue LOTS of pardons, especially for his Family, such as Hunter the LOSER Biden. Oh, he FELL several times. That made headlines. He tried to shake hands with someone NOT there. THAT is why I keep attacking BIDEN, Duk. And why do I continue to rant against Biden? (about 1% of time compared to a RAT about Epstein, btw). Because the FOOL wanted TO RUN AGAIN in 2024 and his handlers and enablers, especially JILL, wanted him to "run" again as a FIGUREHEAD while they ripped off the Government of the US and take bribes from OTHER nations and use the Loser Hunter as their Bagman. THAT is why, Duk.

We've rehashed this enough times. I don't know why I'm bothering to reply, except that you addressed me personally.

Biden was mediocre, it's true. But he was not evil. A good man with mediocre abilities is better than an evil man, any day of the week.

Biden was not a complete failure. He was the first president since Eisenhower to pay serious attention to the problems of America's crumbling infrastructure. When you say he did nothing except sign executive orders, I think you forget huge achievements like pushing through the Infrastructure Act.

Biden brought the fiscal situation under control after the madness of the Trump v1 years. Even while spending new money on things that needed it, he slowed down the growth of the deficit from Trump v1.

He restored America's reputation internationally as a civilized member of the international community, unlike Trump who's only actions have been to make America universally hated as a bully.

He restored civility to the refugee process. I don't know what you have to say about this. You seem to blow hot and cold. One day you're agreeing with me that most immigrants are good hard-working people. Next day you're back to cheering for ICE while they go around cracking skulls and throwing immigrants into concentration camps. I never know whether you will come out with Jekyll or Hyde on any particular day, so I try not to get aroused by either.

I think Biden was indispensible in keeping Ukraine alive for the last four years. If he hadn't, by now the Ukraine war would have been a memory, and Putin would have continued on his next project, invading Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia. I think the whole world owes Biden a huge debt of gratitude for keeping the Red Army stalled fifty miles from the Dnieper, when it might instead be once again threatening the Vistula.

Yes, in the end, he committed a colossal sin of hubris in thinking he could run again, when it was objectively obvious that he didn't have it any more. That was a tragic mistake. But it is the human condition, that good men do make terrible mistakes.

We've had this discussion a hundred times, and I'm tired of it. You've never addressed the central point: that a well-intentioned man with mediocre abilities is still a whole world better than a man whose intentions are evil, a man who takes delight in kicking people when they're down, whose entire fortune has been built on theft and grift, a man who tears up agreements in a heartbeat if he thinks he might gain some trivial advantage over someone else.

[jusplay4fun]

I did address the central point: Biden was a FAILURE.

I will give you and thus Biden some credit; he did a few things right. BUT he will be remembered as a FAILURE, in particular because

1) he pardoned his son for (what I consider to be) OBVIOUS Crimes that enriched himself and the rest of the Biden Family;

2) that he had, what you admit is the HUBRIS, intended to RUN again for an OFFICE he was incapable of meeting its duties, and that was TRUE in 2020 AND 2024;

3) had many failed policies, including his OPEN Borders and his Bidenomics.

Further, the credit you give him for some of his policies, such as infrastructure, is not enough to negate the damage he did as President, imo. (YES, I know we have different opinions here Duk.) He was in poor mental facilities in 2020, and his attempt to paint himself as a kindly grandfather ready to keep a steady hand on the steering Wheel of the Ship of State was ALREADY a SHAKY hand in 2021 when he took the Oath of Office. He was that far gone in 2020 when he should NOT have RUN and that FACT was HIDDEN by Biden and his handlers and enablers AND the Liberal Media. I am not sure you admit WHEN he lost it. You admit that

it was objectively obvious that he didn't have it any more

I contend that he did not have it as early as 2020. THAT is the BIGGER sin, Duk, the failure to admit how bad off he was both mentally and physically in 2020. He campaigned mostly by HIDING in his basement, and in HIDING and Claiming COVID concerns, THAT he HID the TRUTH of his already diminished capacities from the American people and the Voters in 2020. It was apparent to me of his deficiencies as early as 2020, and his people AND MOST of the Liberal Media were willing to go along with that HOAX. Prehaps to be kind, the Liberal Media did not intentionally hide the Truth, but they DID NOTHING to learn the Truth. Biden had AMOST ZERO Press conferences and rarely answered questions of the Press during his Presidency, totally UNLIKE Trump here and NOW. And where there was an interview or Press Conference, they were carefully orchestrated to avoid making HIM look bad and to avoid THE TRUTH, that he was TOO Old and Feeble, both Mentally and Physically. That was blatantly obvious to me, when on Day One, signing Executive Orders, that he muttered to himself, and was picked up on a microphone "what am I signing here?"

Even Foreign Leaders at G7 and at other similar world leader events would watch OUT for Biden, including King (or perhaps then Prince) Charles and others, when Biden would wander off from the Group at a Photo Opp for the ENTIRE Group and also try to shake hands with people NOT there. HE WAS THAT BAD OFF, and the Liberal Media and his close inner circle of enablers and handlers IGNORED his continued decline.

THAT is why rail against Biden, Duk. His accomplishments, as you see them, are MINOR. I think much of those things would have happened WITHOUT Biden.

and

He restored civility to the refugee process

REALLY? Do you mean he made a TOTAL MESS of the with his open borders and allowing anyone, including Criminals, to enter?? and made NO effort to find and deport the criminals amongst them?? I am for ICE finding and deporting criminals among the illegal aliens. And most immigrants are good folks. See Duk, you see all IMMIGRANTS as a homogenous MASS. I can see the good and evil amongst them; that is where we differ, it seems to me. You are TOO narrowly focused, and too myopic on this issue. It is, for you, all or nothing. I can see both sides of the same coin. Can you, Duk??

Again, my Central Point is that Biden SHOULD NOT have run for POTUS in 2020, and that is and has been ignored by you and many others. What you said was a decline was, from the start in 2021, imo, WAS ALREADY A DECLINE from a point TOO FAR and TOO LOW mentally and physically for TOO important a job.

The preceived weaknesses of Biden led China and Iran and North Korea to do more evil; they ALSO gave Putin the "Green Light" to invade Ukraine, so Biden's actions there to attempt to REVERSE the FAILED actions to AVOID the Land grab done by Putin under Biden (the Donbas and more) and under Obama (Crimea). Trump has had to respond to the MESS basically created by (or, again, to be kind, continued under) Biden's FAILED foreign Policies.

Civility seems to be a major issue for you, but civility has allowed some Allies to avoid their responsibility to even PAY their fair share of military deterence. And you are okay with civility if it allows you or some nations to avoid PAYING for and supporting the deterence of someone like Putin. Hey, as long as that nation pays its share, I can afford NOT to pay my share. That is partly why I support Trump to call out nations for their lack of RESPONSIBILITY HERE. Their RESPONSIBILITY should not be limited to their Leader making sure OUR Leader is not making a fool of himself during a photo shoot and wandering off because he is MENTALLY Feeble.

Yes, Trump is an EGOTIST and YES, Trump is ANNOYING, and yes, he is RUDE to long standing ALLIES in Canada and Europe. He has an abrasive STYLE. NO Doubt. The Central Question will be "What is the outcome of his actions and policies?" after Trump leaves Office. That remains to be seen and I feel better about this country with Trump at the helm vs. Biden or Kamala. PERIOD.

Unless you want to reply, Duk, this will LIKELY be the LAST TIME I mention the Failed Biden Presidency. I will ignore the pet rat if he replies here; Mookie is almost as bad (as he NOW resorts to spamming pictures). A Llama shrug is not worth a reply either.

[riskllama]

LOL. totally WONT be the last time you reply, jp... . worst part is you probly typed that w/a straight face too, I bet.

*shrugs*

[riskllama]

LOL. totally WONT be the last time you reply, jp... . worst part is you probly typed that w/a straight face too, I'd wager.

*shrugs*

[jusplay4fun]

Wow...A llama DOUBLE and both say nearly the SAME. What is the score for that??

-2,222 for the joyless llama; perhaps it should be -22,222 **SHRUGS**

[riskllama]

lol, told ya! you are so fucking easy to troll, jp...

[jusplay4fun]

lol, told ya! you are so fucking easy to troll, jp...

and YEAH, that is SUCH a BIG thing to BRAG about. You know, you are JOYLESS IF that is what you do and what you BRAG about.

I just completed games for my Clan for CL17 and did CC16 Last WEEKEND. That took me some 8-10 hours for each endeavor, so your LITTLE DOUBLE post and SHRUGS count as SQUAT in my book. Your posts are now at the level of self-loathing pack rat: IN THE Sewer that runs through a DUNG Heap. And giving the matter more thought: YOU TOO are self-loathing. What a menagerie: self-loathing llama and rat. I should charge admission. NAH, I would LOSE money as NO one would want to see you two LOSERS.

Have FUN TROLLING, you joyless TROLL. LOSER Llama, another LLL