www.skyandtelescope.org copy pastes.

[jusplay4fun]

The title of this needs to be changed.

Something like....

"Random scripture copy/pastes & continuous arguments about what level climate change zealot are you & If you choose God, which God do you prefer and why?"

That is a bit too lengthy, don't you think, Williams?

I am trying part of your suggestion, in responding to Apatheist.

There clearly has been a shift of topics, as often happens. We are far from the original title:

Re: Astronomy!
Post by 2dimes » Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:11 am

Ok, but did they let you look at Saturns rings? <---not a euphemism.

and, this SAME thread:

Re: Astronomy!
Post by jusplay4fun » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:11 pm
(...)

Speaking of Telescopes, the subject that got this thread going, I got to see the rings of Saturn and the 4 Galilean moons through two different telescopes when the Richmond (VA) Astronomical Society set up three of them about 10 years ago for a public viewing. TO see with my own eyes using a good size telescope (magnification was maybe 50x or so; I cannot recall the exact #) those things described by Galileo in his book The Starry Messenger WAS AWESOME. BTW: the third telescope allowed the use to "lock into" a celestial object by correcting for the earth's rotation. Ten years ago (or so), when smart phones were getting started, this was FANTASTIC. With it, the owner locked into a distant nebula, which was "fuzzy" and does not have historical significance, at least not to me.

[Apatheist]

It also crossed my mind that if you turned up on Judgement day and there was Odin - saying that since you didn't believe in him or die with sword in hand, you weren't going to be allowed into Asgard, Valhalla, Ragnarok or any of the other nice realms, and go straight to Náströnd - wouldn't you feel that it was a bit unfair?

You do realize that almost NO ONE follows Odin, Thor, and the rest, unless you are a dead viking or a comic book fan. They were replaced by what? The Lutheran brand, mostly, it seems.

But who is to say that replacing them was the right thing to do? Maybe that was actually the right religion to follow, and everyone before and since has been wrong.
If no-one follows them now, does that mean they never existed? Are you saying people were wrong to believe in them? Were they just a human invention? If so, take a step back and try to be objective - why would your beliefs be any more credible or have any more validity than those who believed in the Norse gods?

[jusplay4fun]

It also crossed my mind that if you turned up on Judgement day and there was Odin - saying that since you didn't believe in him or die with sword in hand, you weren't going to be allowed into Asgard, Valhalla, Ragnarok or any of the other nice realms, and go straight to Náströnd - wouldn't you feel that it was a bit unfair?

You do realize that almost NO ONE follows Odin, Thor, and the rest, unless you are a dead viking or a comic book fan. They were replaced by what? The Lutheran brand, mostly, it seems.

But who is to say that replacing them was the right thing to do? Maybe that was actually the right religion to follow, and everyone before and since has been wrong.
If no-one follows them now, does that mean they never existed? Are you saying people were wrong to believe in them? Were they just a human invention? If so, take a step back and try to be objective - why would your beliefs be any more credible or have any more validity than those who believed in the Norse gods?

We can play "what if" from here to Eternity. The Point is that that Religion is GONE. It is a moot point you are discussing. The fact that you raise that point shows it is not a valid point of discussion.

Do you really ask those questions? Mere silliness.

If the Norse religion WERE the ONE, why does almost NO ONE now offer sacrifice to Odin? That in itself is prima facia.

[jonesthecurl]

Perhaps the Church of God the Utterly Indifferent has it right:

There is an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient deity that created billions of galaxies, each containing billions of stars, many of which have planets.

God alone knows (literally) how many of those contain, have contained, or will contain billions of sentient creatures.

The only real blasphemy is to say 'Thank God', to make the egotistical and ludicrous assumption that this deity considers an insignificant mote of dust like yourself is in some way special.

[Apatheist]

It also crossed my mind that if you turned up on Judgement day and there was Odin - saying that since you didn't believe in him or die with sword in hand, you weren't going to be allowed into Asgard, Valhalla, Ragnarok or any of the other nice realms, and go straight to Náströnd - wouldn't you feel that it was a bit unfair?

You do realize that almost NO ONE follows Odin, Thor, and the rest, unless you are a dead viking or a comic book fan. They were replaced by what? The Lutheran brand, mostly, it seems.

But who is to say that replacing them was the right thing to do? Maybe that was actually the right religion to follow, and everyone before and since has been wrong.
If no-one follows them now, does that mean they never existed? Are you saying people were wrong to believe in them? Were they just a human invention? If so, take a step back and try to be objective - why would your beliefs be any more credible or have any more validity than those who believed in the Norse gods?

We can play "what if" from here to Eternity. The Point is that that Religion is GONE. It is a moot point you are discussing. The fact that you raise that point shows it is not a valid point of discussion.

Do you really ask those questions? Mere silliness.

If the Norse religion WERE the ONE, why does almost NO ONE now offer sacrifice to Odin? That in itself is prima facia.

You are missing the fundamental point. If religions can GO...were they valid at all? If that's the case with the Norse gods, why should it not be the case with yours?

[jusplay4fun]

It also crossed my mind that if you turned up on Judgement day and there was Odin - saying that since you didn't believe in him or die with sword in hand, you weren't going to be allowed into Asgard, Valhalla, Ragnarok or any of the other nice realms, and go straight to Náströnd - wouldn't you feel that it was a bit unfair?

You do realize that almost NO ONE follows Odin, Thor, and the rest, unless you are a dead viking or a comic book fan. They were replaced by what? The Lutheran brand, mostly, it seems.

But who is to say that replacing them was the right thing to do? Maybe that was actually the right religion to follow, and everyone before and since has been wrong.
If no-one follows them now, does that mean they never existed? Are you saying people were wrong to believe in them? Were they just a human invention? If so, take a step back and try to be objective - why would your beliefs be any more credible or have any more validity than those who believed in the Norse gods?

We can play "what if" from here to Eternity. The Point is that that Religion is GONE. It is a moot point you are discussing. The fact that you raise that point shows it is not a valid point of discussion.

Do you really ask those questions? Mere silliness.

If the Norse religion WERE the ONE, why does almost NO ONE now offer sacrifice to Odin? That in itself is prima facia.

You are missing the fundamental point. If religions can GO...were they valid at all? If that's the case with the Norse gods, why should it not be the case with yours?

NO, I did NOT miss your point; it is simply not valid. Even your concomittant point is not valid.

I will be with you always, even until the end of the world.

for those who want to know: Matthew 28:20, CEV

In case you missed MY point, Christianity is still here. Point #2, the Norse religion was replaced by Christianity. Prima Facia.

[Apatheist]

You are blinkered I'm afraid. You choose not to refute my point, but you're not being objective.
Many religions have come and gone.
Christianity is still here - for now. When it gets replaced, what will that say about it? That it was never right in the first place?
Hinduism, Sikhism, Islam, Buddhism, Judaism etc etc are all still here at the moment. So is Scientology. Does that make them right too?
However you dismiss other religions can equally apply to yours, and how you defend yours can equally apply to theirs, you either can't or won't see the possibility.
The fact that a religion has gone proves that it was man-made, and that applies to all of them. QED.

[jusplay4fun]

And so your point about Norse religion is, by your admission in your previous post, ALL WRONG, right Apatheist? So be it, or, Amen, Amen.

Apatheist posted:

You are missing the fundamental point. If religions can GO...were they valid at all? If that's the case with the Norse gods, why should it not be the case with yours?

and, also by Apatheist:

why would your beliefs be any more credible or have any more validity than those who believed in the Norse gods?

You used the wrong analogy, and now want to use

Hinduism, Sikhism, Islam, Buddhism, Judaism etc etc

to cover your mistake. Amen, AMEN

Now the FACT that the followers of the Norse gods gave it ALL UP to accept Christianity is worth consideration, despite your attempt to be so dismissive of its significance. I will reiterate how profound that is and remind you of what that says and again say it is prima facia proof of the significance of this HUGE shift for a significant population.

The mere acceptance by the population of the Roman Empire also is proof of the fundamental TRUTHS offered by Christianity, despite massive state sponsored persecution.

And I will add that the TOLERANCE preached by Christianity allowed Science to flourish. I think that the Muslims also allowed Science and ITS pursuits of TRUTHS is rather unusual among MOST of the World's religions. That may be true of MORE Faiths, but I do not know enough about them to offer a similar assessement for them (specifically: Hinduism, Sikhism, & Buddhism). Taoism and Confusianism (that you grouped as etc etc) are also rather tolerant of others it seems to me, but I am NOT sure.

It seems to me that most of today's major religions are rather tolerant of other Faiths, and that includes Tolerance for Science.

ALSO: Science can be viewed as a Humanist Religion, depending on definitions, it seems to me. Science has several fundamental tenets that cannot be PROVEN in an intellectual way, a fundamental notion that you ALSO ignore, Apatheist.

[Apatheist]

And so your point about Norse religion is, by your admission in your previous post, ALL WRONG, right Apatheist? So be it, or, Amen, Amen.

Apatheist posted:

You are missing the fundamental point. If religions can GO...were they valid at all? If that's the case with the Norse gods, why should it not be the case with yours?

and, also by Apatheist:

why would your beliefs be any more credible or have any more validity than those who believed in the Norse gods?

You used the wrong analogy, and now want to use

Hinduism, Sikhism, Islam, Buddhism, Judaism etc etc

to cover your mistake. Amen, AMEN

Now the FACT that the followers of the Norse gods gave it ALL UP to accept Christianity is worth consideration, despite your attempt to be so dismissive of its signficance. I will reiterate how profound that is and remind you of what that says and again say it is prima facia proof of the significance of this HUGE shift for a signficant population.

The mere acceptance by the population of the Roman Empire also is proof of the fundamental TRUTHS offered by Christianity, despite massive state sponsored persecution.

And I will add that the TOLERANCE preached by Christianity allowed Science to flourish. I think that the Muslims also allowed Science and ITS pursuits of TRUTHS is rather unusual among MOST of the World's religions. That may be true of MORE Faiths, but I do not know enough about them to offer a similar assessement for them (specifically: Hinduism, Sikhism, & Buddhism). Taoism and Confusianism (that you grouped as etc etc) are also rather tolerant of others it seems to me, but I am NOT sure.

It seems to me that most of today's major religions are rather tolerant of other Faiths, and that includes Tolerance for Science.

ALSO: Science can be viewed as a Humanist Religion, depending on definitions, it seems to me. Science has several fundamental tenets that cannot be PROVEN in an intellectual way, a fundamental notion that you ALSO ignore, Apatheist.

I can at least spell significance
I haven't contradicted myself at all. I've just shown that no religion is logically supportable.
I doubt you'll ever accept this, since you only seem able to find "errors" where there aren't any, but let's try it this way:

Just because people believe in Christianity, it doesn't make it right - any more than people believing in other religions makes, or made, them right, which is my main point that you aren't able to acknowledge. Even if the whole world believed it, that's no proof that it's the correct explanation of life, the universe and everything.
Lots of people voted for Donald Trump, remember - twice.
I just picked Norse as an example, but it could equally apply to Greeks, Romans, Egyptians and all the others.
The fact that lots of people DON'T believe any given religion is an equally strong suggestion that it's not the truth, by your logic.

I suspect people move toward religions that have fewer demands and impositions on them - for example why Lutheran Protestantism took the place of Catholicism in England. Less to do, lighter punishment if you didn't behave, no confessions. The simple people went for something simpler and easier, not because it was necessarily better or truer - they would have not had a clue if it was correct or not. It was just easier to live with.
I acknowledge that Science has theories and conjectures that cannot be proven, yet. Not sure why you brought up science though - I only mentioned Scientology, which is a long way from the same thing (Scientologists believe you are not your body or your mind; you are an immortal soul known as a thetan that inhabits and animates mortal bodies. Thetans are believed to have lived through countless past lives across the universe over trillions of years).

PS: There are more Sunni Muslims (approx 1.8 billion) than there are Roman Catholics (1.4 billion), and almost thrice as many as Protestants (637 million). Following your logic, since that's the most widely believed faith, then I guess that must be the right one that we should all be following.

[jusplay4fun]

So by your logic, Apatheist, Christianity > Muslims; thus, just pick one Christian faith, any one of them will be fine.

and more of your logic, faulty and otherwise:

Apatheist said

The fact that a religion has gone proves that it was man-made, and that applies to all of them. QED.

That is simply BAD Logic, Apatheist.

False; because the Norse religion is basically gone does not apply to Christanity or the Muslim faith or to Hinduism. One instance does NOT prove that it applies to each and every member of the set. Because one person here uses bad or zero logic does not mean everyone who posts here lacks logic. Because one person who can use logic does not mean that ALL persons posting here use logic or coherence or complete sentences, for that matter.

More faulty Apatheist logic; I misspell the word ONCE in a paragraph, BUT spell it correctly in the SAME paragraph is NOT proof that I do NOT know how to spell the word (quite the contrary, to be frank):

I previously posted:

Now the FACT that the followers of the Norse gods gave it ALL UP to accept Christianity is worth consideration, despite your attempt to be so dismissive of its signficance. I will reiterate how profound that is and remind you of what that says and again say it is prima facia proof of the significance of this HUGE shift for a signficant [sic] population.

[Apatheist]

I'm afraid your logic is faulty, JP.
There is a legal tenet that if someone is shown to be lying in one part of their evidence, it calls into question the veracity of their entire testimony.
Religious people, claiming to get their knowledge directly from a god, claimed that the sun orbited the earth. Since we now know it doesn't, this for me calls into question any other claims about what's going on, including all the origin myths.
Showing that at least one religion is man-made calls into question all the others and undermines their claims to be real.
Believe what you will. I choose not to.

However, back to the topic of the thread: however it got here, and for whatever reason, the universe has some spectacular and awe-inspiring sights, and we're very lucky to be among the first creatures to be able to see them in so much detail and glory. Please continue to post the amazing shots that our technology is now able to deliver.

[Apatheist]

So by your logic, Apatheist, Christianity > Muslims; thus, just pick one Christian faith, any one of them will be fine.

Not sure what happened to this post.
Anyway, my point was that the single biggest sect (Sunni Muslims) is bigger than the single biggest sect of Christianity (Roman Catholic).
Add them all together, then sure, there are more Christians than Muslims, but there are yet more who don't believe Christianity. Putting the different flavours together isn't necessarily valid, or a good idea.

As a natural pessimist, I prefer to believe there is no afterlife, then find out there is one, rather than spend my whole life believing in something, only to find out I was wrong.
Each to their own.

[DirtyDishSoap]

Religion is holding us back as a species and has done little to better ourselves.