diplomacy, tactics and poor players

[DiM]

i have an extensive experience with risk as i've been playing it for 10 years but sometimes real life cardboard risk does not resemble CC.
the main reason is that in real life you can see the people you can talk to them and it's like real poker where you can guess their next move just by looking at them.

in real life i've had quite some successes on the risk board all because of diplomacy but here people just don't read the game chat or they are so stupid they can't tell when they're doing the wrong thing despite someone telling them.

throughout my CC games i've encountered the 3 player situation numerous times. and normally when a player is very strong the other 2 silently agree to bring him down and even the game. but i don't know why (maybe my name maybe the colour of my armies or some strange obscure reason makes people target me.


here is the most usual set-up.
i have 50 troops and a bonus of 8
player 2 has 30 troops and a bonus of 5
player 3 has 80 troops and a bonus of 15-20.

i try and lower #3 bonus and maybe take him down to 10. then #2 comes and takes my bonus. and then it all goes to hell.
#3 gets his bonus back
i take back my bonus and then #2 breaks it again. #3 grows stronger
i again take my bonus back but i don't have the power to push forward and break #3. i ask #2 to stop attacking me or we'll both lose. #2 ignores me and breaks my bonus again. #3 keeps quiet and takes 1 more terit while he uses his massive bonus to further strengthen his position.
once again i use my troops to get back my bonus and again i point out in chat that #2 is giving the game to #3. again #2 breaks my bonus. then #3 takes #2 out uses his cards and takes me out and wins the game.

first thing that comes to mind is multi or secret alliance. not the case.

then several things come to mind. maybe #2 realized he has no chance so he just wanted to minimize his loss by giving the game to the highest ranked player thus losing the least points. not the case again because player 3 was 4-500 points behind our scores.

then i thought he's just a poor player but his 1500 score and his admirative feedbacks tell me that's not the case.

then why do some players decide to attack the middle guy and give the game to another player?

the reason i'm asking this is because in my almost 100 games this has happened to me 10-15 times. but not even once was i in a game where i just sit back and the others stupidly fight eachother until i have an easy win. not even once. but when i gather even 1 troop more then the next player somebody says in chat: hey look DiM has the most troops let's kill him. and all of a sudden everybody gangs up on me.

i was in a game where i had ~60 troops and a bonus of just 5 plus i had only one card. there were 5 players. numbers 2 3 and 4 had like 30 troops and number 5 had 2 troops less than me. but he had a 15 bonus and 5 cards. then #5 said i'm getting the strongest and they should bang me. obviously each of the other players attacked me. by the time it was #5's turn i was down to ~30 troops and the other players were around the same values as before (30). all this happened even after i clearly pointed he has just 2 troops less than me, 5 cards and surely a set plus a whopping 15 bonus 3 times larger than mine. still they attacked. after the first guy hit me and i lost ~10 troops plus i was down to just 3 bonus. i pointed again i have a weak bonus and fewer troops and cards than #5. they still attacked me.
and it was #5's turn. he got his big bonus and turned a mixed set and further attacked me. but he did some mistakes and i was left with 3 troops because he did not plan his attacks carefully. he ended his turn having ~60-70 troops and a bonus of 18 i think.

i was sure i was going to be killed quick by #2 so i attacked to get a card and help him get more cards from killing me. i had rotten dice and was down to 3 troops in 2 terits. then #2 #3 and #4 completely ignored the chance to kill me and get 2 cards and also completely ignored player 5. instead they just battled themselves waisting even more troops. then #5 came took me out changed cards and won the game. how is this possible? how can someone be so stupid? and again i'm not talking about players with 500 points or about noobs. i'm talking about players with 1200-1800 points.

and all this leads to my question. what should i do when i see someone idiotically attacks me and gives away the game to another player?
so far i've put them on ignore but it seems there are so many of them i can't get rid of them.

[gimil]

Fight it out to the end . . . help the highest rank palyer win reduceing your lose . . . put them on your ignore list . .. play team games . . .

but most of all DiM . . . Deal with yuor horrible luck

[DiM]

it just happened again. i had 38 troops and bonus 6 player 2 had 97 and bonus 21 and player 3 had 89 and 13 bonus. what do you think he did? he attacked me. not to kill me and get the cards. he just took 3 of my terits to lower my bonus by 1. smart tactic.

[DiM]

Fight it out to the end . . . help the highest rank palyer win reduceing your lose . . . put them on your ignore list . .. play team games . . .

but most of all DiM . . . Deal with yuor horrible luck

i don't really care about the score so i'll never go and suicide on somebody just to let the highest ranked win.

i always fight to the end even when i'm down to a few troops. i fight for me not for anybody.

but i'm really pissed to strategize and plan and bite my nails and attack carefully just to see an idiot crash his troops into mine and give the other player the game.

and my main concern is why is this happening to me? i'm always polite in chat i always try to help people if they ask something. and then somebody comes and calls everybody an idiot for not attacking me and instead of them killing the one that insulted them, they attack me.

[gimil]

nice guys finish last

[Aries]

nice guys finish last

I'm nice, and I'm doin' pretty well

[Coleman]

Advice 1
You guys really need to learn how to play the noobs. I have a cairns game where I'm dominating and players are still attacking another person because he 'was' dominating.

With noobs you need to hit second place and hang out there and pretend to be their friends against the top player until it's too late for them to do anything about their mistake.

Of course with my luck one of them will read this and I'll have to contend with everyone now. Although I think it's hit the too late point with the game in question.

Advice 2
ANYWAY! If you never try to screw with people in the game chat then you will get burned and I've played with DiM, he doesn't talk enough to save himself when he needs to. You can't expect people to just know someone else is winning every time, you have to try and point it out without sounding like a complete jerk.

Advice 3
If you are the winning player and everyone is ganging up on you then your only hope is to target just one of them at a time. It helps more if you've been slow playing it and aren't using a steam rolling strategy, because it will be harder for them to stop you if you have 8 or 10 all over the place versus 1's everywhere and 60 in a single territory.

Of course I'm just a Sergeant, but my win percentage is growing when I remind myself of these things.

[Coleman]

and my main concern is why is this happening to me? i'm always polite in chat i always try to help people if they ask something. and then somebody comes and calls everybody an idiot for not attacking me and instead of them killing the one that insulted them, they attack me.

See Advice 1. You're making the mistake of assuming most players are rational. It just isn't true. People are sheep, be a wolf.

[DiM]

Advice 1
You guys really need to learn how to play the noobs. I have a cairns game where I'm dominating and players are still attacking another person because he 'was' dominating.

With noobs you need to hit second place and hang out there and pretend to be their friends against the top player until it's too late for them to do anything about their mistake.

Of course with my luck one of them will read this and I'll have to contend with everyone now. Although I think it's hit the too late point with the game in question.

well look at my post i've seen people with 1800 points play like this. i don't play many noobs. in fact if you look at my games i have 2 privates 4 cooks and 1 cadet and 3 recruits. that's 10 players from 92 total.
and the vast majority are sergeants and above.

Advice 2
ANYWAY! If you never try to screw with people in the game chat then you will get burned and I've played with DiM, he doesn't talk enough to save himself when he needs to. You can't expect people to just know someone else is winning every time, you have to try and point it out without sounding like a complete jerk.

i'me very talkative in chat but i'm kinda reluctant to point other players that somebody is winning unless we act together. i don't do it as often as i should because it has happened to make the others nervous and suicide on me for daring to give advices.

this is a typical chat:

me and another guy had ~50 troops and another player had ~100. so i told the other weak player we should collaborate to bring down the strong guy:

DiM: yep very interesting indeed. now it seems **** is the top dog around. he went from having the least troops to having the most. in this second he owns exactly as the 2 of us combined )
DiM: my guess is that we need to work together to level the game again

his reaction was to attack me.

DiM: why did you attack me? don't you see **** is growing stronger and stroger?

then the other weak guy says to the strong guy:

*******: Well - I'm happy to join you in bombing DiM back to the stoneage.. but if you attack me.....

wtf??? now they work together to bring me down and obviusly the guy i asked for help has no chance to resist after i'm eliminated. what can i do. i asked nicely i did not insult him or something like that.

Advice 3
If you are the winning player and everyone is ganging up on you then your only hope is to target just one of them at a time. It helps more if you've been slow playing it and aren't using a steam rolling strategy, because it will be harder for them to stop you if you have 8 or 10 all over the place versus 1's everywhere and 60 in a single territory.

Of course I'm just a Sergeant, but my win percentage is growing when I remind myself of these things.

yep but it's hard when i have 50 troops and all the rest have 49 and they immediately think i'm a threat and gang up on me. and in other games a guy gets twice their troops and still don't consider him a threat.

and the strange thing is that they don't satisfy their thirst of crushing me until i'm eliminated. i mean, come on , level the game but don't crush the guy for having a few extra troops.

sometimes it seems i'm a magnet for people that like to kill me. today a guy did not get his bonus back but actually decided to break all his troops and try to break mine. all this despite the fact the 3rd guy broke his bonus, not me, and the third guy had the most troops. why? don't know, as i said i'm a magnet for people like that.

right now i'm really trying to get my score up so i can get into more select games where people don't act like fools and spoil the game.

recently i joined a bunch of games with wacicha and in those games i'm the lowest ranked (i have 1476 points) and so far i'm really glad i did it. people are acting normally and they know who when and where to attack.

the only problem in those games is that apart from a few "gl all" in the begining there's absolutely no talking. weird.

[civver]

You could have eliminated player 2.

[DiM]

You could have eliminated player 2.

acually i couldn't. we had rougly the same number of troops so in no way i could have done it in 1 round, even with a mixed set. and if let's say i had attacked him i could have taken maximum half of his troops thus weakening both of us and becoming an easier target for the big guy

[DiM]

latest situation.

i have 40 troops and bonus of 7 player 2 has 80 troops and bonus of 14 and player 3 has 50 troops and bonus of 10.


on each of my borders i have 10 troops (3 borders)
player 2 (the strongest) has an undefended border (1 troop)

what does player 3 do? he rams his troops into mine taking 5 terits and leaving 2 troops in each. i lost 14 troops and he lost 8 plus he left 10 troops in my continent to prevent me from taking back my bonus.

when he ends his turn we both have less troops than in the beginning i no longer have a bonus and he left his borders rather unprotected because he lost troops to break my bonus and he left troops behind enemy lines.

[gimil]

DiM if it wasnt for bad luck you would have no luck at all

[Elwar]

Alot of players don't count armies and barely look at bonuses, just territories. Most people seem to respond well to "combined we have x armies, whilst red has y armies all by himself!" and "my bonus is 4, his is 7!". Start throwing facts around.

Also, in the above situation, who looks more threatening, the guy with 1 army on my border who hasn't done anything, or the guy with 10 whose telling me he wants a truce?

[Molacole]

i try and lower #3 bonus and maybe take him down to 10. then #2 comes and takes my bonus. and then it all goes to hell.
#3 gets his bonus back
i take back my bonus and then #2 breaks it again. #3 grows stronger
i again take my bonus back but i don't have the power to push forward and break #3. i ask #2 to stop attacking me or we'll both lose. #2 ignores me and breaks my bonus again. #3 keeps quiet and takes 1 more terit while he uses his massive bonus to further strengthen his position.
once again i use my troops to get back my bonus and again i point out in chat that #2 is giving the game to #3. again #2 breaks my bonus. then #3 takes #2 out uses his cards and takes me out and wins the game.

Well from my experience playing in standard and terminator games I completely understand where you're coming from!

It's a sticky situation when you're dealing with people who just can't see more than a turn ahead of them. You basically have 2 options when playing a group like this.

A.
You hang out around 2nd 3rd place and let everyone battle the leader or you just watch them battle each other while you try and supress the leader.

pros:
you will be able to prey on the weak and slowly build your empire
the game will remain balanced with no single super-power, people will focus on the leader and allow you the time to form a solid strategy.

cons:
The leader will basically suicide on you if he catches on to your plan and another player will come in and take him over and more times than not end up with enough cards to eliminate him and shortly after finish you off as well.
people will shy away from the strongest player and fight their own battles and leave the second strongest to hold back the strongest player while they grow stronger and you become cannon fodder.

B.
You do everything in your power to become the strongest payer as fast as possible!

pros:
you might be strong enough to hold off all attacks or atleast defend yourself enough to keep the other players weak from attacking you.
people will fear attacking you because they don't want to compete with the strongest player and fear getting eliminated or are just plain out scared.
people will leave you and the second highest player to fight while they disregard balance simply because they're not concerned with it until they have an actual chance at winning. Usually this will buy you enough time to secure your win before the second round of cards getting cashed in.

cons:
Everyone will attack you even when you're no longer the strongest player and leave the person who benifited from your losses the most alone to grow strong and eventually take your position...


Basically what I try to do in all my standard games with noobs is to float around the #1-3 spot and pound on anyone or thing that will help make me stronger. I usually waint until most people have cashed in so I have a better idea of others (poor) strategies to take over the strongest player on the board roll. 95% I'll win if I'm the strongest player after the cards get cashed in and nobody has suicided on me.

What I think it comes down to is people not being concerned with balance because they don't like their chances of winning or simply just can't see 3-5 rounds ahead and how things will play out if the pace continues to go as it has been. If I'm the super power I usually end up having everyone ignore me while I pick apart the weakest player or sometimes second strongest player into elimination, which is a shame because everyone should be gangng up on me. The only time I've been ganged up on is when people start making truces in game chat. If that happens I usually keep my focus on the second strongest and allow people to easily breach my borders with selective troop placement so I have something left over to fight with.


Probably the best strategy for winning against noobs is to just put aside any thougts of strategy and expectations of other players and straight out wing it until something opens up (usually after the cards get cashed in). This strategy or lack of has been helping me walk away with many of easy points playing terminator games...

[gimil]

Ive just raslsied DiM you use firefox addons which give you a bettter overview of whast happening. People that dont tend to go by what they see rather than facts and run on instinct.

[DiM]

gimil is right i do use BOB and have a clear view on the situation that's why i tell people exact numbers to convince them i'm telling the truth.

Also, in the above situation, who looks more threatening, the guy with 1 army on my border who hasn't done anything, or the guy with 10 whose telling me he wants a truce?

well the guy with 1 army border had double my bonus and 40 more troops than me. my guess is that he's really threatening.

95% I'll win if I'm the strongest player after the cards get cashed in and nobody has suicided on me.

this is my problem people seem to like suiciding on me. or at least crushing lots of troops if they don't suicide.

Probably the best strategy for winning against noobs is to just put aside any thougts of strategy and expectations of other players and straight out wing it until something opens up (usually after the cards get cashed in). This strategy or lack of has been helping me walk away with many of easy points playing terminator games...

the problem is that i don't play a lot of noobs. and it really bothers me when i see a guy with 1500 points that does not realize he's givin the win to someone else. it bothers me to see people with so many points that have no sense of strategy and attack in all the wrong places.


anyway, after i finish my current games i'm gonna switch to terminator style. this way i'm sure to win points.

in the meantime i've adopted a new strategy.

i grow strong but not too strong as to become a massive power but strong enough to eliminate a player.

let's say i have 45 troops and all the others have 30 i do have the most but i make sure my troops are evenly spread as not to appear very strong.
then i cash a mixed set and use my troops to kill a guy. then retreat back to my continent leaving just 1's where my victim used to be.
this way i still have 45 troops or even less but i took 3-4 cards which i'll use next turn to do more damage.
the other players will ignore my base and go for the terits where i left just 1's they battle eachother, then the next turn i use the cards again and kill someone else and then retreat back to my base.

but the problem is that in standard games i could do all the work and eliminate 4 people then a guy gets lucky dice and kills me and gets all the points. that's why i'll switch to terminator.

[gimil]

but the problem is that in standard games i could do all the work and eliminate 4 people then a guy gets lucky dice and kills me and gets all the points. that's why i'll switch to terminator.

Play no card games

ps post 800

[TipTop]

Dim, your not the only one suffering. Public ffa games are becoming unplayable for me. Deadbeating has always been a problem that I was willing to put up with but suiciders, abusive players, and sheer acts of stupidity are on the increase. I honestly believe the level of maturity on this site has reached an all time low.

Good players and good games have become the minority.

Take at look at this most recent example of one my public games click me if you want a laugh

Can anyone tell me WTF is going on inside these players heads?

Then players wonder why the more experienced players stay away from public ffa games.

[misterman10]

I didnt read the entire thread or your entire 1st post but I know what you're saying. I constantly find myself in games down to 3 players where I am the strongest. The 2 remaining players will either make an announce alliance to take me down or an unannounced alliance (not secret) and it bugs the shit out of me. I even found myself in a game where it was 3vs1, me being the one. I still managed to win that game, but come on, 3vs1!!!!!!!

[jako]

I didnt read the entire thread or your entire 1st post but I know what you're saying. I constantly find myself in games down to 3 players where I am the strongest. The 2 remaining players will either make an announce alliance to take me down or an unannounced alliance (not secret) and it bugs the shit out of me. I even found myself in a game where it was 3vs1, me being the one. I still managed to win that game, but come on, 3vs1!!!!!!!

lol 3vs1, i was one of the 3 LMAO . but mister stop complaining, u won even though it was a 3 vs 1, and u had the most troops even with me and the other 2 guy combined as well as bonuses. none of us had any until we allied against u adn as DiM said, the obvious strategy is too ally to even the playing field, so by u complaining about the 3vs1, ur contradicting this thread. DiM is complaining about how some players dont ally to weaken the strongest player but suicide on him. besides, u STILL WON, so .

[wcaclimbing]

in real life i've had quite some successes on the risk board all because of diplomacy but here people just don't read the game chat or they are so stupid they can't tell when they're doing the wrong thing despite someone telling them.

Thats the reason I stopped playing with some of my more low-level friends on here. They teamed on me and then when the game turned around, my friend was too stubborn to break the truce and save himself. ended up screwing us both over.

Thats also why I hate alliances.