Masturbation- is it wrong?

[gimil]

and if A man is suppose to have WET DREAMS all his life, then he must be lusting in his sleep!!

So? I don't control my dreams, do you control yours? That's not a sin...

I don't control my sexual orientation, do you? I didn't choose to be straight, you didn't choose to be straight, my housemate didn't choose to be gay, ect. ect. It's just the way it is. So, why is it a sin? Why is it that the big bad gays with all their horrible nastiness, having loving relationships with people they love, are being punished by being damned to hell for all of eternity, just because of the way they were made? And, since they are being punished for something they can't control, shouldn't you? So what if you cannot control lusting in your sleep, the gays get punished for being gay (which they cannot control), so shouldn't you be punished too?

Hit the nail in teh head. nice one hector. couldnt of put it better myself

[MR. Nate]

So what if you cannot control lusting in your sleep, the gays get punished for being gay (which they cannot control), so shouldn't you be punished too?

This may be semantics, but I think that lust involves the will. It would be the desire which is allowed or encouraged to grow until it takes on a life of it's own. So strictly speaking, lust couldn't occur without consciousness. However, I will say that there appears to be a correlation between what you think about awake and what you think about sleeping. (Motivation for going to bed immediately after winning a game! )

As far as homosexuality, I have yet to be convinced that the argument "This is how I am" holds water. I think that while homosexuality is not a choice, it is also not something that is pre-programmed into the subconscious, genetically or otherwise. I would argue for homosexuality being more likely a product of a particular fallen environment.

So, no one is accountable for their unconscious desires, because everyone has certain sins that they are more susceptible too, and have an inclination toward. The sin occurs when we don't squelch these thoughts, or nurture them, or act on them.

As Ambrose as said numerous times, I'm trying to interpret what I see in Scripture. If you're not convinced of the inerrancy of Scripture, I can't imagine that you would agree with me.

[dwightschrute]

The Contest- a great Seinfeld episode
watch it.

[hecter]

As far as homosexuality, I have yet to be convinced that the argument "This is how I am" holds water. I think that while homosexuality is not a choice, it is also not something that is pre-programmed into the subconscious, genetically or otherwise. I would argue for homosexuality being more likely a product of a particular fallen environment.

So what you are saying that, while it is not a choice, it is still a sin. But what if this "fallen environment" was of no fault of there own? What if it has to do with how they've been raised, or how they were treated at school? Would that mean that the homosexual in question is being punished for a crime they did commit, as that IS how they are NOW, but the motive, so to speak (why they are in fact homosexual) is of no fault of their own? Or would them being a full blown homosexual require them to "nurture" this sin? Or does the sin lie, not in the fact that homosexuality in itself is a sin, but "spilling of the seed" is (in which case being a lesbian should be fine)?

That would also be another aspect of why masturbation is so bad. You are spilling seed, which is against the catholic church's rules. But then that means that any form of birth control is also a sin.

As Ambrose as said numerous times, I'm trying to interpret what I see in Scripture. If you're not convinced of the inerrancy of Scripture, I can't imagine that you would agree with me.

Doesn't mean I cannot listen and learn. If you are good at arguing, you can argue from any point of view, and see why any point of view is valid. You, among many others ARE Christian and love, learn and teach what the bible says. I can see why you do that, I can accept that, I can learn from you and what you have to say even though I am an atheist and do not always agree with your point of view. The point is, it's still valid and I still want to hear it.

[MR. Nate]

So what you are saying that, while it is not a choice, it is still a sin. But what if this "fallen environment" was of no fault of there own? What if it has to do with how they've been raised, or how they were treated at school? Would that mean that the homosexual in question is being punished for a crime they did commit, as that IS how they are NOW, but the motive, so to speak (why they are in fact homosexual) is of no fault of their own? Or would them being a full blown homosexual require them to "nurture" this sin?

What I'm saying is that certain people have more of a tendency toward certain sins. In cases of homosexuality, it seems to be that fathers who never show appropriate paternal affection towards their children push their children to seek that affection in other places. I'm not saying it's absolute, but there are correlations.

Our sinful environment (we all live in one) is not our fault, particularly, but our response to it is. We are all tempted, some people with homosexuality, some people with other forms of lust, some with other temptations. The sin is NOT in the fact that temptation presents itself. The problem is when we think about it, or do it. We all live in a world full of sexual images. We can't help that. How do we respond? That is within our control. A person with homosexual tendencies, just like the person with adulterous tendencies, needs to recognize and understand that the temptation is, in fact, a temptation to sin. They then need to do what they can to control it. (Probably not going to happen outside the power of the Holy Spirit, but that's another issue again)

You are spilling seed, which is against the catholic church's rules. But then that means that any form of birth control is also a sin.

Please don't ask me to defend Catholic dogma. I can't. I have already said that any sexual activity between a married man and woman is acceptable. I don't think that procreation is the only purpose for sex. i.e. if your married, and the two of you are alone, God is not going to be offended by any particular physical action.

Doesn't mean I cannot listen and learn. If you are good at arguing, you can argue from any point of view, and see why any point of view is valid. You, among many others ARE Christian and love, learn and teach what the bible says. I can see why you do that, I can accept that, I can learn from you and what you have to say even though I am an atheist and do not always agree with your point of view. The point is, it's still valid and I still want to hear it.

And I appreciate your open mindedness, hecter. I was trying to avoid the violent "Don't push your religion on me" response.

[MeDeFe]

I have an off-topic question: When did hecter become a debater?

[hecter]

I have an off-topic question: When did hecter become a debater?

I've always enjoyed a bit of discussion on such things, I just kinda stopped for a while as none of them interested me.

[hecter]

Our sinful environment (we all live in one) is not our fault, particularly, but our response to it is. We are all tempted, some people with homosexuality, some people with other forms of lust, some with other temptations. The sin is NOT in the fact that temptation presents itself. The problem is when we think about it, or do it. We all live in a world full of sexual images. We can't help that. How do we respond? That is within our control. A person with homosexual tendencies, just like the person with adulterous tendencies, needs to recognize and understand that the temptation is, in fact, a temptation to sin. They then need to do what they can to control it. (Probably not going to happen outside the power of the Holy Spirit, but that's another issue again)

And this is where we cannot reach an agreement. As you have basically stated, people are tempted into, and sometimes eventually give into, homosexuality. I couldn't disagree more with this, and I believe that until I see some proof otherwise, that will not change. I'm sure the same goes for you too.

You are spilling seed, which is against the catholic church's rules. But then that means that any form of birth control is also a sin.

Please don't ask me to defend Catholic dogma. I can't. I have already said that any sexual activity between a married man and woman is acceptable. I don't think that procreation is the only purpose for sex. i.e. if your married, and the two of you are alone, God is not going to be offended by any particular physical action.

This question was posed for anybody to answer, not just you. I would appreciate it if any catholics would be able to defend this position though, as I have always found it stupid and archaic.

[AndrewLC]

I have an off-topic question: When did hecter become a debater?

Hecter's a master-debater

[CrazyAnglican]

[hecter]

I have an off-topic question: When did hecter become a debater?

Hecter's a master-debater

Mmmm hmmm. And AK's a master-baiter...

[Beastly]

And from your post I'm going to assume that you're Christian. How, then, do you feel that masturbation doesn't break Jesus' command against lust?

Really from my point of view, Jesus didn't go around trying to change the world or how people are! He took the world as it is, not as he would have it...

Which if you think about it, is very hard to do....


The only command I have seen Jesus give is to Love one another!

Commandments are for laws of the land...If you study the word covet, which is in the Commandments, and study the word lust, you will learn to understand more what lust is.

A good way to prove a verse correct is to come up with 2 more that witness to that one...

You can't just take 1 verse and let a "RELIGION" tell you what it means.

So go find the thou shalt not lust 3 times... see if it has the same meaning...Keep in mind lust is not just about SEX


You can have lust over just about everything!


You can lust over money... So is it a sin if you spend to much money?
no, its a law of the land. You make a action you get a reaction... another law of sorts but the same thing... If you masturbate to much, what will happen... Well for one you won't have to go molest a alter boy!

Where is Jesus commanding you not to lust... and if you do find it, what kind of lusting was he speaking of?

What it comes down to... Is anything that takes your relationship away from God, is not good... And if you lust, you lust to covet! Its something you desire...God is suppose to be the desire of your heart.

I believe that Jesus probably masturbated...Because he had a human body, and sheesh you can only have so many wet dreams.

masturbating is like oxygen ...you get to much it gets you high... not enough and your gonna die... masturbating gets you high..

[reverend_kyle]

i don't think it is wrong, no...

Since when has your opinion mattered?

Since always

wtf? how long have we let girls have opinions?

[MR. Nate]

The only command I have seen Jesus give is to Love one another!

You can have lust over just about everything! You can lust over money... So is it a sin if you spend to much money?
no, its a law of the land.

You can lust after anything, that is true, and yes, every time you have that temptation, and help it to grow, or pursue it, it's sin. It happens that the name of this thread is on masturbation. Start one called "Is Greed wrong" and I'll say "Based on the Bible, Yes"

A good way to prove a verse correct is to come up with 2 more that witness to that one... You can't just take 1 verse and let a "RELIGION" tell you what it means.

Where is Jesus commanding you not to lust... and if you do find it, what kind of lusting was he speaking of?

For the record, I don't agree with your hermeneutics. How many times does God have to tell you something before you believe it? And no one tells me what the Bible says: I read it, I study, and I interpret. To answer your question though, Matthew 5:27&28. Supporting verses about lust in general: Galatians 5:16, James 1:14&15, 1 John 2:16 Jesus says lusting after a person sexually is sin, and 3 separate NT authors associate lust with living in sin.

What it comes down to... Is anything that takes your relationship away from God, is not good... And if you lust, you lust to covet! Its something you desire...God is suppose to be the desire of your heart.

It is without question that part of the reason that pursuing our intense desires is wrong is because they take the place that God should have in our lives.

I believe that Jesus probably masturbated...Because he had a human body, and sheesh you can only have so many wet dreams.

So I need 3 verses to prove what Jesus said, but you have an opinion that He did something and that holds water? That's inconsistent.

[Norse]

masturbating is like oxygen ...you get to much it gets you high... not enough and your gonna die... masturbating gets you high..

LOL, beastly masturbates.....hard

[b.k. barunt]

It seems pretty clear to me in Matthew 5, when Jesus said that if you look on a woman with lust in your heart, you have committed adultery. So i don't even need to masturbate - the mental foreplay has condemned me already. If Jesus masturbated then he was not, as the Bible says, "without sin". I've known a few men and women who didn't masturbate at all - most, if not all serious martial artists do not (by serious i mean the masters), and any doctor will tell you that "wet dreams" are sufficient to keep you from exploding. If the Bible is true, then Jesus was tempted with the same thoughts we have, but didn't give in to them.

[Riao]

^^^holy crap! Does ANYONE get into heaven then?

[b.k. barunt]

Not by your own works - that's why we needed a saviour.

[Riao]

Ah. I forget about the "you must believe in the lord" thing sometimes.

It seems pretty clear to me in Matthew 5, when Jesus said that if you look on a woman with lust in your heart, you have committed adultery.

If the Bible is true, then Jesus was tempted with the same thoughts we have, but didn't give in to them.

But if Jesus had "the same thoughts" then by his own words he committed adultery too.

I'm confused.

[CrazyAnglican]

But if Jesus had "the same thoughts" then by his own words he committed adultery too.

I'm confused.

The operative part of what B.K. is saying is that he didn't give in to them. If a lustful thought comes to mind about a girl that walks past and you think "Whoa, wait a minute. She isn't there just for me to leer at." You haven't given in to anything. You've resisted the temptation. IF you go ahead and indulge in some fantasy then you have given in to the temptation. Nobody resists every temptation about every sin, but through what we can see of Jesus' life he showed us it is possible, through him.

As far as him having the same thoughts, I'm not aware of anytime at all, in the Gospel, that gives any clues about Jesus' inner thoughts. He was tempted in the wilderness and he resisted the temptations though.

[Riao]

All right then; here's one for you:

It seems that as far as the morality of the bible goes, everyone here seems to think that it's not the act of masturbation that is the sin, but the lustful thoughts that accompany it, right?

Then is it ok, biblically concerned, to masturbate while thinking about a woman you've invented in your own mind? In that way you're not actually lusting after anyone.

[hecter]

All right then; here's one for you:

It seems that as far as the morality of the bible goes, everyone here seems to think that it's not the act of masturbation that is the sin, but the lustful thoughts that accompany it, right?

Then is it ok, biblically concerned, to masturbate while thinking about a woman you've invented in your own mind? In that way you're not actually lusting after anyone.

I think that would still qualify as lust, even though she isn't real. But I still don't know about the question I posed was answered properly, and if you were to masturbate to the person you're in love with, whether it be pictures or you're thoughts, ect.

[Riao]

All right then; here's one for you:

It seems that as far as the morality of the bible goes, everyone here seems to think that it's not the act of masturbation that is the sin, but the lustful thoughts that accompany it, right?

Then is it ok, biblically concerned, to masturbate while thinking about a woman you've invented in your own mind? In that way you're not actually lusting after anyone.

I think that would still qualify as lust, even though she isn't real. But I still don't know about the question I posed was answered properly, and if you were to masturbate to the person you're in love with, whether it be pictures or you're thoughts, ect.

Wouldn't that only be okay if you were married?

And I'm not sure that would qualify as lust. In order to lust, there has to be an object of that lust. And since the woman doesn't exist, there is no object of lust.

Since there is no one being lusted after, that leaves only sexual imagination.

[hecter]

And I'm not sure that would qualify as lust. In order to lust, there has to be an object of that lust. And since the woman doesn't exist, there is no object of lust.

The object would be a figment of your imagination. Though she does not physically exist, you lusting after this object. I don't think the lust has to be towards a real person, you're still lusting after it and feeling some sort of emotion towards, and, supposedly replacing god with this figment of your imagination.

[Riao]

And I'm not sure that would qualify as lust. In order to lust, there has to be an object of that lust. And since the woman doesn't exist, there is no object of lust.

The object would be a figment of your imagination. Though she does not physically exist, you lusting after this object. I don't think the lust has to be towards a real person, you're still lusting after it and feeling some sort of emotion towards, and, supposedly replacing god with this figment of your imagination.

Again, I have to object.

The object would be a figment of your imagination.

you are not lusting after an object... there is no object.

you're still lusting after it

There is no "it." "It" does not exist.

I don't think it's lust. Again, I would say that this is simply sexual imaginings. I don't think it's possible to lust after something that doesn't exist (unless you think exists. But since the woman is invented, it's known that she doesn't exist). You aren't wishing to have sex with "her", only imagining that you are.

I suppose you could argue that you are replacing god in your imaginings, but then all fictional writers would be subject too.