Continuation of Christianity debate.

[Jehan]

interesting thought, walrus, are you suggesting that Christianity is a giant conspiracy and if so who does it lead to?

[The Weird One]

it is a giant conspiracy, or it might be

[WalrusesRN]

Right, I am aware that you have to be dead to go there. The argument I'm making is that, since Christianity is not true, it was invented by man, and that this is simply a loop that was invented to keep the faithful faithful without ever having to have any real proof. You cannot explain to me how there cannot be evil in heaven or how there cannot be good in hell or give me any reason for it, because no one with whom I can talk has ever been there.

You state that it is not true right there; there is no scientific proof that either is true.

There is no scientific evidence that God doesn't exist, but there is no scientific evidence that santa clause doesn't exist either. I don't believe in either of them. Christians thank God for things in my presence all of the time, assuming that he DOES exist, so I will do the same (or the opposite).

[WalrusesRN]

interesting thought, walrus, are you suggesting that Christianity is a giant conspiracy and if so who does it lead to?

I am not suggesting that it is a conspiracy, merely a fallacy that has been widely accepted as truth do to the loophole that it can't be disproven. People overlook the glaring truths that man, not God, wrote the bible, and that it reflects man's beliefs, such as women and other races being inferior.

[The Weird One]

and that , if it is true (I will say neither one way or the other) what goes in the bible was decided by the victors of a power struggle that erupted between two sects of christianity after the fall of the roman empire.

[magneticgoop]

interesting thought, walrus, are you suggesting that Christianity is a giant conspiracy and if so who does it lead to?

I am not suggesting that it is a conspiracy, merely a fallacy that has been widely accepted as truth do to the loophole that it can't be disproven. People overlook the glaring truths that man, not God, wrote the bible, and that it reflects man's beliefs, such as women and other races being inferior.

please elaborate and cite examples

[magneticgoop]

and that , if it is true (I will say neither one way or the other) what goes in the bible was decided by the victors of a power struggle that erupted between two sects of christianity after the fall of the roman empire.

oh please that is from the da vinci code btw i read the book it was good but totally inaccurate biblically and historically

[Jehan]

interesting thought, walrus, are you suggesting that Christianity is a giant conspiracy and if so who does it lead to?

I am not suggesting that it is a conspiracy, merely a fallacy that has been widely accepted as truth do to the loophole that it can't be disproven. People overlook the glaring truths that man, not God, wrote the bible, and that it reflects man's beliefs, such as women and other races being inferior.

hmm,I think you should look at that statement. I think you underestimate people, your right that no one can prove or disprove the bible's divine inspiration, yet many have still found truth in its words and have chosen to believe, i guess my point is that people don't just follow things for no reason, it is true that many Christians are Christians because of the family they were brought up in, but there are equally many people who have chosen Christianity as adults, because that is where they found their Saviour. If you can believe that so many have been fooled or have fooled themselves then you must have a low opinion of the intelligence and free will of the human race, of which you yourself are a part. If these truths are so glaring how can those who have found them later turn to Christ? you should also examine your own hostility to the Bible and ask yourself why you find it so reprehensible, i have my belief but i would really like to hear yours.

[WalrusesRN]

interesting thought, walrus, are you suggesting that Christianity is a giant conspiracy and if so who does it lead to?

I am not suggesting that it is a conspiracy, merely a fallacy that has been widely accepted as truth do to the loophole that it can't be disproven. People overlook the glaring truths that man, not God, wrote the bible, and that it reflects man's beliefs, such as women and other races being inferior.

please elaborate and cite examples

Jesus of Nazareth returns a slave to his owner. 1 Timothy 2:12, "But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet."

[The Weird One]

and that , if it is true (I will say neither one way or the other) what goes in the bible was decided by the victors of a power struggle that erupted between two sects of christianity after the fall of the roman empire.

oh please that is from the da vinci code btw i read the book it was good but totally inaccurate biblically and historically

BULL SHIT

I got that from multiple sources, one, a history channel documentary
two: a New York Times Up Front [a magazine distributed by the new york times] article

[CrazyAnglican]

Hi Norse,

You have made the following statement:

Christianity is an evil faith, and to be fair so is Islam and Judaism.
You guys should seriously learn to chill the f*ck out and lighten up a bit.
I'm going for a wank.

I replied with a few of the scriptural references from two of these faiths. This supplied some of the message so you could see that Christianity (the Gospel of Christ) isn’t evil.

Now if you’d like to change your thesis to “Some Christian’s have done some bad things and tried to hide behind Christianity to get away with it”, I’ll support you. Christianity is not the church organizations or the church leadership. To indict Christianity, as a whole, for the acts of some Christians is a stereotype. So far you've made the following prejudicial statements that support my claim that you are biased and won't listen to your opposition.

I'm not particularly interested in what you have to say about anything, since Christians are extremely annoying and have a tendancy of twisting a logical debate into a profound, god-bothering mission statement.

I'm suprised that you are so vehemently against masturbation, you seem like a 'grade A' wanker to me.

You are actually the one that’s twisting a logical debate by using logical fallacies ( http://philosophy.hku.hk/think/fallacy/fallacy-list.php )

Pay particular attention to:
1) Red Herring (The behavior of some Christians has nothing to do with the goodness of the message or the faith as a whole). Your examples of the miseries, caused by some Christians, are red herrings.

2) Ad Hominem: Your attacks on the character of Christians (and me),
based on your own prejudice.

You have produced no evidence that the central doctrine of Christianity is evil. I’ve produced several lines that show that it is good. Some people do evil things regardless of whether they are atheists, Christians, Hindus, Muslims, White, Black, Gay, Straight, or any other group. It is prejudicial and unfair to characterize the whole group by the actions of some. Hecter seems to support me on this, which I thank him for.

No need to add to an already long post. Go ahead and read his entire post regarding this point. The sixth from the bottom, It's quite good and stands alone.

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... &start=165

[WalrusesRN]

interesting thought, walrus, are you suggesting that Christianity is a giant conspiracy and if so who does it lead to?

I am not suggesting that it is a conspiracy, merely a fallacy that has been widely accepted as truth do to the loophole that it can't be disproven. People overlook the glaring truths that man, not God, wrote the bible, and that it reflects man's beliefs, such as women and other races being inferior.

hmm,I think you should look at that statement. I think you underestimate people, your right that no one can prove or disprove the bible's divine inspiration, yet many have still found truth in its words and have chosen to believe, i guess my point is that people don't just follow things for no reason, it is true that many Christians are Christians because of the family they were brought up in, but there are equally many people who have chosen Christianity as adults, because that is where they found their Saviour. If you can believe that so many have been fooled or have fooled themselves then you must have a low opinion of the intelligence and free will of the human race, of which you yourself are a part. If these truths are so glaring how can those who have found them later turn to Christ? you should also examine your own hostility to the Bible and ask yourself why you find it so reprehensible, i have my belief but i would really like to hear yours.

I myself do not think that many people overlook these things on purpose, I think that they are raised to naturally disagree with and mistrust anyone who tells them things that go against their religion. It is not hard for me to think low enough of people that they would believe something that has no proof, when, by definition, faith requires no proof, and more than just Christians have faith in higher things. I also see on the news every day that people kill each other in the name of religion, and I doubt very much that a God would want people killing each other because they believed different things about him. If he creates us, then surely making the whole world one, true faith would be better, no? And just because someone has survived to a certain age does not mean that they have an extremely high intelligence level, and many could be swayed. They would fall lure to the promise of immortality in heaven. All they have to do is confess, no matter how horrible of a person they have been. I also find it hard to believe that people who were good would be banished to hell for simply not believing in God, who, supoosedly, created them and the way they think in the first place. As for myself, I consider myself blessed (no pun intended) with the fortune to have been raised in a more relaxed religious environment, that did not press upon me things which I do not think can possibly have been. How can the earth have been created within thousands of years when carbon-dating show fossils millions of years old? I harbor no grudges against Christians or other believers. I live in Louisiana. Do you know how many non-believers you find in Louisiana? Not many, let me tell you. I dislike the bible for its content, because I think that doing things for false reasons can lead to catastrophe. If you really think that haven't thought about my own beliefs, you are sadly mistaken my friend. Earlier in my life I wanted to believe in God, just so that I wouldn't feel out of place every time someone said a prayer. But I never was convinced, because there were too many holes in the argument and the alternate explanation too likely to be false. Now I would like to hear why you have the right to question my beliefs. Why do you believe as you do? I have answered your questions, and I now ask you to answer mine.

[magneticgoop]

Jesus of Nazareth returns a slave to his owner. 1 Timothy 2:12, "But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet."

this is referring to women preaching in the church. this is not because women are inferior to men they just have different roles. men were created to govern the family and church but they are not superior. the reason why is because the man is responsible to God for the church and family, and if the woman over steps her bounds the man is responsible to God. also the man is required to listen, love and care for their wives and if they abuse their power they are also accountable

[WalrusesRN]

Jesus of Nazareth returns a slave to his owner. 1 Timothy 2:12, "But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet."

this is referring to women preaching in the church. this is not because women are inferior to men they just have different roles. men were created to govern the family and church but they are not superior. the reason why is because the man is responsible to God for the church and family, and if the woman over steps her bounds the man is responsible to God. also the man is required to listen, love and care for their wives and if they abuse their power they are also accountable

Are you frickin' serious? Do you really believe that women should not have the same opportunities as a man? Why should men govern the family and church? These are outdated things that MEN made up when they wrote the bible. Why should a man be responisible to God for a woman "overstepping her bounds"? Blaming one person for another's misdeeds is wrong, (not to mention anything about killing first-born sons). I would not expect someone to seriously accept what you said. Look at it! At best you are arguing that women have DIFFERENT ROLES! Are you saying that women have "separate but equal" opportunities. Oh, come on!

[magneticgoop]

I also find it hard to believe that people who were good would be banished to hell for simply not believing in God, who, supoosedly, created them and the way they think in the first place.

Romans 3:24

24 Yet God, with undeserved kindness, declares that we are righteous. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins. 25 For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, 26 for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus.

God does not send us to hell, we do. He did everything to get us to heaven but the only thing is that we must believe what he did for us.

[WalrusesRN]

I also find it hard to believe that people who were good would be banished to hell for simply not believing in God, who, supoosedly, created them and the way they think in the first place.

Romans 3:24

24 Yet God, with undeserved kindness, declares that we are righteous. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins. 25 For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, 26 for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus.

God does not send us to hell, we do. He did everything to get us to heaven but the only thing is that we must believe what he did for us.

He forgives everyone's sins as long as they believe that Jesus died for them? Give me a break, here's a new religion: Walrusism. If you believe that I ate a grilled cheese sandwich that took away the sins of man, I'll forgive you for being human and making mistakes, and I won't sentence you to eternal damnation for that. Want to join?

(If you're looking at the screen thinking I'm crazy, then you know how I feel when people try to convince me that Christianity isn't as ridiculous as that.)

It boils down to the same thing. You follow Christianity (you can't think Christ died for your sins without being Christian) or you go to hell (supposedly for your own sins, when, as I say, God, supposedly, created you and the way you think.)

(If you're looking at the screen thinking I'm crazy, then you know how I feel when people try to convince me that Christianity isn't as ridiculous as that.)

[magneticgoop]

Jesus of Nazareth returns a slave to his owner. 1 Timothy 2:12, "But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet."

this is referring to women preaching in the church. this is not because women are inferior to men they just have different roles. men were created to govern the family and church but they are not superior. the reason why is because the man is responsible to God for the church and family, and if the woman over steps her bounds the man is responsible to God. also the man is required to listen, love and care for their wives and if they abuse their power they are also accountable

Are you frickin' serious? Do you really believe that women should not have the same opportunities as a man? Why should men govern the family and church? These are outdated things that MEN made up when they wrote the bible. Why should a man be responisible to God for a woman "overstepping her bounds"? Blaming one person for another's misdeeds is wrong, (not to mention anything about killing first-born sons). I would not expect someone to seriously accept what you said. Look at it! At best you are arguing that women have DIFFERENT ROLES! Are you saying that women have "separate but equal" opportunities. Oh, come on!

no women and men have different but equal roles. the man and woman have almost the same role but the man is accountable to God. an example would be if a lieutenant was being commanded by a sargent the lieutenant is answerable to a court marshal is anything goes wrong, even though the sargent was the one who made the decisions. but the man is equal to the woman. the woman can do anything a man can do except head the household or church.

whaer did you get killing first born from?

[magneticgoop]

You follow Christianity or you go to hell

basically. he did the hard part all you have to do is believe. he could force you but he wants you to make that decision on your own

[magneticgoop]

and that , if it is true (I will say neither one way or the other) what goes in the bible was decided by the victors of a power struggle that erupted between two sects of christianity after the fall of the roman empire.

oh please that is from the da vinci code btw i read the book it was good but totally inaccurate biblically and historically

BULL SHIT

I got that from multiple sources, one, a history channel documentary
two: a New York Times Up Front [a magazine distributed by the new york times] article

please explain

[Neutrino]

You follow Christianity or you go to hell

basically. he did the hard part all you have to do is believe. he could force you but he wants you to make that decision on your own

So life is like Russian Roulette: Make the right choice on 0% information or burn in hell forever.

All religions offer approxomatly the same amount of proof for their own correctness. Most have a holy book, maybe a prophet or two, but none offer any more information for their own truthfulness than the opposition. If it is true that God actually does want us to live in heaven forever (but is compelled by circumstances beyond his control to turn the entire thing into a game of chance ) then why does he permit the existince of other religions? Billions upon billions of people will supposedly burn in hell forever because they chose a different religion.

And what of the Aztecs and such who lived and died for thousands of years without hearing 'the word of god'? Are they all doomed to burn in hell because they were burn at the wrong place and the wrong time?

[Neutrino]

no women and men have different but equal roles. the man and woman have almost the same role but the man is accountable to God. an example would be if a lieutenant was being commanded by a sargent the lieutenant is answerable to a court marshal is anything goes wrong, even though the sargent was the one who made the decisions. but the man is equal to the woman. the woman can do anything a man can do except head the household or church.

whaer did you get killing first born from?

I would have assumed that you would avoid using an example that uilizes military ranks, because they are designed on the very fact that some are superior to others

One is a Sergeant and the other a Lieutenant and they are equal? Ssssuuuurrrreeeee

What is wrong with a woman heading a household or church? What about these two things makes them man-only jobs?

Anyway, if a man can do anything and a woman can do anything-2, it makes it rather difficult to call them equal

[magneticgoop]

You follow Christianity or you go to hell

basically. he did the hard part all you have to do is believe. he could force you but he wants you to make that decision on your own

So life is like Russian Roulette: Make the right choice on 0% information or burn in hell forever.

All religions offer approxomatly the same amount of proof for their own correctness. Most have a holy book, maybe a prophet or two, but none offer any more information for their own truthfulness than the opposition. If it is true that God actually does want us to live in heaven forever (but is compelled by circumstances beyond his control to turn the entire thing into a game of chance ) then why does he permit the existince of other religions? Billions upon billions of people will supposedly burn in hell forever because they chose a different religion.

And what of the Aztecs and such who lived and died for thousands of years without hearing 'the word of god'? Are they all doomed to burn in hell because they were burn at the wrong place and the wrong time?

God gave us freedom to govern ourselves he lets us do what we want and believe what we want but we must pay the penalty. if the penalty is heaven or hell it was that persons choice of religion. as for aztecs and such their ancestors chose to turn from judaism and they are accountable to all of those lives in hell. unfortunately that is the price we pay for free will

[Neutrino]

God gave us freedom to govern ourselves he lets us do what we want and believe what we want but we must pay the penalty. if the penalty is heaven or hell it was that persons choice of religion. as for aztecs and such their ancestors chose to turn from judaism and they are accountable to all of those lives in hell. unfortunately that is the price we pay for free will

"Under one of these hats is eternal happyness. Under the rest is eternal damnation. All these hats are completly identical and I'm not going to give you any hints as to which is the correct one"

Sounds like the actions of a completly sane god

Ummm, how exactly were the Aztecs supposed to know of Christianity when they ravelled to the Americas several dozen millennia before Christianity was started?

Even if the 6000 year theory was correct (and so the Aztecs must have known about Christianity before they left Asia ) then why should their decendants suffer for something that their ancestors did? This completly invalidates your point about the ability of someone to become Christian later in life!

[WalrusesRN]

Jesus of Nazareth returns a slave to his owner. 1 Timothy 2:12, "But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet."

this is referring to women preaching in the church. this is not because women are inferior to men they just have different roles. men were created to govern the family and church but they are not superior. the reason why is because the man is responsible to God for the church and family, and if the woman over steps her bounds the man is responsible to God. also the man is required to listen, love and care for their wives and if they abuse their power they are also accountable

Are you frickin' serious? Do you really believe that women should not have the same opportunities as a man? Why should men govern the family and church? These are outdated things that MEN made up when they wrote the bible. Why should a man be responisible to God for a woman "overstepping her bounds"? Blaming one person for another's misdeeds is wrong, (not to mention anything about killing first-born sons). I would not expect someone to seriously accept what you said. Look at it! At best you are arguing that women have DIFFERENT ROLES! Are you saying that women have "separate but equal" opportunities. Oh, come on!

no women and men have different but equal roles. the man and woman have almost the same role but the man is accountable to God. an example would be if a lieutenant was being commanded by a sargent the lieutenant is answerable to a court marshal is anything goes wrong, even though the sargent was the one who made the decisions. but the man is equal to the woman. the woman can do anything a man can do except head the household or church.
N
whaer did you get killing first born from?

Listen to yourself! Different but equal and separate but equal are practically the same thing! Why shouldn't a woman head a church or household? A woman is just as capable of either of these tasks as a man. And a man should not be responsible for a woman's decisions. The woman should be responsible for her own decisions. To say that she should not is demeaning. It stems from belief that women are inferior. People are responsible for their pets because the pet cannot understand the consequences of all of its actions. And you can't deny that at the time the bible was written, that women were considered inferior. Oh and the firstborn, Exodus 11:1 - 12:30, haven't you ever heard of Passover?

[magneticgoop]

no women and men have different but equal roles. the man and woman have almost the same role but the man is accountable to God. an example would be if a lieutenant was being commanded by a sargent the lieutenant is answerable to a court marshal is anything goes wrong, even though the sargent was the one who made the decisions. but the man is equal to the woman. the woman can do anything a man can do except head the household or church.

whaer did you get killing first born from?

I would have assumed that you would avoid using an example that uilizes military ranks, because they are designed on the very fact that some are superior to others

One is a Sergeant and the other a Lieutenant and they are equal? Ssssuuuurrrreeeee

What is wrong with a woman heading a household or church? What about these two things makes them man-only jobs?

Anyway, if a man can do anything and a woman can do anything-2, it makes it rather difficult to call them equal

i was using the ranks as a concrete example of responsibility not of equality. and it is not a man only job but if there are men then the men should take the responsibility. it is just the way we are made.

lets say you live in a traditional house where the husband works and the wife takes care of the kids and home. which is more important? neither they are equal but different. the man is responsible because one of his roles is to oversee all that goes on in the house, much like a supervisor or boss; if an employee screws up both the boss and employee are accountable.