Continuation of Christianity debate.

[magneticgoop]

If you don't mind me answering this question as well, I'd like to throw my hat into the discussion.

Encountering Christ is a result of the Holy Spirit's movement within the soul of a person. People encounter Christ every day, I believe, but those that are seeking for these encounters and are faithful to the relationship created as a Christian are the ones most impacted by these encounters. I often find myself not giving enough credit to God, though, shrugging off occurrences as just the "way things are." I know I am challenged to faithfully trust God has His hand in my every living moment, and learning this and using this wisdom is when we gain the most from our encounters. Sometimes, things are abrupt, in your face, like the conversion of Saul. But just as amazing is the belief of a child in a small church or that I woke up today. My proof is that I live for Him.

Perhaps one of the reasons I do not think there is a God is because, of my own situation. You see, I really do not feel as if I have had a choice in the matter as far as believing in superior beings. I have always found too many holes in the idea and thought it far more likely that God was a creation of the human mind to keep itself at ease. But, as I have been atheist for a while, this thought was added to my reasoning. Why would a God not want me to believe in him? It doesn't make much sense to me, but hopefully, I'm supposed to be atheist according to his plan, and he might save a spot in heaven for me anyway. I don't really believe it, but it would be better than not existing when I die.

But, more importantly, Brawl is going to be SWEEEEETTTT . . .

lol. but seriously he wants you to believe in him and it wasnt part of his plan. us humans have mad him go from plan A to B to C to AA to DG to KISXDJR plan HAIVVDIRKVVJSKEFBKZMGOWKG he is always trying to get us to turn back to him and he wants that for us

[WalrusesRN]

Perhaps one of the reasons I do not think there is a God is because, of my own situation. You see, I really do not feel as if I have had a choice in the matter as far as believing in superior beings. I have always found too many holes in the idea and thought it far more likely that God was a creation of the human mind to keep itself at ease. But, as I have been atheist for a while, this thought was added to my reasoning. Why would a God not want me to believe in him? It doesn't make much sense to me, but hopefully, I'm supposed to be atheist according to his plan, and he might save a spot in heaven for me anyway. I don't really believe it, but it would be better than not existing when I die.

But, more importantly, Brawl is going to be SWEEEEETTTT . . .

lol. but seriously he wants you to believe in him and it wasnt part of his plan. us humans have mad him go from plan A to B to C to AA to DG to KISXDJR plan HAIVVDIRKVVJSKEFBKZMGOWKG he is always trying to get us to turn back to him and he wants that for us

No offense, but I said earlier that I felt I had no control over the matter. I can't force myself to believe something my mind won't accept. I am what I am. I change, but so far I'm not convinced. I have no problems with religion though, other than them making people do things for the wrong reasons. It may be the right thing or the wrong thing. Fear of hell may make a previously bad person walk an old lady across the street. But religion can also make people kill, or prevent others from having their proper rights. Christianity is no different. Right now gay people cannot get married to each other, a right all heterosexuals have, and many Christians cite God as a reason why this should be. (the other argument, that marriage is defined as between a man and a woman, is feeble. A definition can be changed, or an alternative name thought up.) Religion can be good for people, but sadly I think throughout history, the bad has outwayed the good. As for now I remain with my beliefs.

[2dimes]

I don't know what you have against gay people but making them get married is just cruel.

[Neutrino]

the difference between Christianity and every other religion is that God comes to you not you go to God. people suffer from consequences of human events all the time: Romans salting the fields of Carthage, the communist party, slave trade. how does this invalidate my point about becoming a christian?

You were just saying that you had to become Christian before god would save you now you are saying that he will come to you.

Choose one and stick with it.

Since the Aztecs and similar peoples migrated to the Americas long before Christianity was started, how could they have known about it?
Same goes for everyone who lived before the year 0.
Why should they spend the rest of eternity burning in hell just because they had the misfortune to be born too early or in the wrong part of the world?

[Jenos Ridan]

the difference between Christianity and every other religion is that God comes to you not you go to God. people suffer from consequences of human events all the time: Romans salting the fields of Carthage, the communist party, slave trade. how does this invalidate my point about becoming a christian?

You were just saying that you had to become Christian before god would save you now you are saying that he will come to you.

Choose one and stick with it.

Since the Aztecs and similar peoples migrated to the Americas long before Christianity was started, how could they have known about it?
Same goes for everyone who lived before the year 0.
Why should they spend the rest of eternity burning in hell just because they had the misfortune to be born too early or in the wrong part of the world?

There is no 'year zero'. BC then AD. No zero, year 1 BC then year 1 AD.

I don't recall where or when or by whom this was stated, but the fate of those who didn't hear the Good News is uncertain, as it is up to God entirely. However, those who did hear and choise not to follow it, their fate is made quiet clear in Revelations and in the Gosples.

[Neutrino]

There is no 'year zero'. BC then AD. No zero, year 1 BC then year 1 AD.

I don't recall where or when or by whom this was stated, but the fate of those who didn't hear the Good News is uncertain, as it is up to God entirely. However, those who did hear and choise not to follow it, their fate is made quiet clear in Revelations and in the Gosples.

So you are saying that if you haven't heard of Christianity your fate is decided entirely on good and bad deeds, while if you have then it is decided on good and bad deeds and being a Christian.

Dosen't seem very fair, does it?

If this is true, then wouldn't it be better, ultimatly, if the population remained ignorant of the existance of Christianity? More souls in total would go to heaven since no-one would know of the existance of Christianity and therefore could not be caught up in that tricky little rule.

What of the American Indians? Those met by Conquistadors would have been aware of the existance of Christianity but certainly would not have converted to it because the people who were bringing it to them were also bringing fire and death and such.

[Anarchy Ninja]

There is no 'year zero'. BC then AD. No zero, year 1 BC then year 1 AD.

I don't recall where or when or by whom this was stated, but the fate of those who didn't hear the Good News is uncertain, as it is up to God entirely. However, those who did hear and choise not to follow it, their fate is made quiet clear in Revelations and in the Gosples.

So you are saying that if you haven't heard of Christianity your fate is decided entirely on good and bad deeds, while if you have then it is decided on good and bad deeds and being a Christian.

Dosen't seem very fair, does it?

If this is true, then wouldn't it be better, ultimatly, if the population remained ignorant of the existance of Christianity? More souls in total would go to heaven since no-one would know of the existance of Christianity and therefore could not be caught up in that tricky little rule.

What of the American Indians? Those met by Conquistadors would have been aware of the existance of Christianity but certainly would not have converted to it because the people who were bringing it to them were also bringing fire and death and such.

Don't forget disease, the biggest killer. And QFT Tom QFT, like I've said being denied eternal bliss simply because you did not believe in that particular religion doesn't sound much like a supreme benevolent being to me, more like an egotistical(sp) and jealous(sp) child.

[MR. Nate]

after the fall of the roman empire, two key sects of christianity warred over who was right, (much like the present day middle east after the fall of the ottoman empire) one was the gnostics (you know, all those books that have been deemed false just because some random member of the clergy) didn't like what they said. the other sect, was the winning one (not sure of the name)
you have heard the saying: "History is written by the victors"
That is the basis of my argument.

I wouldn't say "warred" but the gnostic heresy has strong oriental and/or platonic influences. The physical flesh is evil, and salvation is through special "knowledge" (gnosis). It was rejected as a part of Christianity because, among other things, it rejected that Christ could have existed physically or died & still been sinless.

If this is true, then wouldn't it be better, ultimatly, if the population remained ignorant of the existance of Christianity? More souls in total would go to heaven since no-one would know of the existance of Christianity and therefore could not be caught up in that tricky little rule.

What of the American Indians? Those met by Conquistadors would have been aware of the existance of Christianity but certainly would not have converted to it because the people who were bringing it to them were also bringing fire and death and such.

I don't think that Jenos said it was based on works. God is not limited to working through humanity. Abraham left his home and family based entirely on God speaking to him. He had no written Bible, no one that we know of who told him the truth, but He was justified by believing God. Same with Malchizadek. Prior to the year 1, and in places far from Isreal, people came to heaven the same way that Christians today do: Accepting the wrong they do as an offense to God, throwing themselves on His mercy, and believing that He will (or has, depending on you time) provide a substitute.

I've said being denied eternal bliss simply because you did not believe in that particular religion doesn't sound much like a supreme benevolent being to me, more like an egotistical(sp) and jealous(sp) child.

So God is supposed to reward you for disobeying Him? If He lays down specific rules about coming to Him, and you ignore them, how is it egotistical or jealous to say that your disobedience has consequences?

[n8freeman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kF3L359yKjs&NR=1
^watch^
some funny stuff right here



religious fanatics, lol

[magneticgoop]

You were just saying that you had to become Christian before god would save you now you are saying that he will come to you.

Choose one and stick with it.

Since the Aztecs and similar peoples migrated to the Americas long before Christianity was started, how could they have known about it?
Same goes for everyone who lived before the year 0.
Why should they spend the rest of eternity burning in hell just because they had the misfortune to be born too early or in the wrong part of the world?

like mr. nate said God can speak to a person without humans for all we know he did tell 1 or more aztecs and they didn't share or they were killed or whatever.

anyone who died before christ that was a jew went to a holding place called Sheol (aka paradise, bosom of abraham). after christ died he we4nt to hell for 3 days and after that went to Sheol (i cant remember exactly when) and told everyone there who he was and his message, those who believed went to heaven.

[magneticgoop]

also God comes to you all you have to do is accept and believe his message

[magneticgoop]

No offense, but I said earlier that I felt I had no control over the matter. I can't force myself to believe something my mind won't accept. I am what I am. I change, but so far I'm not convinced. I have no problems with religion though, other than them making people do things for the wrong reasons. It may be the right thing or the wrong thing. Fear of hell may make a previously bad person walk an old lady across the street. But religion can also make people kill, or prevent others from having their proper rights. Christianity is no different. Right now gay people cannot get married to each other, a right all heterosexuals have, and many Christians cite God as a reason why this should be. (the other argument, that marriage is defined as between a man and a woman, is feeble. A definition can be changed, or an alternative name thought up.) Religion can be good for people, but sadly I think throughout history, the bad has outwayed the good. As for now I remain with my beliefs.

i totally respect that view but i think the problem is you use your mind over your heart this can be good at times but God is not about logic he is about love

[vtmarik]

also God comes to you all you have to do is accept and believe his message

What if the message you receive flies in the face of accepted doctrine?

[magneticgoop]

also God comes to you all you have to do is accept and believe his message

What if the message you receive flies in the face of accepted doctrine?

examples...

[vtmarik]

also God comes to you all you have to do is accept and believe his message

What if the message you receive flies in the face of accepted doctrine?

examples...

That the Bible isn't the word of God, and that sin is a lie used by evil men to trick people into surrendering their free will to the One True Church.

[magneticgoop]

also God comes to you all you have to do is accept and believe his message

What if the message you receive flies in the face of accepted doctrine?

examples...

That the Bible isn't the word of God, and that sin is a lie used by evil men to trick people into surrendering their free will to the One True Church.

ok god tells me this or a human?

[vtmarik]

also God comes to you all you have to do is accept and believe his message

What if the message you receive flies in the face of accepted doctrine?

examples...

That the Bible isn't the word of God, and that sin is a lie used by evil men to trick people into surrendering their free will to the One True Church.

ok god tells me this or a human?

God.

[magneticgoop]

well i would believe it but that is not his primary conern

[vtmarik]

well i would believe it but that is not his primary conern

Could you elaborate?

[magneticgoop]

i would believe what he told me if i was told it. but God hasn't told anyone that if he did a large majority of Christians would reject their current bibles. but God is more concerned with saving people's souls

[The Weird One]

after the fall of the roman empire, two key sects of christianity warred over who was right, (much like the present day middle east after the fall of the ottoman empire) one was the gnostics (you know, all those books that have been deemed false just because some random member of the clergy) didn't like what they said. the other sect, was the winning one (not sure of the name)

you have heard the saying: "History is written by the victors"

That is the basis of my argument.

that is davinci code but in short gnostic gospels were inconsistent with what was already known about God. they were heretical books that were thrown out gnostic are not christains, they are heretics you will say this proves your point further but they are totally inconsistent with the rest of the bible.

you keep on saying that I get my argument from the da vinci code, would you like me to find links that would convince you otherwise!?!

it is from the davinci code which is based on an old gnostic heresy

I will find (later today, when I have more time) some sources for this information and post links for you.

ignoring the part of someone decididing what went into the bible, you still cannot ignore the fact of the conflict between the two sects of christianity in which the victor was able to claim that their way was the right way.

[magneticgoop]

I will find (later today, when I have more time) some sources for this information and post links for you.

ignoring the part of someone decididing what went into the bible, you still cannot ignore the fact of the conflict between the two sects of christianity in which the victor was able to claim that their way was the right way.

gnostics are not christians they are heretics their gospels are not accurite that is why they were thrown out

[vtmarik]

I will find (later today, when I have more time) some sources for this information and post links for you.

ignoring the part of someone decididing what went into the bible, you still cannot ignore the fact of the conflict between the two sects of christianity in which the victor was able to claim that their way was the right way.

gnostics are not christians they are heretics their gospels are not accurite that is why they were thrown out

Perhaps it was the fact that their writings downplayed the need for a centralized Church that caused the most distrust amongst the people collating the Bible.

[magneticgoop]

I will find (later today, when I have more time) some sources for this information and post links for you.

ignoring the part of someone decididing what went into the bible, you still cannot ignore the fact of the conflict between the two sects of christianity in which the victor was able to claim that their way was the right way.

gnostics are not christians they are heretics their gospels are not accurite that is why they were thrown out

Perhaps it was the fact that their writings downplayed the need for a centralized Church that caused the most distrust amongst the people collating the Bible.

the bible doesn't say anything about a need for a centralized church. the church is the group of Christians not the clergy

[MR. Nate]

Perhaps it was the fact that their writings downplayed the need for a centralized Church that caused the most distrust amongst the people collating the Bible.

Or perhaps it was the fact that they felt that Jesus had to be incorporeal in order to be sinless, and could not possibly have died if He was incorporeal. That would essentially remove the guts of the gospel (Jesus was fully God, fully human, and died to pay the penalty for sin). Or perhaps it was the lack of coherence in the writings, or the contradictions throughout them.

What in the current gospels makes you think that Christianity is supposed to be centralized?