Portugal [Quenched]

gimil · Post by **gimil** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 7:06 pm

KEYOGI why the f*ck do you need to pick out trivial details at such a fucking late stage in the process?

I pritty sure you can see i cant move those terr names.

And with the army circles if i take them out i need to re-move coordinates to make the numbers look more centered. With im not doing because enought work has went into geting the terr names and army circles to sit whee the are.

gimil · Post by **gimil** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 7:09 pm

Ive fucking lost my patience with this foundry. No one is treating me or other cartographes with any respect. They dont seem to understand how much work we put in and all ou guys can do around is go out your way to make thigs difficult when they dont need to be,

edbeard · Post by **edbeard** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 7:34 pm

gimil keyogi's just trying to make your map that much better.

he didn't say you had to do anything or else. He just made a simple suggestion. I'm not sure if you tried it or not. But, maybe it will help the map or maybe it won't. It's not something that takes forever to do.

Yes the foundry process is slow and sometimes painful, but not even attempting good suggestions doesn't help the process. It can be very frustrating especially when people don't read before they post but you have to work with the system instead of against it.

good luck.

DiM · Post by **DiM** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 7:59 pm

edbeard wrote:gimil keyogi's just trying to make your map that much better.

he didn't say you had to do anything or else. He just made a simple suggestion. I'm not sure if you tried it or not. But, maybe it will help the map or maybe it won't. It's not something that takes forever to do.

Yes the foundry process is slow and sometimes painful, but not even attempting good suggestions doesn't help the process. It can be very frustrating especially when people don't read before they post but you have to work with the system instead of against it.

good luck.

no gimil is right on this one. the foundry process is so slow and so absurd at times you just want to go crazy.
this map was forged almost 2 months ago. and keyogi comes after more than a month and a half and asks for moving names and removing army circles. let's get serious. this is really absurd.
and this happens only to some map makers not all. why does a final forge for widowmakers take just a few days and for gimil almost 2 months? why do you never see keyogi asking stupid modifications in one of wm's maps?

you say he should do what keyogi asked and see if it's good? no i say screw this stupidity and quench the map now. if this is continued some map makers will stay in final forge for months because stupid things are asked while others are left alone to develop.

why the heck does keyogi come more than 6 weeks after forging and ask for such modifications? final forge is for minor nitpicking like centering a few army coordinates, gimil has done a whole lot in final forge much more than the necessary and still this is not quenched?

i ask again. why some map makers are put through this stupid ordeal by andy and keyogi while others aren't?

and since i used WM as an example let's take a look at his latest quenched map. the indochina revamp. it stayed in FF for just 9 days and the only thing modified where the dots/lines issue. in this time neither keyogi or andy came to ask for stupid things. they could have easily come and ask for army circles, "just to see an alternative" or for moving around army coords. no they sat back relaxed and let the foundry flow naturally. that's what they should do in every thread. instead if they don't like somebody they come with stupid requests and for no reason the slow down the process.
still on the indochina revamp let's take a look at the quench. despite the community being split between lines or dots WM was allowed a veto and his decision was final. i haven't seen that in other maps. also just 32 minutes after WM presented his map with the dots keyogi cae and quenched it. usually after a version is presented there should be some time allowed for others to post their opinion. but no. it was done in 32 minutes. why can't gimil get the same treatment??

edbeard · Post by **edbeard** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:25 pm

well if I were gimil and I liked how my map looked as it is currently I might say something like this

Army circles are a must because of the island territories. It might look fine with army numbers in the territories themselves, but it looks very strange to have army numbers in the middle of the water. The circles are necessary as they give a look that the numbers belong in these spots. As for moving the labels, I tried but they didn't work anywhere else and I think it looks fine as it is now.

That's all he had to say (well also maybe actually trying to make the changes).

Keyogi was giving a simple suggestion and it just needs a response. Honestly it would only take 15 minutes max (probably 5) to try out the changes he suggested. The response gimil gave will not help the progress of the map.

Widowmakers might not have had all the same suggestions as gimil has had but he sure as hell would either try them out or give a reason as to why it wouldn't work or doesn't fit.

edit: I know how difficult the process is and how the foundry can be. After the South America Map is finished I will probably take an extended break from the foundry. Not only because of how people act in here but also because of outside reasons. sorry for going off topic.

DiM · Post by **DiM** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:38 pm

edbeard wrote:well if I were gimil and I liked how my map looked as it is currently I might say something like this

Army circles are a must because of the island territories. It might look fine with army numbers in the territories themselves, but it looks very strange to have army numbers in the middle of the water. The circles are necessary as they give a look that the numbers belong in these spots. As for moving the labels, I tried but they didn't work anywhere else and I think it looks fine as it is now.

That's all he had to say (well also maybe actually trying to make the changes).

Keyogi was giving a simple suggestion and it just needs a response. Honestly it would only take 15 minutes max (probably 5) to try out the changes he suggested. The response gimil gave will not help the progress of the map.

yeah he could have said that but after waiting almost 2 months you do get a bit impatient. especially since the map has been in production for such a long time and keyogi didn't ever mention such modifications. all of a sudden 1,5 months after the forge he comes and asks for this. that's just pure mean. it's not helping the foundry process at all. i see keyogi in indochina revamp all the time posting and not a single time has he made a stupid request. and here he posts every once in a while with such things. if all maps were treated like indochina then we would have a lot more quenched maps.

edbeard wrote:Widowmakers might not have had all the same suggestions as gimil has had but he sure as hell would either try them out or give a reason as to why it wouldn't work or doesn't fit.

are you sure he would. i've never seen WM stay in the final forge for 2 months. are you sure he'd still be willing to listen to stupid suggestions after all that time? but wait we wouldn't have to listen to anybody since he can simply decide whatever he wants and in 32 minutes keyogi comes and quenches.

edbeard wrote:edit: I know how difficult the process is and how the foundry can be. After the South America Map is finished I will probably take an extended break from the foundry. Not only because of how people act in here but also because of outside reasons. sorry for going off topic.

getting south america quenched might take a little more than you expect. at the current rate things are beginning to be slowed down for some map makers i wouldn't be surprised if your map gets quenched next year.

edbeard · Post by **edbeard** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:43 pm

nothing against gimil or anyone else, but did you ever think it's because Widowmaker's maps are just that good where they don't have these small nitpicky problems? I don't care about them but if they are there people will point them out

DiM · Post by **DiM** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:59 pm

edbeard wrote:nothing against gimil or anyone else, but did you ever think it's because Widowmaker's maps are just that good where they don't have these small nitpicky problems? I don't care about them but if they are there people will point them out

come on let's get serious if you really want to slow down a map (something keyogi seems to enjoy you can find problems in anything)

let's see what keyogi could have done to slow down indochina
week 1.
come and ask for army circles. wm promptly offers an alternative or at least some reasons why he doesn't want them.

week 2.
after ignoring the map for a week keyogi comes back to the thread and says he wants the army coordinates moved around to be centered along with the names whereever possible. for example look at phan tien. the army number is right in the miggle of the terit name but in saigon it's not despite the fact there's plenty of space to do it.

week 3.
Dong Hoi font is slightly bigger than kammuan. same for other terits. corect those.

week 4.
the dootted lines in the inner terits could use to be moved more near the borders. they would offer some extra consistency.

week 5.
some terit names touch the borders. correct them.

week 6.
the dotted line near the shore is too dense perhaps make the dots a little more scarce.

week 7.
the latitude and longitude lines don't correspond on the margin markers. make them do.

week 8.
china region is too dark while thailand is too bright.

see how easy it is? stalling is really really easy. what if keyogi would have done this to wm's indochina??

and seriously now indochina could have used a little more time but it was rushed like there was no tommorrow. i have no idea why.
as i said. army numbers aren't centered names touch borders. and look at the font in the small version. can you honestly say you can read it perfectly? i know i can't and i have perfect eyes. and yet i have to lok at the large version to see some names like mondulkiri or thanh hoa.

gimil · Post by **gimil** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:43 pm

Ive really tried not to get myself involved in these foundry disputes but there is clear favoritism going on and im sick of it.

edbeard i can assure you that i believe widowmakers maps are excellent, it how the foundry process isnt working the way its suppose to be.

09 Sep 2007 01:52 - WM post the latest draft of indochina.

09 Sep 2007 02:24 - Like DiM said 32min later KEYOGI comes by and quenched the map.

32mins? hold that thought.. .. .. .. ..

Final Forge

--- The Portugal map has reached the ‘Final Forge’ Stage. I've revived this thread from the pits of the Foundry furnace and have examined the contents. Nearly every major concern has been addressed. If there are any other current concerns, please make your voice heard. If after a reasonable amount of time there has not been any objection or protest, the map will be deemed finished with the 'Foundry Brand' of approval and will be submitted for live play. As long as there is still discussion or posts that have yet to be commented on, the map will remain in Final Forge until said discussion has reached the conclusion that the map has reached its final and polished version.

now at:

31 Aug 2007 15:04 - I put up the (what i thought would be) the final draft of portugal.

04 Sep 2007 02:18 - almost 4 days laterKEYOGI decideds he wants 2 terr names moved when theres NO space to move them (which by the way doesnt take a genius to see this) and then he decideds he doesnt like hte army circles which have been there pritty much since day one.

but my point is:

If after a reasonable amount of time there has not been any objection or protest, the map will be deemed finished with the 'Foundry Brand' of approval and will be submitted for live play.

What makes 32min a reasonable amount of time? And what makes almost 4 days not a reasonable amount of time?

DiM · Post by **DiM** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:58 pm

gimil wrote:Ive really tried not to get myself involved in these foundry disputes but there is clear favoritism going on and im sick of it.

edbeard i can assure you that i believe widowmakers maps are excellent, it how the foundry process isnt working the way its suppose to be.

09 Sep 2007 01:52 - WM post the latest draft of indochina.

09 Sep 2007 02:24 - Like DiM said 32min later KEYOGI comes by and quenched the map.

32mins? hold that thought.. .. .. .. ..

Final Forge

--- The Portugal map has reached the ‘Final Forge’ Stage. I've revived this thread from the pits of the Foundry furnace and have examined the contents. Nearly every major concern has been addressed. If there are any other current concerns, please make your voice heard. If after a reasonable amount of time there has not been any objection or protest, the map will be deemed finished with the 'Foundry Brand' of approval and will be submitted for live play. As long as there is still discussion or posts that have yet to be commented on, the map will remain in Final Forge until said discussion has reached the conclusion that the map has reached its final and polished version.

now at:

31 Aug 2007 15:04 - I put up the (what i thought would be) the final draft of portugal.

04 Sep 2007 02:18 - almost 4 days laterKEYOGI decideds he wants 2 terr names moved when theres NO space to move them (which by the way doesnt take a genius to see this) and then he decideds he doesnt like hte army circles which have been there pritty much since day one.

but my point is:

If after a reasonable amount of time there has not been any objection or protest, the map will be deemed finished with the 'Foundry Brand' of approval and will be submitted for live play.

What makes 32min a reasonable amount of time? And what makes almost 4 days not a reasonable amount of time?

very nicely put.

gimil · Post by **gimil** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:11 pm

WidowMakers · Post by **WidowMakers** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 5:01 am

gimil wrote:What makes 32min a reasonable amount of time? And what makes almost 4 days not a reasonable amount of time?

I am not trying to start a posting war. I just want to explain and show what really happened.
======================================
05 Sep 2007 12:11-Posted Final Pics

05 Sep 2007 12:22-Wisse is concerned about map quality

05 Sep 2007 13:41-After discussion

Wisse wrote:ok sounds good to me

08 Sep 2007 21:51-Keyogi wants to see the latest images

08 Sep 2007 21:52-WidowMakers posts the same images from 05 Sep 2007 12:11

That is more than 2 days (Almost 3.5).

WM

oaktown · Post by **oaktown** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:07 pm

hey all, I haven't been keeping up with this one at all, but i thought I'd see what all the fuss is about. So you can consider me a fresh pair of eyes, or you can chuck me over a cliff for making comments after the map has been around for months.

For starters, nice work gimil. The map surface is very clean and the legend is clear and concise. I dig the font used for the titles - very euro. This should be a very playable map.

I do see a few little issues which, while they won't effect gameplay, might make the map just that much better. And if any of these items have already been brought up and shot down please disregard it... my bad for not reading all 26 pages. Here we go...
• since the Algarve Este and Portimao titles are already in the sea, why not put the Faro title in the sea as well? It will make the map look a bit cleaner, especially the small version.
• the black border lines are quite heavy, and at first glance give the impression of being unpassable borders.
• it's unfortunate that the Alentejo titles hits both the border and the army circle, but perhaps it's not worth fussing with at this late stage.
• I can already tell you that I'm going to attack Serpa when I think I'm attacking Estermoz, but then I still think Iceland is Scandinavia on the classic map.

Maybe a line from the title to the zone to erase any chance of confusion?
• Can the Braga title not go in the territory? Again, since the other titles in that region are inside it's nice to stay consistent if possible.
• I love the horse statue, but I can't make out what the other graphic is... it would be a shame if you put work into something that many of us can't appreciate.

Alright, that's it. I suspect that now many of you will target me with your wrath, but I bet Keyogi will appreciate the break.

Coleman · Post by **Coleman** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:43 pm

I've stayed nicely out of this but I agree with oaktown on almost every point. I don't find Estermoz/Serpa confusing. The fact that he does (a map maker) seems to indicate that others might, unless he was pretending to be ignorant. He apparently already knows the difference without playing to find out, so it seems to be a non-issue.

hulmey · Post by **hulmey** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:47 pm

what page is your map on????????????????????????????????????

Coleman · Post by **Coleman** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:58 pm

The map is on page 24.

_sioux_ · Post by **_sioux_** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 5:51 pm

WE WANT THE MAP ON!

gimil · Post by **gimil** » Tue Sep 18, 2007 12:23 pm

Can i get some feedback on this now.

Army circles - I feel there is no need or reason to remove them. Coleman put time into centering them all within hte army circles which wil hve been wasted becasue of the need to remove coodrinates once army circles are removed.

Names - The request to move names is impossbiel becasue there is no space at all to make the moves.

Anyone who wants small minimum changes please PM that was i can make those changes without slowing down the process of this map any further.

DiM · Post by **DiM** » Tue Sep 18, 2007 1:23 pm

gimil wrote:Can i get some feedback on this now.

Army circles - I feel there is no need or reason to remove them. Coleman put time into centering them all within hte army circles which wil hve been wasted becasue of the need to remove coodrinates once army circles are removed.

Names - The request to move names is impossbiel becasue there is no space at all to make the moves.

Anyone who wants small minimum changes please PM that was i can make those changes without slowing down the process of this map any further.

army circles aren't needed and the names should stay where they are. quenching should be done as soon as possible thus i suggest posting the images and links

Coleman · Post by **Coleman** » Tue Sep 18, 2007 2:05 pm

I'm okay with it if you need to axe the army circles gimil. People want to see the map without them anyway, so there isn't really anyway around it except to show them if you want us to be able to move the map forward.

It's possible people don't like it after they see it and you can keep the army circles in the end.

cairnswk · Post by **cairnswk** » Tue Sep 18, 2007 3:42 pm

Gimil....excuse me for not trolling back through the pages for this, but is that meant to be a straight line accent over covilha rather than a tilde...my research in google shows it should be a tilde...could you clarify please.

DiM · Post by **DiM** » Tue Sep 18, 2007 4:23 pm

it's a tilde like on portimao.

and you said you bought new glasses and a bigger display. tsk tsk

pepperonibread · Post by **pepperonibread** » Tue Sep 18, 2007 5:54 pm

DiM wrote:it's a tilde like on portimao.

and you said you bought new glasses and a bigger display. tsk tsk

I dunno, the text does look kind of wierd, like it was scaled down or something.

cairnswk · Post by **cairnswk** » Wed Sep 19, 2007 1:04 am

DiM wrote:it's a tilde like on portimao.

and you said you bought new glasses and a bigger display. tsk tsk

DiM, if it is a tilde then it is squashed because it doesn't have the same structure as the other one on portimao and looks to me like it is distorted, and yes i am looking at it woth new monitor and new glasses, that's why i can see the difference if you can't.

And i ask Gimil....if you would please advise me on this situation.

gimil · Post by **gimil** » Wed Sep 19, 2007 6:18 am

cairnswk wrote:
DiM wrote:it's a tilde like on portimao.

and you said you bought new glasses and a bigger display. tsk tsk
DiM, if it is a tilde then it is squashed because it doesn't have the same structure as the other one on portimao and looks to me like it is distorted, and yes i am looking at it woth new monitor and new glasses, that's why i can see the difference if you can't.

And i ask Gimil....if you would please advise me on this situation.

Im not really sure what symbols are what. But i did copy and paste this name from a portugese player who gave a list of name canges so im assuming its correct. As for it being distored and squashed, im not really sure who to go about fixing that without changing the font again.