[GP] [Rules] Eliminate Deferred Troops

[deathscythe30]

I haven't read much of this, but why would you want to reward someone for missing a turn by giving them multiplied armies?

[Awesome]

I haven't read much of this, but why would you want to reward someone for missing a turn by giving them multiplied armies?

Its not rewarding its compensating. Because otherwise they would be completely screwed over in a game just because they have a life outside of CC.



And mach, we all totally understand what your trying to say. That just isn't enough not to pursue this idea.
Sure, in adjacent and chained this will give you a slight "advantage" But being able to strategically fortify is not worth missing a turn! Overall it is more likely that you will be in an overall disadvantage because you probably lost territories during your missed turn.
The whole idea of this is to stop people from purposely missing turns, and this solves that.
Sure its not perfect.. but its a lot better than the current system, where you have a much larger advantage than just being able to have some extra fortifying abilities.

[wicked]

Thank you Awesome... better than I could've said it.

[Ishiro]

and can it be programmed so you get armies equal to what you get at the START of the turn (multiplied by missed turns) and not at the end. because some1 could miss 2 turns, get three armies at beginning and then take a continent for lets say +2 and then get 10 more armies at end of turn (instead of 6 which is what you should get in my opinion)

I'm sure lack could program it this way.

I don't know how lack has the game set up programming wise, but if nothing else he could add a table to the database for "deferred armies", when you start your turn it will say "Ishiro receives 3 armies for 10 territories" and then "Ishiro will receive 6 deferred armies for his 2 missed turns" Then just add a new phase... first you begin turn, then deploy, then attack, then fortify... when you click end fortification the page will check to see if you have deferred armies, and if so go into a 2nd deployment phase, when you end that your turn is over.

[mach]

Well, I'm glad everybody understand now. How about adding another stage at the beginning of a turn if someone has any missed turn armies. In this stage they would have to place their armies before they attack, but the armies wouldn't show up on the board until after the end their turn.

[wicked]

That would not work for freestyle (you might not own the territory at the end of your turn!), plus it would be really confusing!

[Awesome]

Well, I'm glad everybody understand now. How about adding another stage at the beginning of a turn if someone has any missed turn armies. In this stage they would have to place their armies before they attack, but the armies wouldn't show up on the board until after the end their turn.

Thats an interesting idea, although kind of making this a bit more complex.


But it wouldn't work in freestyle games. Say you pick where you are going to deploy them, but someone else attacks and conquers that territory during your turn. Then where do the armies go?

[Awesome]

fast posted!

[Iainarm]

I think we should keep it how it is. You don't get anymore armies for missing your turn than you do for taking it. Sometimes you get less than you would if you took your turn anyway. I don't see why people have such a problem with this.

[Larry Mal]

The armies can be spread out evenly over the next two turns or so.

[Aerial Attack]

A possible solution would require a new "territory (MissedTurn)" be added to ALL maps. Making it a territory would eliminate the ability to reinforce multiple locations. Another potential problem might be that when you are only able to fortify from territories with at least 2 armies to other connected territories.

Territory MissedTurn would need to be connected to every territory, unable to be fortified to/attacked from/attacked to, and able to fortify down to 0 armies (or always have 1+ armies). The number of "extra" armies received (pre-turn status [multiplied bonus minus initial bonus] or post-attack status [multiplied armies]) probably depends on the way in which fortifications are implemented (or how much extra effort it would take to pass that variable along).

Assuming that lack could program it this way, this would solve the getting "bonus" armies for missed turns AND would stay in line with game fortification settings.

As it stands right now, people complain because armies from missed turns are allowed to be deployed anywhere and then used for surprise attacks. The biggest argument that I can find against a 2nd deployment phase is similar to what mach wrote:

If you have adjacent or chained fortifications and you manage to take a continent requiring 2+ defense points - you can only fortify ONE of them (leaving you vulnerable to having your bonus revoked). A second deployment phase now allows to you equalize your defensive positions and protect your new bonus.

I realize that missing turns is a part of CC - life sometimes gets in the way. My proposed solution would have the minimum impact on the balance of the game, while still giving people armies for missed turns. Heck, it would even allow you to fort non-connected territories, which you can't currently do in ANY format.

Remember, the main reason why receiving armies for missed turns is a problem - is that people ABUSE the system. If no one abused it, there would be no problem.

[Aerial Attack]

I think we should keep it how it is. You don't get anymore armies for missing your turn than you do for taking it. Sometimes you get less than you would if you took your turn anyway. I don't see why people have such a problem with this.

The abuse is that many people can't counteract for what they don't see/expect. When someone misses a turn, you expect them to come back with doubled/tripled armies. Alas, you can't see where they are going to deploy them. Therefore - either you put all your armies in one place and your opponent just deploys elsewhere and hurts you OR you spread your armies out and your opponent deploys to the most advantageous location and breaks through on sheer numbers.

This rarely works in a 2 or 3 person game as the players can knock down your bonus and compensate enough for your actions. But, in 4+ player games each player also has to deal with the actions of the other players who have become more of a direct threat.

The final complaint is that this slows games down tremendously, as each missed turn takes a day. If there were a "Skip Turn" button that could be pressed - then people would know you missed on purpose (but at least they wouldn't have to wait a day). Obviously, part of the strategy for missing a turn is hoping the other players assume you're going to deadbeat. If you used the Skip Turn button, they'd know your coming back.

[FoolishFool]

I'll just post my idea even though I haven't exactly read through the whole thread and check if it's already been come up with and beaten down.

Make it so that armies are NOT multiplied by 2 or 3 on the first three rounds so you know if the player will deadbeat or not. If they start to miss turns after the third round you know that they're either trying to exploit the system or they have a perfectly good reason to missing them, but will in all likelihood come back to the game with multiplied armies.

Pros: Helps show the who's a deadbeat early, eliminates surprise

Cons: Owch if you miss one of the first three turns, doesn't speed up games, still "large army suddenly appearing" in later stages.

-The Fool

[MOBAJOBG]

The latest idea to deploy missed turn(s) armies after fortification may NOT be a good solution, at least in 1v1 freestyle games.

As it is already, people who are not aware of the de facto double turns dubious tactic as a high rank player has presented and explained in this link -> http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... ht=#594388 has caused a number of his victims to miss their turn involuntarily.

Don't you think there would be even more injustice afflicting the innocent should the above idea as proposed is implemented?

Note: If this almost awesome idea is chosen, then there must be a way to prevent those victims from missing their turn with less than a minute to finish a go.

[wicked]

yeah I'm not sure if any one solution will work for both sequential and freestyle, at least until we find a magic fix for freestyle. When talking this over with lack, he mentioned that it might have to be two different scenarios for sequential and freestyle, so keep that in mind.

[Burning Star IV]

So, just checking, is there really no one besides me and Derwidle who believes that getting your armies multiplied for turns you missed is ridiculous? I think that if you miss your turn it's your fault and have no one to blame for it but yourself. There's no reason why you should be afforded a chance to greatly rebuild what you've lost by getting your armies multiplied. Thoughts?

I think that the armies should be randomly distributed throughout any of the territories the turn-missing player has under his control at the end of his 24-hour period. This would make sure that the armies are not lost, necessarily, but the player cannot rely on turn-missing as a strategy.

[trk1994]

Let me first just say why it should not be so. If a person were playing a live game, in a tournament or something, would that person be allowed to say "No thanks, I'll just skip this turn so i can double up next turn.". No i don't think that would be allowable in the rules. If I'm wrong, please inform me. Take a look at game # 820455. I'm not saying this person did so on purpose, but doubling up his/her armies allowed him to take another player on the second round. Not to fair in my eyes.

[hschroed78]

First of all: I really like Brahms suggestion! It´s really annoying if someone completely unnecessarily delays the game to get some kind of tactical advance (or at least what he regards as this). It´s simply an abuse of the option to miss a turn without being kicked out of the game at once.

This is an OK solution in games with unlimited fortification, but a terrible idea for games with limited fortification.

A possible solution would require a new "territory (MissedTurn)" be added to ALL maps. Making it a territory would eliminate the ability to reinforce multiple locations. Another potential problem might be that when you are only able to fortify from territories with at least 2 armies to other connected territories.

I would suggest an advancement of the idea of Aerial Attack to eliminate the edge of deployment after attacking in games with limited fortification. You should count the 2nd deployment as fortification (so for adjacent and chained games there is no more fortification possible this round) and limit the 2nd deployment in these games to "all at once". As there is no additional territory needed to move the troops from, it should be easier to handle with the same result.

Indeed the suggestion from Aerial Attack is another slight disadvantage for the player who missed his turn, but also another motivation to don´t miss a turn.

[TKO]

I think that if you miss a turn you should forfeit any benifits from that turn, (with the exception of freestyle games where there are players that wait till the last second to take there turn.) Most of the time it just drags the game out. If your in a position that you have to do this, your tactics have failed anyways! so buck up and take the loss! quit prolonging the battle. Reguardless the outcome of this ploy it wont hide the fact that your a poor commander. DIE WITH HONOR

[FWBunny]

I haven't read through the previous nine pages, but I glanced over a couple of posts where people said they couldn't get a tactical advantage by suddenly being able to deploy one lot of six rather than two lots of three armies on the basis that they could have just done two lots of three and been in the same situation

However, this gives the player more flexibility. Instead of being restricted to the place where he placed the three armies last turn, he can place his six armies wherever he now chooses. The opponent doesn't have a chance to beef up the territory that is going to be placed under attack from the three armies from before and instead has to defend everywhere from a potential double force rather than defend everywhere from a normal force and one location from last turn's worth of armies.

In my opinion, for the first turn you miss, you should have no armies deducted (as per usual). From that point onwards, you should have 50% of your armies deducted (for that turn, rounded up). If you miss a turn worth three armies, you get to place five next round instead of six. If you miss a turn worth twenty armies, you get to place thirty instead of forty.

This allows some leeway for peoples' internet connection/computers crashing/acts of god/whatever, while stopping it from becoming an overused strategy

Woot... That was longer than I thought it would be... Hopefully I'm not just spitting out what someone else has already said

[insomniacdude]

In my opinion, for the first turn you miss, you should have no armies deducted (as per usual). From that point onwards, you should have 50% of your armies deducted (for that turn, rounded up). If you miss a turn worth three armies, you get to place five next round instead of six. If you miss a turn worth twenty armies, you get to place thirty instead of forty.

This allows some leeway for peoples' internet connection/computers crashing/acts of god/whatever, while stopping it from becoming an overused strategy

Truly the first balanced compromise idea that this problem has ever seen. I can and will get fully behind this idea.

[BaldAdonis]

Instead of being restricted to the place where he placed the three armies last turn, he can place his six armies wherever he now chooses....
In my opinion, for the first turn you miss, you should have no armies deducted (as per usual).

That still doesn't stop someone from getting 6 instead of 3. The best solution is to give the armies after fortification. That way, no one loses any armies for missing a turn, but no one gets enough to smash through defenses either.

[Yablonsky]

I totally disagree with this capability 100%.

It allows one to double up and have more power than any other player that is paying attention to their games and NOT missing their turns. If you miss your turn, to bad. You made your plans and missed your turn. You shouldn't be rewarded for this by giving you the armies you lost during that missed turn.

Depending on the game....you have 24 hours to play your turn....check them before you leave and right when you get back.

Just my 2 cents

[deathscythe30]

I think that the armies should be randomly distributed throughout any of the territories the turn-missing player has under his control at the end of his 24-hour period. This would make sure that the armies are not lost, necessarily, but the player cannot rely on turn-missing as a strategy.

I love that idea, that seems like a perfect middle ground.

[guyleroiuk]

I think unfortunately this is abused on purpose by certain players - when they have no strategic deal they deliberatley miss their turn (i must admit I even did it myself once) however, it is extremely frustrating for all teh -players waiting for someone who has no intention of playing - It is just slowing the games down and is most annoying in sequential -- I am vurrently playing against Warsteiner who having read the 8 negatives, may have a win rate of 51% (wippe do) but he simply abuses the system not playing when it suits and so the othger responses say giving up the gane when it doesnt go his way - not sure how one does this saying that

So yes, I went on hols and benefitted from the extra armies, but in the main would vote absolutely against this, in fact if someone doesnt make a move within 24 hours I would eliminate them - if their going on hol or wont be near a computer, dont start a game or understand that if there not finished you will be eliminated.