The Environment

[DeCaptain]

I would just like to throw this out there,

The Earth has been warming and cooling since it's beginning, going through tremendously warm and cool periods (ice ages, and warmer times), also, many scientists were saying back in the 70s that another Ice Age was coming, now they are switching to the Earth is warming. The planet has warmed and cooled all on it's own and caused the greatest extinctions throughout history.

Global warming can cause a premature ice age. If the ice caps were to melt it would drastically change the North Atlantic Current which helps to heat much of northern Europe.

[cawck mongler]

I AGREE WITH YOU.

Then why were you espoucing something I said would be incredibly difficult if not impossible?

You're right, there's to much we don't know about the environment, so trying to alter it purposefully in any way is doomed to failure. That's why hippy environmentalists are so stupid, they try to alter the environment in a way that is harmful or inconvenient to humans, and they don't even know if it will help the environment. Cutting back fuel emissions is fine, but frankly, we've cut back enough already (western nations anyways, China and India have a long ways to go), spewing nonsense about global warming is just plain stupid, as like you said, there are to many factors to determine if we're causing it or if it will be harmful.

... huh? The vast majority of efforts are dedicated to returning the environment o what it was, not transforming it into some percieved ideal form. The simplest way to do this is simply to stop polluting, as this will allow the environment to heal itself, without extensive human intervention.

The massive amounts of pollutants we started pumping into the atmosphere can be termed "extensive human intervention". However, the cessation of it cannot.

I wrote all that stuff to piss of Iliad and other retards who'd take it seriously.

Okay, you're right, we arn't trying to 'fix the environment' to much. But, we don't know whether or not global warming is being caused by us, so trying to stop it is stupid. Like I said, cutting back on our industry would still be a good thing regardless of whether or not it will slow global warming, however we've cut back enough already and now China and India need to do their part (especially India, atleast China's doing something about their population).

Instead of ignorant, retarded 12 year olds bitching about the US and capitalism, I'd like to see better informed people bitching about the real problems. Namely the rich elite, who push all the ecological damage. Its not a economic theory that's fucking us, its fucking rich asses who exploit the system regardless of its economic model. Normal people have to start pushing to keep the rich in check, instead of making useless environmental regulations that industry can easily bypass and only end up hurting the poor.

[Iliad]

I AGREE WITH YOU.

Then why were you espoucing something I said would be incredibly difficult if not impossible?

You're right, there's to much we don't know about the environment, so trying to alter it purposefully in any way is doomed to failure. That's why hippy environmentalists are so stupid, they try to alter the environment in a way that is harmful or inconvenient to humans, and they don't even know if it will help the environment. Cutting back fuel emissions is fine, but frankly, we've cut back enough already (western nations anyways, China and India have a long ways to go), spewing nonsense about global warming is just plain stupid, as like you said, there are to many factors to determine if we're causing it or if it will be harmful.

... huh? The vast majority of efforts are dedicated to returning the environment o what it was, not transforming it into some percieved ideal form. The simplest way to do this is simply to stop polluting, as this will allow the environment to heal itself, without extensive human intervention.

The massive amounts of pollutants we started pumping into the atmosphere can be termed "extensive human intervention". However, the cessation of it cannot.

I wrote all that stuff to piss of Iliad and other retards who'd take it seriously.

So you just trolled and wasted our time?

[WalrusesRN]

Anyone who thinks that we've cut back on greenhouse gases enough needs to get their facts strait. We haven't made any major resolutions to cut back the amount we need or even to set up a time table to gradually reduce emissions. Fuel standards for gasoline powered cars are not strict at all, and the only reason we're getting more mpg in our cars is because the steadily high price of gasoline has become made mpg a more important consideration when buying a car. Even if we stopped emitting ALL greenhouse gases immediately (which we are a long, long, long, long, long way from doing), it would take decades for the earth to right itself to gases that will provide an environment better for us to live in. We've already seen the results of Global Warming increase the force of hurricanes and do major damage to certain American cities. It's best for the world if we stop denying what is an obvious truth and start doing something about it. Even the people who say that humans aren't causing global warming see that it IS warming. WE know that greenhouse gases such as carbon do this. I don't see what all the confusion is about. We know what the problem is, and we know that by changing the energy standards of our country we can begin to solve it.

[Nobunaga]

Anyone who thinks that we've cut back on greenhouse gases enough needs to get their facts strait. We haven't made any major resolutions to cut back the amount we need or even to set up a time table to gradually reduce emissions. Fuel standards for gasoline powered cars are not strict at all, and the only reason we're getting more mpg in our cars is because the steadily high price of gasoline has become made mpg a more important consideration when buying a car. Even if we stopped emitting ALL greenhouse gases immediately (which we are a long, long, long, long, long way from doing), it would take decades for the earth to right itself to gases that will provide an environment better for us to live in. We've already seen the results of Global Warming increase the force of hurricanes and do major damage to certain American cities. It's best for the world if we stop denying what is an obvious truth and start doing something about it. Even the people who say that humans aren't causing global warming see that it IS warming. WE know that greenhouse gases such as carbon do this. I don't see what all the confusion is about. We know what the problem is, and we know that by changing the energy standards of our country we can begin to solve it.

Appearing before the Commons Committee on Environment and Sustainable Development last year, Carleton University paleoclimatologist Professor Tim Patterson testified, "There is no meaningful correlation between CO2 levels and Earth's temperature over this [geologic] time frame. In fact, when CO2 levels were over ten times higher than they are now, about 450 million years ago, the planet was in the depths of the absolute coldest period in the last half billion years." Patterson asked the committee, "On the basis of this evidence, how could anyone still believe that the recent relatively small increase in CO2 levels would be the major cause of the past century's modest warming?"

... And Global Warming seems to have no direct impact on hurricane frequency or intensity. ...

... The 1930's was the hottest decade in North America in recorded history...

... I could go on.. I won't deny global warming, but neither will I fall in lock-step with "popular opinion".

... More science, g*ddammit, less f*cking politics is what I want.

... (edit)... and Al Gore is first in line now for a Nobel Peace Prize (so say news pages)... it's insane.

...

[Stopper]

... I could go on..

Don't. Quote-mining from obscure scientists, who probably wouldn't stand by something they said, off the cuff, in front of a Canadian committee, some time ago, doesn't mean very much.

I won't deny global warming, but neither will I fall in lock-step with "popular opinion".

Well, you appear to be denying it. I wasn't aware that popular opinion was in agreement with the scientific consensus of human-induced warming of the Earth's climate. Even in countries where people tend to tell the pollsters they accept the theory of human-induced climate change, they don't seem to change their behaviour at all, or even vote for political parties who would actually do anything about it. So, you're very much in the majority, I'd say, Nobunaga.

[Nobunaga]

... I could go on..

Don't. Quote-mining from obscure scientists, who probably wouldn't stand by something they said, off the cuff, in front of a Canadian committee, some time ago, doesn't mean very much.

I won't deny global warming, but neither will I fall in lock-step with "popular opinion".

Well, you appear to be denying it. I wasn't aware that popular opinion was in agreement with the scientific consensus of human-induced warming of the Earth's climate. Even in countries where people tend to tell the pollsters they accept the theory of human-induced climate change, they don't seem to change their behaviour at all, or even vote for political parties who would actually do anything about it. So, you're very much in the majority, I'd say, Nobunaga.

... CO2 has nada to do with temperature increase. That's the big lie people are so eager to believe...

... It's so political now, science doesn't stand much of a chance edging in. The guru of global warming himself has refused "debates" with climatologists since "An Inconvenient Truth". He cannot stand up to true science, I guess . . . and somehow nobody cares (or knows)... "Gore Backs Out of Climate Debate" is a headline you'll never see in American media.

... Global Warming, Illegal Immigration, US Foreign Policy, et al, are nothing but tools used by the media now to cast the Republican Party in a bad light, for the cause of getting Hillary Clinton in the White House (they love that woman). Think about it, Republicans are associated with big business - killers of our pristine environment. On Illegal Immigration they are often portrayed as racist, and concerning Foreign Policy.. well, that's all to do now with Iraq and Iran, Gitmo Prison, torture, etc... That's US news.

... swerving off topic ...

[unriggable]

... I could go on..

Don't. Quote-mining from obscure scientists, who probably wouldn't stand by something they said, off the cuff, in front of a Canadian committee, some time ago, doesn't mean very much.

I won't deny global warming, but neither will I fall in lock-step with "popular opinion".

Well, you appear to be denying it. I wasn't aware that popular opinion was in agreement with the scientific consensus of human-induced warming of the Earth's climate. Even in countries where people tend to tell the pollsters they accept the theory of human-induced climate change, they don't seem to change their behaviour at all, or even vote for political parties who would actually do anything about it. So, you're very much in the majority, I'd say, Nobunaga.

... CO2 has nada to do with temperature increase. That's the big lie people are so eager to believe...

... It's so political now, science doesn't stand much of a chance edging in. The guru of global warming himself has refused "debates" with climatologists since "An Inconvenient Truth". He cannot stand up to true science, I guess . . . and somehow nobody cares (or knows)... "Gore Backs Out of Climate Debate" is a headline you'll never see in American media.

... Global Warming, Illegal Immigration, US Foreign Policy, et al, are nothing but tools used by the media now to cast the Republican Party in a bad light, for the cause of getting Hillary Clinton in the White House (they love that woman). Think about it, Republicans are associated with big business - killers of our pristine environment. On Illegal Immigration they are often portrayed as racist, and concerning Foreign Policy.. well, that's all to do now with Iraq and Iran, Gitmo Prison, torture, etc... That's US news.

... swerving off topic ...

Actually Global Warming is there to explain why temperatures are higher than ever every single year. It's not a scare tactic, we have plenty of those. You'd think the people who are right-wing would believe in Global Warming if it was a scare tactic, but their lobbyists at GM don't want them to so they f*ck that idea.

I posted a graph a few pages back, I could post it again.

[Guiscard]

... CO2 has nada to do with temperature increase. That's the big lie people are so eager to believe...

... It's so political now, science doesn't stand much of a chance edging in. The guru of global warming himself has refused "debates" with climatologists since "An Inconvenient Truth". He cannot stand up to true science, I guess . . . and somehow nobody cares (or knows)... "Gore Backs Out of Climate Debate" is a headline you'll never see in American media.

... Global Warming, Illegal Immigration, US Foreign Policy, et al, are nothing but tools used by the media now to cast the Republican Party in a bad light, for the cause of getting Hillary Clinton in the White House (they love that woman). Think about it, Republicans are associated with big business - killers of our pristine environment. On Illegal Immigration they are often portrayed as racist, and concerning Foreign Policy.. well, that's all to do now with Iraq and Iran, Gitmo Prison, torture, etc... That's US news.

... swerving off topic ...

No... I'm fairly sure that one, at least, has some fairly severe consequences outside of the US.

But this is my main question... What have we got to lose by dramatically reducing emissions and changing the way our economy impacts on the environment?

Hey, I tell you what, if you're right and we reduce emissions anyway you'll get that warm glowing feeling when you're 80and know you were right and we were taken in by the crap.

And if your wrong... well... lets hope you're not....

Either way, I can't see the negative side of the vast vast majority of advice given to governments and industry in regards to climate change.

[Nobunaga]

... CO2 has nada to do with temperature increase. That's the big lie people are so eager to believe...

... It's so political now, science doesn't stand much of a chance edging in. The guru of global warming himself has refused "debates" with climatologists since "An Inconvenient Truth". He cannot stand up to true science, I guess . . . and somehow nobody cares (or knows)... "Gore Backs Out of Climate Debate" is a headline you'll never see in American media.

... Global Warming, Illegal Immigration, US Foreign Policy, et al, are nothing but tools used by the media now to cast the Republican Party in a bad light, for the cause of getting Hillary Clinton in the White House (they love that woman). Think about it, Republicans are associated with big business - killers of our pristine environment. On Illegal Immigration they are often portrayed as racist, and concerning Foreign Policy.. well, that's all to do now with Iraq and Iran, Gitmo Prison, torture, etc... That's US news.

... swerving off topic ...

No... I'm fairly sure that one, at least, has some fairly severe consequences outside of the US.

But this is my main question... What have we got to lose by dramatically reducing emissions and changing the way our economy impacts on the environment?

Hey, I tell you what, if you're right and we reduce emissions anyway you'll get that warm glowing feeling when you're 80and know you were right and we were taken in by the crap.

And if your wrong... well... lets hope you're not....

Either way, I can't see the negative side of the vast vast majority of advice given to governments and industry in regards to climate change.

... Hell, there's nothing to lose by reducing emissions. I'm all for it. I am just so very tired of this being a a right vs left political fight. I would pay money to see 2 high-grade scientists debate the issue... with an "interpreter" present of course, to explain their arguments in language we can all grasp.

... Al Gore is the poster child for Global Warming, at least in the US. This is the man who "had an election stolen" from him by "the evil Republicans". Anything that man touches is a political powder keg and I'm sick of listening to the explosion. Also, anything this guy touches is pure gold to the hyper left moveon.org crowd, mediamatters, etc... Which only makes it worse.

... People who question global warming (question, not even deny) are portrayed as one of two types in the media today: 1. People with too much invested in big business/politics to admit the truth. .. or 2. Stupid, uneducated hillbillies living in trailer parks, watching Nascar and riding ATVs.

... Science should welcome debate... perhaps debate is the wrong word... alternate theories.

... In my most humble opinion, anyway.

... <edit> ... and now there is talk of things like a "Carbon Footprint Tax" and the like. Hell, when you start talking about taking my money, I want more than Hollywood Science as a reason.

...

[GreekPorn]

You would be, cawck mongler. You're refuting pretty solid evidence with some bullshit graphs and some outdated points. The earth is warming and there is nothing you can do to stop it other than stop leaving your car on in the morning when you aren't in it so you can get the AC to work.

Yeah to bad the fucking environment kills people, don't believe me? Just look at all the tropical deseases that kill hundreds of millions every year. We'd really be better off as a race if we just completely wiped out the environment and created our own. It wouldn't be so hard, we can keep all the animals we need alive on our own, we could have kelp farms supply all our oxygen and we could probably balance everything else out through science. A perfect man made world.

Prove me wrong.

Have you just posted what I think you posted?

That just proves how you don't know anything about the environment. Do you realize how many actions there are happening? Even dead things are a part of the environment. If you think that you should get out of your basement walk in a forest and then realize how wrong you are.

What exactly would go wrong? We can re-fertilise our own soil without having animals shit all over it, forests don't actually do anything for us except supply lumber and oxygen (we'd still have tree farms set aside in order to get us lumber obviously). What are the negative effects? We simply wipe out everything not helping us, then plant our kelp and forests and whatever else we need to keep functioning and go on from there, it wouldn't be costly at all, considering how much more efficient things would be and how much more land would be available without faggy jungles.

But of course you have all these unbacked notions of preserving the environment at all costs...

I miss cawck mongler