Jesus Freaks...why do you believe?

beezer · Post by **beezer** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:02 pm

got tonkaed wrote:first post after you i guess, you dont see a logical inconsistency at all with one provision against taking something that is debatably a life, and actually taking the life of someone who is certainly alive?

Nope.

got tonkaed · Post by **got tonkaed** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:05 pm

beezer wrote:
got tonkaed wrote:first post after you i guess, you dont see a logical inconsistency at all with one provision against taking something that is debatably a life, and actually taking the life of someone who is certainly alive?
Nope.

fair enough.

Ask a question....get an answer.

However you could at least have made the arguement the choice/no death penalty at least follows the same contradiction under your standards for life.

luns101 · Post by **luns101** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:00 pm

Napoleon Ier wrote:Excellent!

Il live up in headington

Hello Napoleon. Nice to have France represented here.

Napoleon Ier · Post by **Napoleon Ier** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:05 pm

Good evening Luns

Thank you for our welcome

as I have already said, I admire your choice of avatar.

CrazyAnglican · Post by **CrazyAnglican** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:56 pm

satanspaladin wrote:Can some one tell me why self termination is a sin .
Jesus gave him self up for crucifixion of mankind's sin is this not the same as some one taking there own life .

If i person takes there owe life with the intention of bettering another persons life is this not the same self sacrifices as Jesus for man .

I was told before in this thread that no act of sin was unredeemable as long as one was truly
repentant ,so how can one repent suicide if one is dead .

I think the sin associated with suicide is despair. The failure to believe that God will provide. Christ allowed himself to be slain in the knowledge (as you rightly stated) that this would benefit the world. THere are other instances where suicide would not be a sin. A soldier throwing himself on a grenade to shield others from the blast, etc. Christ did also say "Man hath no greater love than to lay down his life for his brother". This is a distinction from a suicide, which benefits no one and merely leaves an empty place in the lives of everyone who loves the person committing it.

mybike_yourface · Post by **mybike_yourface** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:44 pm

CrazyAnglican wrote:
satanspaladin wrote:Can some one tell me why self termination is a sin .
Jesus gave him self up for crucifixion of mankind's sin is this not the same as some one taking there own life .

If i person takes there owe life with the intention of bettering another persons life is this not the same self sacrifices as Jesus for man .

I was told before in this thread that no act of sin was unredeemable as long as one was truly
repentant ,so how can one repent suicide if one is dead .

I think the sin associated with suicide is despair. The failure to believe that God will provide. Christ allowed himself to be slain in the knowledge (as you rightly stated) that this would benefit the world. THere are other instances where suicide would not be a sin. A soldier throwing himself on a grenade to shield others from the blast, etc. Christ did also say "Man hath no greater love than to lay down his life for his brother". This is a distinction from a suicide, which benefits no one and merely leaves an empty place in the lives of everyone who loves the person committing it.

what about killing your own son?

CrazyAnglican · Post by **CrazyAnglican** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:37 pm

mybike_yourface wrote: what about killing your own son?

Hey mybike,

It's been a while where ya' been?

In answer, I'd need more information. I think I know where you're going, but would like to be sure before replying. Can you elaborate?

Napoleon Ier · Post by **Napoleon Ier** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:40 pm

killing your own son can only ever be wrong. I hnce have extreme difficulty swallowing Genesis22 or wherever it is

CrazyAnglican · Post by **CrazyAnglican** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:00 pm

That was one of the possible situations.

Okay, right or wrong here is my take on that story. Abraham is a pivotal figure in all history. The father of Israel and three religions whose adherents comprise more than half (two thirds ?) of the human race. As such he, and his faith, are vital to God's plan for the world.
I believe God knew Abraham's capacity for faith and leadership. God knew he was up to the tasks and challenges that would be put before him. Abraham, on the other hand, needed to know the depth of his own faith in order to fulfill his part of God's plan.
As a father, I can think of nothing more horrible than being forced to kill one of my own family members, especially my own children. It goes against everything I am socially, genetically, morally, and intellectually programmed to do. I assume that Abraham loved Isaac with every bit as much I love my children. If he did not love Isaac, then this test would have been meaningless.
I can also see in this story, a key figure in history who discovers within himself the capacity to put everything aside for the love of God. Once he shows that willingness, everything and more are given to him. Abraham is then ready to take his place as the spritual father of billions. He was ready to give up his own son (just like God does in the crucifixtion) and in that willingness he becomes spiritual father to a mulititude just as God promises him. Not to mention Isaac himself lives to become a leader.

There is certainly much to discuss here; this is merely my interpretation.

vtmarik · Post by **vtmarik** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:02 pm

Can you explain about the questionable morality surrounding God, The Devil, and Job?

CrazyAnglican · Post by **CrazyAnglican** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:06 pm

Hi vtmarik,

I took a stab at this earlier in this thread. Can I get away with just posting the link?

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... c&start=45

beezer · Post by **beezer** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:11 pm

got tonkaed wrote:You could at least have made the arguement the choice/no death penalty at least follows the same contradiction under your standards for life.

I could have. I would have used scripture to back up my point. If I'm not mistaken though, you do not believe the Bible to be without error and authoritative in all matters of your life. So if I started quoted scripture to back up my points you probably would have responded with something like, "actually there's a fair enough amount of evidence to question the validity of the Bible" or something like that.

So I thought I'd just tell you my opinion.

vtmarik · Post by **vtmarik** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:14 pm

CrazyAnglican wrote:Hi vtmarik,

I took a stab at this earlier in this thread. Can I get away with just posting the link?

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... c&start=45

Ok, I have a follow-up to that and I want to know your thoughts.

Here we have Job, a man that never cursed God for allowing all of these things to happen to him. He even apologized and repented for things he never did in an attempt to get the effects to go away. God did this to prove that Satan couldn't shake everyone, i'm assuming.

Is this an object lesson about one man's unshakable faith, an attempt to teach man to be wholly masochistic towards a seemingly uncaring God, or that if God lets this sort of thing happen you should be happy that he's using your misery to prove a point?

luns101 · Post by **luns101** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:29 pm

satanspaladin wrote:Dear jf .

I would first like to say thank you for the well wish i got wile in hospital .

I was reading the bible in hospital and for all its brutality in parts and its seemingly endless
contradiction on how we are to live.

I found a passage in the Corinthians that was truly the only thing the bible need to say to me for me to have any faith in the words of god .

"I may be able to speak the languages of man and even of angels ,but if i have no love,
my speech is no more than a noisy gong or a clanging bell".

I may have all the faith needed to move mountains- but if i have no love i am nothing.

Well i don't have the faith of the bible but i do have love , i hope he find that acceptable.

I hope you enjoy reading it more. That's great.

CrazyAnglican · Post by **CrazyAnglican** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:31 pm

vtmarik wrote:
CrazyAnglican wrote:Hi vtmarik,

I took a stab at this earlier in this thread. Can I get away with just posting the link?

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... c&start=45
Ok, I have a follow-up to that and I want to know your thoughts.

Here we have Job, a man that never cursed God for allowing all of these things to happen to him. He even apologized and repented for things he never did in an attempt to get the effects to go away. God did this to prove that Satan couldn't shake everyone, i'm assuming.

Is this an object lesson about one man's unshakable faith, an attempt to teach man to be wholly masochistic towards a seemingly uncaring God, or that if God lets this sort of thing happen you should be happy that he's using your misery to prove a point?

I think at its heart this story challenges the "Why do bad things happen to good people?" idea. They just do; nobody, no matter how smart, faithful, wonderful, or intelligent will make it through life without trials. The story shows that even Job can go though temporary tribulation (and later, Christ himself). While your three options might certainly apply; They all seem to ignore the possibility of blessings for one's patience in enduring the tribulations of life. Often in life tribulations lead to greater blessings later on, as they did for Job.

I see in Job this lesson. I can cry and rail against God for the misery in my life and the misery in the world, but in the end it will accomplish nothing. If, like Job, I'm patient; the tribulations will likely pass, and I'll certainly be able to find something more constructive to do (than griping) while I'm enduring the hard times in my life.

CoffeeCream · Post by **CoffeeCream** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:42 pm

Alright luns, I'll take you up on your offer to discuss. Basically the same question as I've proposed before. If God really wants to be personally involved in our lives then why doesn't he just make himself known to us? It would be easy for him to, right?

Backglass · Post by **Backglass** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:48 pm

CoffeeCream wrote:Alright luns, I'll take you up on your offer to discuss. Basically the same question as I've proposed before. If God really wants to be personally involved in our lives then why doesn't he just make himself known to us? It would be easy for him to, right?

I agree and good luck with this line of questioning.

I never got anything more than "He has better things to do", "He has nothing to prove", etc.

luns101 · Post by **luns101** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:55 pm

CoffeeCream wrote:Alright luns, I'll take you up on your offer to discuss. Basically the same question as I've proposed before. If God really wants to be personally involved in our lives then why doesn't he just make himself known to us? It would be easy for him to, right?

He has made Himself known to us in 3 basic ways:

1. Through His creation
2. Through His Holy Word - The Bible
3. Through His Son - Jesus Christ

If the complexity of our world & that which is in it does not convince you then you probably will reject the 2nd. If you reject the 2nd you most likely will say you don't believe in the earthly ministry of Jesus in point #3.

Numerous prophecies in the Old Testament clearly describe things which only Jesus Christ fulfilled. I can list them for you if you want. The Bible leaves no question as to who the Messiah would be and what he would do. Jesus fulfilled those requirements.

So then what's the problem?...Mankind tries to set up the rules by which he will acknowledge God. It doesn't work that way. Mankind says "Show me and I'll believe". God says, "Believe and I'll show you". Many people refuse to take God at His word because they think that action of belief is a "blind" faith. Others have different reasons for not believing. It all basically comes down to "I refuse to submit to you, God". I hope that you will take God at His word.

Let me know if there's anything else you want to know. Glad to talk with you.

Snorri1234 · Post by **Snorri1234** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:20 am

beezer wrote:
got tonkaed wrote:You could at least have made the arguement the choice/no death penalty at least follows the same contradiction under your standards for life.
I could have. I would have used scripture to back up my point. If I'm not mistaken though, you do not believe the Bible to be without error and authoritative in all matters of your life. So if I started quoted scripture to back up my points you probably would have responded with something like, "actually there's a fair enough amount of evidence to question the validity of the Bible" or something like that.

So I thought I'd just tell you my opinion.

It's not about the bible being not authoratative. It just follows from: Murder is always bad.

MR. Nate · Post by **MR. Nate** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 7:30 am

vtmarik wrote:Here we have Job, a man that never cursed God for allowing all of these things to happen to him. He even apologized and repented for things he never did in an attempt to get the effects to go away. God did this to prove that Satan couldn't shake everyone, i'm assuming.

Is this an object lesson about one man's unshakable faith, an attempt to teach man to be wholly masochistic towards a seemingly uncaring God, or that if God lets this sort of thing happen you should be happy that he's using your misery to prove a point?

I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and one thing that God sees that we don't is the long term. Christians aren't supposed to worry about the uncontrollable situations that affect them in this life, not only because God is in control, but because we have a responsibility to become more like Christ now for a future reward.

(Before you get all bent out of shape about a mystical response, hear me out)

God has said: Live for me now and you'll be rewarded in eternity. For the Christian, life is a very short prelude to eternity. We'll willingly sacrifice the here and now for the long term. Like Paul said, if there is no ressurection, we of all men are to be most pitied.

satanspaladin · Post by **satanspaladin** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:02 am

Jf I'm sorry all i ever do is ask you Questions, I hope im not bothering you two much .

But can you tell me why the churches ask for money when in in Matthew its says .

“do not store up riches for your selves on earth”

“no one can be a slave of two masters he will hate one and love other ,
he will be loyal to one and despise the other. You cannot serve both god and money.

So why are the churches one of the most rich organization on the planet .

Backglass · Post by **Backglass** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:49 am

luns101 wrote:[It all basically comes down to "I refuse to submit to you, God". I hope that you will take God at His word.

No...it basically all comes down to the fact that no one has ever seen this creature. How can this be anything else other than blind faith?
I hope you will take reality at face value.

Jasmine_me · Post by **Jasmine_me** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:51 am

Backglass wrote:
luns101 wrote:[It all basically comes down to "I refuse to submit to you, God". I hope that you will take God at His word.
No...it basically all comes down to the fact that no one has ever seen this creature. Why can't christians take reality at face value?

God is not a creature...

Backglass · Post by **Backglass** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:00 am

Jasmine_me wrote:
Backglass wrote:
luns101 wrote:[It all basically comes down to "I refuse to submit to you, God". I hope that you will take God at His word.
No...it basically all comes down to the fact that no one has ever seen this creature. Why can't christians take reality at face value?
God is not a creature...

OK...then what is it? Got a picture?

Jasmine_me · Post by **Jasmine_me** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:03 am

Backglass wrote:
Jasmine_me wrote:
Backglass wrote:
luns101 wrote:[It all basically comes down to "I refuse to submit to you, God". I hope that you will take God at His word.
No...it basically all comes down to the fact that no one has ever seen this creature. Why can't christians take reality at face value?
God is not a creature...
OK...then what is it? Got a picture?

In the bible it says..do not test your lord God.. so you asked for the picture.. if i have and showed it to you.. then you will believe and if i dont oyu wont.. so meaning you're kinda testing him..and its consider a sin..