Jesus Freaks...why do you believe?

[Beastly]

God also cannot tell time, and he also cannot Lie...

He can choose however what he wants to create.

He choose to allow us free will.... for the purpose of letting us choose to love him.

Love is always a choice. And why do you think he can't create someone to forcefully love him? He choose not to because of the wisdom he has.

You become born again.. thats when your choice shows.

[Guiscard]

An all-loving God who knows everything and has the power to do anything cannot let suffering happen.

This raises an interesting question "Can you love someone and let them suffer?" I'd say certainly yes. You will not enjoy their suffering, but in order for them to avoid future, more severe, suffering it is possible. For instance I love my children and I have them vaccinated. At the time, they would not think I was being benevolent for helping the doctor give them the shot, but I am both loving and allowing them to suffer.

That argument is fine for human beings but not for an all-powerful God. Essentially it comes down to the 'choosing the right way' thing. He could create us all identical, perfect and already in heavan. He doesn't. We have to make a choice, and it is a choice which could be avoided. As an all-loving God he could have stopped Hitler going to hell, but he didn't. Therefore he wants us to choose, and the rest is my previous argument.

If, by making your own personal choice to live a good life and therefore reach heavan, you achieve a perfection God CANNOT give then heis not all-powerful.

If, by following the path that he has provided to salvation, I make it to heaven, then I owe thanks to God for making it possible. If you were lost in the woods wouldn't you thank someone who left signs for you to get home? My belief that God is all-powerful does not imply he will use that power to make everything as easy for me as possible (ie the vaccination example earlier).

He should do, though. Else he is not all-loving. If he holds back it implies that you will gain something greater by suffering some, and then getting a greater benefit. If he is all powerful he could give you that benefit.

If he COULD give you that but chooses not to he is not all-loving. Simple.

Once again the path is chosen and well marked. If I choose not follow it, it is not because he doesn't love me. It's because I don't have faith in him.

The point is that he could create you with an innate faith in him. Why do you need to choose? Again, if it is to reach a higher love than one simply forced then it implies God is not all powerful.

[Beastly]

From what I understand from God, is his will is not for us to have suffering. He says I am the god that heals you.

[Guiscard]

God also cannot tell time, and he also cannot Lie...

He can choose however what he wants to create.

He choose to allow us free will.... for the purpose of letting us choose to love him.

Love is always a choice. And why do you think he can't create someone to forcefully love him? He choose not to because of the wisdom he has.

He chose not to because of the wisdom he has? What does that mean?

So he CAN create a love equal to that of a chosen love.

Then we have two possible situations:

a) He creates everyone with that highest possible love. We all do the right thing and we all go to heaven. Everything is right. He is all-Loving.

b) He makes us choose our path in order to gain, or not gain, the highest possible love. This leads to some getting into heaven but it also leads to billions suffering, it leads to genocide, rape, murder, torture, war... Is this a more loving approach? Really? Because the reasonable argument says he would only take this approach if approach A was impossible.

[Beastly]

Really, It's pretty simple...

You either choose to Love God, and be born again, or you don't....

It's not that hard of a concept.

Religion however has made things very uptight and confusing. It really is simple to understand.

by Wisdom I meant, God already knew that if his creation was made to love him, then there was no purpose for us to be created. We are created to love god. But it had to be a choice, or it is not real. Just like if you forced someone to love you. You can't. Because we were not created to be that way.

God loves all. It's your choice if you choose to love him back.

[Guiscard]

Really, It's pretty simple...

You either choose to Love God, and be born again, or you don't....

It's not that hard of a concept.

Religion however has made things very uptight and confusing. It really is simple to understand.

by Wisdom I meant, God already knew that if his creation was made to love him, then there was no purpose for us to be created. We are created to love god. But it had to be a choice, or it is not real. Just like if you forced someone to love you. You can't. Because we were not created to be that way.

God loves all. It's your choice if you choose to love him back.

Hang on... A minute ago you said he COULD create exaclt the same love in people...

So can he or can't he?

[Neoteny]

God also cannot tell time, and he also cannot Lie...

He can choose however what he wants to create.

He choose to allow us free will.... for the purpose of letting us choose to love him.

Love is always a choice. And why do you think he can't create someone to forcefully love him? He choose not to because of the wisdom he has.

You become born again.. thats when your choice shows.

It's 11:13 eastern time. Am I better than god?

The ideas of "real" love and "fake" love are moot. You're assuming that choosing to love someone is better than loving someone inherently. I have always loved my mother, even though she has been a shitty mother. Is my unchosen love for my mother less of a love than my "chosen" love for my stopmother? Of course not. And an even more absurd concept is the idea that you can choose to love someone. I love my girlfriend, but I didn't choose to love her. I loved my ex-girlfriend, but I didn't choose to stop. Believe me, if I could choose to love god, I would. I wouldn't have to deal with discrimination, irritating Christmas music, and other things that suck for atheists. Your entire argument is a red herring and noone has answered my other question.

[Beastly]

He can... He chose not to for the reason I have explained over and over again.

[Beastly]

Love is always a choice...


You choose who you love, and who you don't want to love.

And I am sorry if I missed the question you were asking, if you were asking me, I didn't see it.

[Guiscard]

He can... He chose not to for the reason I have explained over and over again.

Well just humour me, because you haven't answered any of my points either.

He CAN create exactly the same kind of love as a chosen love but he chooses not to even though this will lead to suffering, death, war... it will mean a significant number of people go to hell...

Can you explain to me why he would choose that option when he could create exactly the same love in people and have them all go to heaven?

And if your answer is 'because a a chosen love is better than a created love' then you have just contradicted yourself, and furthermore you're arguing that God is not all-powerful.

[Neoteny]

Love is always a choice...


You choose who you love, and who you don't want to love.

And I am sorry if I missed the question you were asking, if you were asking me, I didn't see it.

Actually, looking back at my questions, you kinda did. Though not to my satisfaction. Nevermind. My bad. And I'm not saying Christians don't use bad language, I'm just noting that Robin Williams tends to.

However, I feel bad for the people you love, if you had to choose to love them. Religious people tend to tell me that emotion doesn't need reason. You are telling me it does. A refreshing viewpoint, but I find that it doesn't support your cause.

[Beastly]

I don't know how to explain it any better to you...

I am sorry you don't get it.

If we all were made to love god, by god. Then he wouldn't have true love, because it was forced and made by himself. The love people have for god is a chosen love. Not forced... maybe someone else can put in a different perspective than I can.

God does not create all the ugly things on earth. And war is stupid.

[Neoteny]

And war is stupid.

QFT FINALLY!!! We agree on something.

[Guiscard]

I don't know how to explain it any better to you...

I am sorry you don't get it.

If we all were made to love god, by god. Then he wouldn't have true love, because it was forced and made by himself. The love people have for god is a chosen love. Not forced... maybe someone else can put in a different perspective than I can.

God does not create all the ugly things on earth. And war is stupid.

I do get it, you just don't seem to understand the logic.

OK. Thats fine. So you are saying that a chosen love is greater than any love God could create?

Yes or No.

[Beastly]

I don't know, the answer to that, because I am not god, and I don't know anything about forcing someone to love me, because it is impossible for any of us to do that. However, for god, yes I believe he could create that. But what would be the purpose of doing that.

I guess believing the way I do, you would have to find out why the god of the bible created us at all.

[Neoteny]

I don't know how to explain it any better to you...

I am sorry you don't get it.

If we all were made to love god, by god. Then he wouldn't have true love, because it was forced and made by himself. The love people have for god is a chosen love. Not forced... maybe someone else can put in a different perspective than I can.

God does not create all the ugly things on earth. And war is stupid.

I do get it, you just don't seem to understand the logic.

OK. Thats fine. So you are saying that a chosen love is greater than any love God could create?

Yes or No.

If I were god, I would create a love that is like a constant orgasm.

Uh oh... I'm starting to sound like all these presidential candidates that have been providing me with amusing reading for the past week. So the logical conclusion would be...

Neoteny for god in '08!
"Who needs virgins? Neoteny gives you a constant orgasm! (Especially for the ladies...")

(On an off-topic note: Guiscard, I have to say your advertising of luns has been some of the best reading this week, other than my posts of course )

[Guiscard]

I don't know, the answer to that, because I am not god, and I don't know anything about forcing someone to love me, because it is impossible for any of us to do that. However, for god, yes I believe he could create that. But what would be the purpose of doing that.

I guess believing the way I do, you would have to find out why the god of the bible created us at all.

The problem, as I have stated several times, is that if he can create a love equal to that of a chosen love then he has no reason whatsoever, as an all-loving God, to make us choose and therefore leave us open to the suffering in the world.

If you simply don't know the answer then you should have said five posts ago. I don't have to know how to force someone to love me to logically and reasonably think the concept through. I know personally that I can force my kids to love me, but them choosing to love me of their own accord will always be better. I cannot create that chosen love. However, I am not all-powerful.

God, on the other hand, is.

[Beastly]

I looked up that so called Robin Williams story, and as far as I can tell it was made by author unknown... I just happened to get that email read minutes before I read the thread. So it is very probable that it wasn't wrote by Robin Williams.

[Neoteny]

I looked up that so called Robin Williams story, and as far as I can tell it was made by author unknown... I just happened to get that email read minutes before I read the thread. So it is very probable that it wasn't wrote by Robin Williams.

I got it a few months ago. I'm a big Robin Williams fan and it just didn't sound like him. I'm not sure his religious orientation, but he does seem to be anti-organized religion. But that's the impression I get.

[Beastly]

OK. Thats fine. So you are saying that a chosen love is greater than any love God could create?

Yes or No.

I don't know, the answer to that, because I am not god, and I don't know anything about forcing someone to love me, because it is impossible for any of us to do that. However, for god, yes I believe he could create that. But what would be the purpose of doing that.

I guess believing the way I do, you would have to find out why the god of the bible created us at all.

I said I don't know if chosen love is greater than love god could create... you didn't propose that question 5 answers ago.


http://individual.utoronto.ca/johnbowen ... obin1.html

God according to robin Williams

[comic boy]

I don't know, the answer to that, because I am not god, and I don't know anything about forcing someone to love me, because it is impossible for any of us to do that. However, for god, yes I believe he could create that. But what would be the purpose of doing that.

I guess believing the way I do, you would have to find out why the god of the bible created us at all.

But you have already posted that God does that,God meant that etc etc,either you have a hotline to him or you dont ! Its pretty lame to hide behind ignorance of Gods thought process one minute and yet quote his
intentions/meanings the next.

[Beastly]

Why should I claim to know something that is impossible for me or anybody else to know?

Also, I am a Christian, and I wonder why people that molest children are allowed to suck air. Why God doesn't get these sick creatures off the earth. Or a murderer? So, It is perfectly ok to question and wonder things.. We are suppose to do that. and maybe someday I will learn my answer. I just don't know yet. I have to learn my answers by studying. Or maybe some things just aren't my business.

And comic boy, you are obviously not old enough to control your emotions in a civil conversation, so why don't you butt, out.

[MeDeFe]

idk, it isn't as if he insulted you or anything, he just pointed out what he sees as a flaw in your arguments, although in a rather direct manner.

[comic boy]

Why should I claim to know something that is impossible for me or anybody else to know?

Also, I am a Christian, and I wonder why people that molest children are allowed to suck air. Why God doesn't get these sick creatures off the earth. Or a murderer? So, It is perfectly ok to question and wonder things.. We are suppose to do that. and maybe someday I will learn my answer. I just don't know yet. I have to learn my answers by studying. Or maybe some things just aren't my business.

And comic boy, you are obviously not old enough to control your emotions in a civil conversation, so why don't you butt, out.

I was perfectly civil , no need to get aggresive because I pointed out the contradictions in your previous posts. You are indeed correct that it is impossible for you to know Gods thoughts yet you wrote with great certainty earlier about Gods intent - one or the other post is therefore incorrect agreed ! Incidently ones age may be a hindrance to fully understanding certain aspects of life, but as you are proving, advanced years dont always promote greater wisdom

[Beastly]

Its pretty lame to hide behind ignorance of Gods thought process one minute and yet quote his
intentions/meanings the next.

This was a very ignorant thing to say.. IF you can't participate like a mature person, in conversation then you shouldn't post.

Your opinion showed nothing of where I said anything. or what you thought was hiding behind gods ignorance or whatever... it made no sense. And I didn't quote shit. So maybe if you think you have something important to add, you can explain yourself instead of putting people down....

That was not civil. That was rude, and uncalled for. Go to flame Wars for that crap. OR don't participate if you can't control your emotions.

this thread and topic was not made for you to come in and give your opinion of what people believe. It's directed to believers, not to people who want to put believers down.