fluoride in the water

[Woodruff]

I don't need a state "licensed and certified" medical doctor to tell me something that someone who studdies and practices in a field like chiropractics may know better. Medical doctors are tainted with with "agenda's" from the drug industry, as well as others. I wouldn't recommend that anyone give birth in a hospital over a properly prepaired for home birth.

And sorry, but I know a GREAT deal more about that last than you.

A home birth can be safe and reasonable in ideal conditions, but heaven help the mother and child if something goes seriously wrong.. and sadly, they sometimes do.

Really, those should be tears, not laugher, but sometimes crying is just too painful.

Do you really? Ever had a home birth? We have had several. Don't tell me that you followed the "doctor's" advice and have your kids in a hospital... Are you even sure that they are yours? How much drugs did they use to inducs your labor, and then numb the pain?
You may think that you know more than I do, but I assure you that you do not... not about child birth. I caught our last child myself.

How can you possibly know that? Your arrogance is astounding.

[captain.crazy]

I don't need a state "licensed and certified" medical doctor to tell me something that someone who studdies and practices in a field like chiropractics may know better. Medical doctors are tainted with with "agenda's" from the drug industry, as well as others. I wouldn't recommend that anyone give birth in a hospital over a properly prepaired for home birth.

And sorry, but I know a GREAT deal more about that last than you.

A home birth can be safe and reasonable in ideal conditions, but heaven help the mother and child if something goes seriously wrong.. and sadly, they sometimes do.

Really, those should be tears, not laugher, but sometimes crying is just too painful.

Do you really? Ever had a home birth? We have had several. Don't tell me that you followed the "doctor's" advice and have your kids in a hospital... Are you even sure that they are yours? How much drugs did they use to inducs your labor, and then numb the pain?
You may think that you know more than I do, but I assure you that you do not... not about child birth. I caught our last child myself.

How can you possibly know that? Your arrogance is astounding.

because if she actually knew anything about home birth, she would obviously have answered something to the effect of how vastly superior it is to hospital birth.

[Woodruff]

I don't need a state "licensed and certified" medical doctor to tell me something that someone who studdies and practices in a field like chiropractics may know better. Medical doctors are tainted with with "agenda's" from the drug industry, as well as others. I wouldn't recommend that anyone give birth in a hospital over a properly prepaired for home birth.

And sorry, but I know a GREAT deal more about that last than you.

A home birth can be safe and reasonable in ideal conditions, but heaven help the mother and child if something goes seriously wrong.. and sadly, they sometimes do.

Really, those should be tears, not laugher, but sometimes crying is just too painful.

Do you really? Ever had a home birth? We have had several. Don't tell me that you followed the "doctor's" advice and have your kids in a hospital... Are you even sure that they are yours? How much drugs did they use to inducs your labor, and then numb the pain?
You may think that you know more than I do, but I assure you that you do not... not about child birth. I caught our last child myself.

How can you possibly know that? Your arrogance is astounding.

because if she actually knew anything about home birth, she would obviously have answered something to the effect of how vastly superior it is to hospital birth.

I'll say it again...your arrogance is astounding.

[captain.crazy]

I'll say it again...your arrogance is astounding.

that doesn't mean much coming from you. If you knew anything about birth, you would agree with me. You are just a mindless fucking sheep like the majority of America. Go pour your self another ice cold glass of fluoride, why dontcha...

[Woodruff]

I'll say it again...your arrogance is astounding.

that doesn't mean much coming from you. If you knew anything about birth, you would agree with me. You are just a mindless fucking sheep like the majority of America. Go pour your self another ice cold glass of fluoride, why dontcha...

Thanks, but I prefer that other high-risk killer Vitamin C.

[captain.crazy]

I'll say it again...your arrogance is astounding.

that doesn't mean much coming from you. If you knew anything about birth, you would agree with me. You are just a mindless fucking sheep like the majority of America. Go pour your self another ice cold glass of fluoride, why dontcha...

Thanks, but I prefer that other high-risk killer Vitamin C.

make sure that you drink lots of it then.

[Georgerx7di]

Flourine is used to kill germs, its in there for a reason. Water is usually treat with either flourine, or chlorine or some other halogen. They aren't usually found in elemental form, they usually come a salt (e.g. sodium chloride, sodium flouride, sodium bromide, etc). Bromine is becoming a popular replacement for treating swimming pools.

If our water wasn't treated it would be worst for us.

[Skittles!]

Gosh! I love slowly healthier affect of drinking a nice, cool glass of fluoridated water. Gives a nice "ahh" taste.

[PLAYER57832]

because if she actually knew anything about home birth, she would obviously have answered something to the effect of how vastly superior it is to hospital birth.

Several close relatives and friends of mine have had home births, including and underwater one. Other friends looked into it, as did I and decided against it.

I had complications. Had I had a home birth, my first son would have died and my second would have been gravely ill. And I have more than enough medical training to know it. (He was ill, but the problems were resolved) In my previous community, there were 3 children who died from midwife-assisted births. Here, there was just a death not too long ago.

I would have liked to try an underwater birth, but the nearest facility was 2 hours away. That would have included doctors visits. I did not go to the nearest hospital, though for personnal reasons. (relatives were on staff there)

As to my kid's parentage. My first son was removed from my presence, but my second son never left my sight. Both had plenty of blood tests. Anyway,the oldest is a clone of his dad. The second looks a bit more like me, but still resembles his dad a great deal.

I suggest you look into this a bit more ... right after you take your foot out of your mouth.

[captain.crazy]

because if she actually knew anything about home birth, she would obviously have answered something to the effect of how vastly superior it is to hospital birth.

Several close relatives and friends of mine have had home births, including and underwater one. Other friends looked into it, as did I and decided against it.

I had complications. Had I had a home birth, my first son would have died and my second would have been gravely ill. And I have more than enough medical training to know it. (He was ill, but the problems were resolved) In my previous community, there were 3 children who died from midwife-assisted births. Here, there was just a death not too long ago.

I would have liked to try an underwater birth, but the nearest facility was 2 hours away. That would have included doctors visits. I did not go to the nearest hospital, though for personnal reasons. (relatives were on staff there)

As to my kid's parentage. My first son was removed from my presence, but my second son never left my sight. Both had plenty of blood tests. Anyway,the oldest is a clone of his dad. The second looks a bit more like me, but still resembles his dad a great deal.

I suggest you look into this a bit more ... right after you take your foot out of your mouth.

What complications did you have?

And my foot is not in my mouth. Normal and healthy birth conducted at home, is volumes better than a hospital birth. Women are not cut open in so called "emergency" C-section delivery. Mother and Child are not drugged out of their minds, causing complications that people wrongly assume that they were goint to have regardless.

The fact of the matter is that the hospital birth is nothing if not a money making birth factory method for butchery and careless "service". If you were to look into it, you would find that other countries, Largely in Europe, have far greater birth mortality rates than do we here in the states, and they are largely conducting home and natural child birty, with the assistance of a Midwife. Do your homework, then bring me your references, and you will see.

[PLAYER57832]

And my foot is not in my mouth.

Then you truly are an idiot.

For you to claim that you know anything more about birth than a woman who has gone through it and definitely done research on the matter shows extraordinary arrogance and ignorance both.

You are extremely misinformed. I worked with both a midwife and a doula. I would not have minded having them assist my birth, but even aside from insurance (which is an issue), I had issues outside the range of what they felt comfortable dealing with. (what they were is none of your business)

Women do get too many C-sections, but a large number are not emergencies. Others could be prevented, but the biggest factor in prevention is proper prenatal care, so that doctors know if there are to be situations in advance. Often times with a little foreknowledge, things can be done to prevent a bad outcome -- moving the chord is probably the most well known, though often times well trained midwife can deal with that. The issue is the few times when that is not the case.

You put forward claims that vaccinations are idiotic because 1 in about 14,000 kids die. Yet, you are willing to say that a woman should put herself and her child at far greater risk just to save a few dollars. In my case, birthing at home would have meant risking a 45 minute wait to get to an emergency facility.

The days when women were wheeled into a hospital, drugged our of her mind to deliver behind solidly closed doors are gone. Women today have a whole range of choices. Medication or no medication just being the most basic. Healthy babies are almost always left with their mothers, not shipped off to a nursery. Hospitals have trained lactitions on staff. I mentioned a nearby hospital that offered underwater birthing, others offer more "homey" rooms.

[captain.crazy]

And my foot is not in my mouth.

Then you truly are an idiot.

For you to claim that you know anything more about birth than a woman who has gone through it and definitely done research on the matter shows extraordinary arrogance and ignorance both.

You are extremely misinformed. I worked with both a midwife and a doula. I would not have minded having them assist my birth, but even aside from insurance (which is an issue), I had issues outside the range of what they felt comfortable dealing with. (what they were is none of your business)

Women do get too many C-sections, but a large number are not emergencies. Others could be prevented, but the biggest factor in prevention is proper prenatal care, so that doctors know if there are to be situations in advance. Often times with a little foreknowledge, things can be done to prevent a bad outcome -- moving the chord is probably the most well known, though often times well trained midwife can deal with that. The issue is the few times when that is not the case.

You put forward claims that vaccinations are idiotic because 1 in about 14,000 kids die. Yet, you are willing to say that a woman should put herself and her child at far greater risk just to save a few dollars. In my case, birthing at home would have meant risking a 45 minute wait to get to an emergency facility.

The days when women were wheeled into a hospital, drugged our of her mind to deliver behind solidly closed doors are gone. Women today have a whole range of choices. Medication or no medication just being the most basic. Healthy babies are almost always left with their mothers, not shipped off to a nursery. Hospitals have trained lactitions on staff. I mentioned a nearby hospital that offered underwater birthing, others offer more "homey" rooms.

I thinh you are sexist. What makes you think that I cannot have as much understanding about the birth as you? Just because I didn't push a kid our of my body doesn't mean that I wasn't there, struggling for hours with my wife. That's funny! I thought that men and women were equal. Apparently, you don't think so.

The days of forcing people into the drug induced state ARE over... you do have choices... sadly, the fashionable choice is to schedule the surgical removal of your child, at the convenience of your doctor.

[xelabale]

What complications did you have?

And my foot is not in my mouth. Normal and healthy birth conducted at home, is volumes better than a hospital birth. Women are not cut open in so called "emergency" C-section delivery. Mother and Child are not drugged out of their minds, causing complications that people wrongly assume that they were goint to have regardless.

The fact of the matter is that the hospital birth is nothing if not a money making birth factory method for butchery and careless "service". If you were to look into it, you would find that other countries, Largely in Europe, have far greater birth mortality rates than do we here in the states, and they are largely conducting home and natural child birty, with the assistance of a Midwife. Do your homework, then bring me your references, and you will see.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
oh
oh

oh

hahahahahhahahahahhahahahahhahahahhahahahahhahahahhaha

If the mortality rates are so high why do you recommend it?

Hahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahhah

[captain.crazy]

What complications did you have?

And my foot is not in my mouth. Normal and healthy birth conducted at home, is volumes better than a hospital birth. Women are not cut open in so called "emergency" C-section delivery. Mother and Child are not drugged out of their minds, causing complications that people wrongly assume that they were goint to have regardless.

The fact of the matter is that the hospital birth is nothing if not a money making birth factory method for butchery and careless "service". If you were to look into it, you would find that other countries, Largely in Europe, have far greater birth mortality rates than do we here in the states, and they are largely conducting home and natural child birty, with the assistance of a Midwife. Do your homework, then bring me your references, and you will see.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
oh
oh

oh

hahahahahhahahahahhahahahahhahahahhahahahahhahahahhaha

If the mortality rates are so high why do you recommend it?

Hahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahhah

I meant better.

[xelabale]

Oh. Now you don't contracdict yourself, you're just wrong.

[captain.crazy]

Oh. Now you don't contracdict yourself, you're just wrong.

prove it.

EDIT:

Nevermind... I will prove you are wrong for you:

Below you can see the list of newborn deaths per 1,000 live births in the top 33 industrialised countries. They are grouped from A to F. Each group is listed alphabetically.

A - Japan 1.8/1000
B - Czech Rep 2/1000
B - Finland 2/1000
B - Iceland 2/1000
B - Norway 2/1000
C - Austria 3/1000
C - France 3/1000
C - Germany 3/1000
C - Israel 3/1000
C - Italy 3/1000
C - Luxembourg 3/1000
C - Portugal 3/1000
C - Slovenia 3/1000
C - Spain 3/1000
D - Australia 4/1000
D - Belgium 4/1000
D - Canada 4/1000
D - Denmark 4/1000
D - Estonia 4/1000
D - Greece 4/1000
D - Ireland 4/1000
D - Lithuania 4/1000
D - Netherlands 4/1000
D - New Zealand 4/1000
D - Switzerland 4/1000
D - United Kingdom 4/1000
E - Hungary 5/1000
E - Malta 5/1000
E - Poland 5/1000
E - Slovakia 5/1000
E - USA - 5/1000
F - Latvia 6/1000

Written by: Christian Nordqvist
Editor: Medical News Today
Copyright: Medical News Today

[xelabale]

Oh I'm not saying yourmedical system isn't shit. I just wonder why you attribute that to home births. It seems there are many factors that affect this statistic, yet you are focussed on only one. Provide stats to back that up and I may listen to what you've got to say.

You know what cap'n, you don't have to be anti everything. Sometimes the majority are right, and that's okay. Take a chill pill brother.

PS Still only 29 posts, you should update that... I'm thinking maybe you're Twill?

[PLAYER57832]

Oh. Now you don't contracdict yourself, you're just wrong.

prove it.

EDIT:

Nevermind... I will prove you are wrong for you:

Below you can see the list of newborn deaths per 1,000 live births in the top 33 industrialised countries. They are grouped from A to F. Each group is listed alphabetically.

A - Japan 1.8/1000
B - Czech Rep 2/1000
B - Finland 2/1000
B - Iceland 2/1000
B - Norway 2/1000
C - Austria 3/1000
C - France 3/1000
C - Germany 3/1000
C - Israel 3/1000
C - Italy 3/1000
C - Luxembourg 3/1000
C - Portugal 3/1000
C - Slovenia 3/1000
C - Spain 3/1000
D - Australia 4/1000
D - Belgium 4/1000
D - Canada 4/1000
D - Denmark 4/1000
D - Estonia 4/1000
D - Greece 4/1000
D - Ireland 4/1000
D - Lithuania 4/1000
D - Netherlands 4/1000
D - New Zealand 4/1000
D - Switzerland 4/1000
D - United Kingdom 4/1000
E - Hungary 5/1000
E - Malta 5/1000
E - Poland 5/1000
E - Slovakia 5/1000
E - USA - 5/1000
F - Latvia 6/1000

Written by: Christian Nordqvist
Editor: Medical News Today
Copyright: Medical News Today

Oh gee... more babies die in hospital births, definite proof hospitals are dangerous ... and let's remove those nasty bed things as well... after all more people die in bed than anywhere else! Even you should have seen the problem there.

3 actual facts:

Early deaths are closely tied to prenatal care. Prenatal care has gone down recently due to high insurance costs, high levels of unisured women. Most states give prenatal care the highest priority, but not all women know and many slip through the cracks of making too much for free care and not making enough to pay for it.

It is also tied to teen births. Teen births have also begun to rise recently (after decades of steady reversals), strangely "cooncidental" with changes in education from comprehensive sex education to so -called 'abstinance only" education.

In the US we currently have technology that allows kids to survive to birth who in many of these countries would simply miscarry. While some reductions in miscarriages are a straight gain (use of progesterone, for example significantly reduces chances of early miscarriage in many older women), many others mean simply that much sicker kids live longer. A higher percentage of those fail to survive birth or die shortly after birth.

[PLAYER57832]

Oh I'm not saying yourmedical system isn't shit. I just wonder why you attribute that to home births. It seems there are many factors that affect this statistic, yet you are focussed on only one. Provide stats to back that up and I may listen to what you've got to say.

You know what cap'n, you don't have to be anti everything. Sometimes the majority are right, and that's okay. Take a chill pill brother.

PS Still only 29 posts, you should update that... I'm thinking maybe you're Twill?

One fact we like to sidestep is that in a country as large as ours, with so many doctors, there are going to be a fair number who should not be doctors. The private pay system and lack of general tracking make it much easier for many of these doctors to stay in practice than in other countries.

That said, the vast majority of doctors are, while not perfect "gods", reasonably competant, honest and pretty darned good at what they do.

[xelabale]

Oh I'm not saying yourmedical system isn't shit. I just wonder why you attribute that to home births. It seems there are many factors that affect this statistic, yet you are focussed on only one. Provide stats to back that up and I may listen to what you've got to say.

You know what cap'n, you don't have to be anti everything. Sometimes the majority are right, and that's okay. Take a chill pill brother.

PS Still only 29 posts, you should update that... I'm thinking maybe you're Twill?

One fact we like to sidestep is that in a country as large as ours, with so many doctors, there are going to be a fair number who should not be doctors. The private pay system and lack of general tracking make it much easier for many of these doctors to stay in practice than in other countries.

That said, the vast majority of doctors are, while not perfect "gods", reasonably competant, honest and pretty darned good at what they do.

Let me make it quite clear - I'm not attacking the doctors, the vast majority I believe are good, well-meaning and professional. But they have to operate within a system and, though I don't know that much about it, from what I've seen and experienced myself, it leaves something to be desired.

[joecoolfrog]

because if she actually knew anything about home birth, she would obviously have answered something to the effect of how vastly superior it is to hospital birth.

Several close relatives and friends of mine have had home births, including and underwater one. Other friends looked into it, as did I and decided against it.

I had complications. Had I had a home birth, my first son would have died and my second would have been gravely ill. And I have more than enough medical training to know it. (He was ill, but the problems were resolved) In my previous community, there were 3 children who died from midwife-assisted births. Here, there was just a death not too long ago.

I would have liked to try an underwater birth, but the nearest facility was 2 hours away. That would have included doctors visits. I did not go to the nearest hospital, though for personnal reasons. (relatives were on staff there)

As to my kid's parentage. My first son was removed from my presence, but my second son never left my sight. Both had plenty of blood tests. Anyway,the oldest is a clone of his dad. The second looks a bit more like me, but still resembles his dad a great deal.

I suggest you look into this a bit more ... right after you take your foot out of your mouth.

What complications did you have?

And my foot is not in my mouth. Normal and healthy birth conducted at home, is volumes better than a hospital birth. Women are not cut open in so called "emergency" C-section delivery. Mother and Child are not drugged out of their minds, causing complications that people wrongly assume that they were goint to have regardless.

The fact of the matter is that the hospital birth is nothing if not a money making birth factory method for butchery and careless "service". If you were to look into it, you would find that other countries, Largely in Europe, have far greater birth mortality rates than do we here in the states, and they are largely conducting home and natural child birty, with the assistance of a Midwife. Do your homework, then bring me your references, and you will see.

Who exactly are these countries in Europe,I can think of only the Netherlands that has a large percentage of homebirths. Show us statistics for these countries that indicate a large percentage of homebirths and a better mortality rate ( compared to hospital births ) , then you will have a case, otherwise its just hot air yet again.

[captain.crazy]

because if she actually knew anything about home birth, she would obviously have answered something to the effect of how vastly superior it is to hospital birth.

Several close relatives and friends of mine have had home births, including and underwater one. Other friends looked into it, as did I and decided against it.

I had complications. Had I had a home birth, my first son would have died and my second would have been gravely ill. And I have more than enough medical training to know it. (He was ill, but the problems were resolved) In my previous community, there were 3 children who died from midwife-assisted births. Here, there was just a death not too long ago.

I would have liked to try an underwater birth, but the nearest facility was 2 hours away. That would have included doctors visits. I did not go to the nearest hospital, though for personnal reasons. (relatives were on staff there)

As to my kid's parentage. My first son was removed from my presence, but my second son never left my sight. Both had plenty of blood tests. Anyway,the oldest is a clone of his dad. The second looks a bit more like me, but still resembles his dad a great deal.

I suggest you look into this a bit more ... right after you take your foot out of your mouth.

What complications did you have?

And my foot is not in my mouth. Normal and healthy birth conducted at home, is volumes better than a hospital birth. Women are not cut open in so called "emergency" C-section delivery. Mother and Child are not drugged out of their minds, causing complications that people wrongly assume that they were goint to have regardless.

The fact of the matter is that the hospital birth is nothing if not a money making birth factory method for butchery and careless "service". If you were to look into it, you would find that other countries, Largely in Europe, have far greater birth mortality rates than do we here in the states, and they are largely conducting home and natural child birty, with the assistance of a Midwife. Do your homework, then bring me your references, and you will see.

Who exactly are these countries in Europe,I can think of only the Netherlands that has a large percentage of homebirths. Show us statistics for these countries that indicate a large percentage of homebirths and a better mortality rate ( compared to hospital births ) , then you will have a case, otherwise its just hot air yet again.

In the five European countries with the lowest infant mortality rates, midwives preside at more
than 70% all births. More than half of all Dutch babies are born at home with midwives in
attendance, and Holland’s maternal and infant mortality rates are far lower than in the United
States… (Midwives Still Hassled by Medical Establishment, Caroline Hall Otis, Utne Reader,
Nov./Dec. 1990, pages 32-34)

http://www.globalmidwives.org/files/Art ... safety.pdf

[PLAYER57832]

In the five European countries with the lowest infant mortality rates, midwives preside at more
than 70% all births. More than half of all Dutch babies are born at home with midwives in
attendance, and Holland’s maternal and infant mortality rates are far lower than in the United
States… (Midwives Still Hassled by Medical Establishment, Caroline Hall Otis, Utne Reader,
Nov./Dec. 1990, pages 32-34)

http://www.globalmidwives.org/files/Art ... safety.pdf

You are mixing up some statistics here.

I am all in favor of miwives, as are many (not all, of course) in the Obstetric profession. They can absolutely handle most no-complication births. BUT, there are 3 keys.

First, the biggest factor in healthy birth is prenatal care, not the delivery. That is where Holland excels and the US fails.

Second, well-trained midwives recognize those births that will likely have problems and will ensure that their patients are in a hospital, if necessary attended by a qualified physician or surgeon. In Holland, from what I understand, those relationships are firmly established. This inherently skews the statistics because those Dutch who give birth in hospitals are primarily those more ill. This is ALSO true in the US, even though the rates of home births in the US is much lower. You repeatedly ignore this fact.

Thirdly, Holland has much better medical coverage than much of the US. You could drive from one state to another more quickly than many people can reach a hospital qualified to care for seriously ill newborns. This was frankly a big factor in my birthing choices, as was the time of year. There is a HUGE difference between a 5 minute drive even in rain and a 45 minute (minimum) drive, possibly in a blizzard. When I lived in Alaska, women regularly had to spend a week "in town" prior to their expected delivery, because the alternative was having an EMT in attendance for perhaps several days before any further care could be reached. (Native Americans there have their own system with much, much better coverage. Non-native women could not go to those clinics, nor could the professionals their use native practices on non-natives)

[comic boy]

Well I read the link and it doesn't answer any of the questions that were asked, where are the statistics ?

[PLAYER57832]

Just to clarify, home births are going to show almost only healthy home births (things like Downs, etc are still "healthy" in this regard -- Downs alone does not complicate a birth). This is because midwives are trained to recognize when situations are beyond their abilities. Even if they get into "situations" during birth, they will rush the woman or woman and child to the hospital.

So, my comparison to people dying in beds means a bed is dangerous is apt. More complications absolutely occur in hospitals, because mothers with problems GO to a hospital for help, not because the hospital causes the problems.