what is the goal of public school? (serious debate, please)

[thegreekdog]

I would divide public school "goals" into realms of importance. For example, I think at a minimum students should learn certain subjects, but other subjects should be taught as well. I just made this up now, so it's subject to change:

Highest Importance
- Basic mathematics, including algebra and geometry
- Basic English, including grammar, but not including literature
- Basic science (specifically basic physics, biology, and chemistry)
- America government

Medium Importance
- American history
- More advanced English courses, including literature
- Computer sciences
- Gym

Low Importance
- Art, including music
- World history
- World cultures
- Advanced mathematics (calculus)
- Advanced sciences

I think all students should have at least the high importance stuff. I'm not suggesting the medium or low importance stuff is not necessary, but at a basic level we all need the high importance stuff.

And I agree that public school teaches socialization skills above all.

[john9blue]

it may be better if "computer science" is broadened to "information science", but otherwise that's a pretty good overview

[Mr_Adams]

Highest Importance
- Basic mathematics, including algebra and geometry
- Basic English, including grammar, but not including literature
- Basic science (specifically basic physics, biology, and chemistry)
- America government

bullets:
1)define basic? please say your "algebra and geometry" includes what is considered algebra 1 & 2. Probably pre-calculus as well.
2)why not literature? That's like teaching math but not science? Albeit, the literature presented needs to be refined, but it is an important way to apply the grammar. (I would prefer more primary source literature, so perhaps this could be taken care of in history class) But should still be high priority.
3)absolutely. You should be required to take 2 of the three in high school. There should also be a more advanced version of each class which does not require the simplified version as a pre-rec (for the students more inclined towards the subject)
4)I'm a bit iffy on this one. You have government employees teaching about the government. They won't be inclined to allow discussion of what is wrong with the government.

Medium Importance
- American history
- More advanced English courses, including literature
- Computer sciences
- Gym

1)Yes, but you have teachers who are over overwhelmingly liberal, and tend to put a bad spin on everything. Are you comfortable with that? Again, I would say have primary source literature replace this.
2)ok
3)good
4)And don't sissify it, either. It's stupid not to keep score when little boys are generally so competitive. In grade school, boys and girls should have separate gym class, since girls respond better to more group activities, while boys respond better to competition. (I could make an argument for complete gender-segregated schools, but that doesn't fit this thread as well.)

Low Importance
- Art, including music
- World history
- World cultures
- Advanced mathematics (calculus)
- Advanced sciences

1)I wouldn't undervalue art. The development of the lobes of the brain geared towards art are very important to the same parts that are geared towards the sciences, which are on the "High Importance" list.
2)See American history
3)This is EXTREMELY important. The general view of Americans as arrogant discourages international buisness on the small scale, which is bad for our economy. This would certainly help.
4)I wouldn't under-estimate the value of calculus. It shouldn't be required (yet) for graduation, but definitely to be valedictorian.
5)Again, students should have the option between "graduation requirement" level science classes and "applicable level" sciences. Also, this should be medium priority, at the very least. Every year, hundreds of jobs are out sourced, not for a cheaper work force, but because Americans simply aren't skilled enough to take the jobs. It's pitiful. The corporations are demonized for outsourcing R&D, but the capable R&D personnel are all employed (generally). It is often more expensive to hire over seas, depending on what country they hire in.

[PLAYER57832]

For example, I would LOVE to say that we need foreign language or sign language as standard at the elementary level, but it just is not going to happen right now.

i disagree, learning another language is simply learning to express ideas and concepts in a different way. it is more important to learn about the ideas and concepts in the first place. it's entirely possible to be a success only knowing one language.

Children who learn more than one language, particularly children who are truly bilingual from a very young age, wind up being more intelligent overall.

There is much more involved than just seeing the world from a different perspective. New languages access more areas of the brain.

There are stipulations to that (some children have trouble with only one language, for example). However, this is now pretty much accepted as fact.

[john9blue]

For example, I would LOVE to say that we need foreign language or sign language as standard at the elementary level, but it just is not going to happen right now.

i disagree, learning another language is simply learning to express ideas and concepts in a different way. it is more important to learn about the ideas and concepts in the first place. it's entirely possible to be a success only knowing one language.

Children who learn more than one language, particularly children who are truly bilingual from a very young age, wind up being more intelligent overall.

There is much more involved than just seeing the world from a different perspective. New languages access more areas of the brain.

There are stipulations to that (some children have trouble with only one language, for example). However, this is now pretty much accepted as fact.

but where is the cause/effect? are they getting smarter by learning more languages, or (as i suspect) are they able/willing to learn more languages because they are smarter?

i can see the case for learning two languages in order to increase connections in the brain (or whatever benefits being bilingual has), but the effort required to teach it far outweighs the benefits. unless there are studies saying otherwise? i haven't checked.

[Mr Changsha]

While public schools have always taught young men of good breeding to lead from the front and f*ck from the back, state schools (perversely) have instead been required to teach the masses basic literacy, numeracy and ideally some technical skills too.

One of the issues with the majority of the posts in this thread is that they haven't taken into account that the elites of most nations have little interest in really educating the common man. Parties of all stripes and colours 'talk the talk' on education, but in actuality they are happy to know that a bare minimum of us all can really read, comprehend and think.

Therefore, what is the goal of a government school? This is quite different to what should be the goal of a government school. This also varies from country to country. In China, it is to teach discipline, modesty and a collective ideal (as I write this I'm listening to the local primary school teachers march a bunch of kids up and down the playground) while in the US and the UK it seems to be to encourage a brash, individualistic and more often than not unfounded confidence in one's own abilities: 'We are all special...'

The one thing that all the education systems I have encountered have in common is the aim of preparing the young to take their place in the workforce. As the great majority of students will end up having quite rudimentary occupations (both in the west and the east) it is of no surprise that most students leave school or university with a quite basic level of education. One might also suggest that the majority of people are unable to handle any more than a basic education, which thus leads me, at least, to wonder at the dumbing down of secondary education and increasing the numbers attending tertiary education. Big Brother himself would have been proud of that modern development.

[alex951]

While public schools have always taught young men of good breeding to lead from the front and f*ck from the back, state schools (perversely) have instead been required to teach the masses basic literacy, numeracy and ideally some technical skills too.

One of the issues with the majority of the posts in this thread is that they haven't taken into account that the elites of most nations have little interest in really educating the common man. Parties of all stripes and colours 'talk the talk' on education, but in actuality they are happy to know that a bare minimum of us all can really read, comprehend and think.

Therefore, what is the goal of a government school? This is quite different to what should be the goal of a government school. This also varies from country to country. In China, it is to teach discipline, modesty and a collective ideal (as I write this I'm listening to the local primary school teachers march a bunch of kids up and down the playground) while in the US and the UK it seems to be to encourage a brash, individualistic and more often than not unfounded confidence in one's own abilities: 'We are all special...'

The one thing that all the education systems I have encountered have in common is the aim of preparing the young to take their place in the workforce. As the great majority of students will end up having quite rudimentary occupations (both in the west and the east) it is of no surprise that most students leave school or university with a quite basic level of education. One might also suggest that the majority of people are unable to handle any more than a basic education, which thus leads me, at least, to wonder at the dumbing down of secondary education and increasing the numbers attending tertiary education. Big Brother himself would have been proud of that modern development.

nice

[Mr_Adams]

Therefore, what is the goal of a government school? This is quite different to what should be the goal of a government school.

Haha, honestly, I think that's what I slipped into. Got to the point where I assumed that everybody agreed that the schools are all crap on a plate costing way to much, and went on to "I wish it were like this".

[Phatscotty]

This guy says public schooling's goal isto prepare kids for "some sort of authoritarian lifestyle". He could have added "corporate-authoritarian". Interesting tho

Separation of School and State

[maasman]

4)I'm a bit iffy on this one. You have government employees teaching about the government. They won't be inclined to allow discussion of what is wrong with the government.

Mr. Adams (and several other people), why all the hate on schools teaching government and such? Did you go to such a piss poor school that the teachers themselves were a bunch of brain washed drones? I had a public education through high school and only just started at a private college, and I think my education was more than adequate. You people all denounce public education when things on the private side from what I've seen isn't much better, if at all. Now, the schools I went to could very well be an exception to the rule and I'm willing to accept that, but the people shitting on the teachers and the public education system in general on these forums is frustrating. Of course things should be improved to higher level of education, I just find it very annoying that everyone on here seems to think every teacher and school in general is complete crap, especially when a lot of public schools do very well.

[Mr_Adams]

well, I just graduated from High School and am now at the community college, and I can count on one hand the quality teachers I had in 4 years of high school:
Downing
Greene
Naninni
Sloan
Buus

There you go. I got lucky, and ended up in the good gov't teacher's class. The other two were a push over and a nut job. That's where I'm coming from.

[BigBallinStalin]

@maasman and Mr Adams

There are problems associated with applying one's direct, personal observations to the nation's entire school system.

[Mr Changsha]

This guy says public schooling's goal isto prepare kids for "some sort of authoritarian lifestyle". He could have added "corporate-authoritarian". Interesting tho

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6i
HRSAIsCo]Separation of School and State[/url]

The goal of public school is to teach flashman to bugger biggles and for biggles to bloody well enjoy it. I haven't the foggiest what you are on about with your lunacy, but public school taught me to be careful where I bend, how to mock gracefully and when to just wound rather than shoot dead a german.

[john9blue]

bugger biggles and for biggles to bloody well enjoy it. I haven't the foggiest

this is like the most british thing i've ever read

[PLAYER57832]

While public schools have always taught young men of good breeding to lead from the front and f*ck from the back, state schools (perversely) have instead been required to teach the masses basic literacy, numeracy and ideally some technical skills too.

One of the issues with the majority of the posts in this thread is that they haven't taken into account that the elites of most nations have little interest in really educating the common man. Parties of all stripes and colours 'talk the talk' on education, but in actuality they are happy to know that a bare minimum of us all can really read, comprehend and think.

Therefore, what is the goal of a government school? This is quite different to what should be the goal of a government school. This also varies from country to country. In China, it is to teach discipline, modesty and a collective ideal (as I write this I'm listening to the local primary school teachers march a bunch of kids up and down the playground) while in the US and the UK it seems to be to encourage a brash, individualistic and more often than not unfounded confidence in one's own abilities: 'We are all special...'

The one thing that all the education systems I have encountered have in common is the aim of preparing the young to take their place in the workforce. As the great majority of students will end up having quite rudimentary occupations (both in the west and the east) it is of no surprise that most students leave school or university with a quite basic level of education. One might also suggest that the majority of people are unable to handle any more than a basic education, which thus leads me, at least, to wonder at the dumbing down of secondary education and increasing the numbers attending tertiary education. Big Brother himself would have been proud of that modern development.

I have, more than once heard the explanation of the 60's as a bunch of priviliaged kids growing up and realizing the world was not quite what they were taught.

However, cyacism aside, we do have the ability to shape things in the US. But, that shaping requires work, not just complaints and words. And yes, it requires work from "the masses", not simply expecting those in charge to "do it all".

[thegreekdog]

One might also suggest that the majority of people are unable to handle any more than a basic education, which thus leads me, at least, to wonder at the dumbing down of secondary education and increasing the numbers attending tertiary education. Big Brother himself would have been proud of that modern development.

But, but, but... I thought we wanted all young students to go to college!?!?!

[Mr Changsha]

While public schools have always taught young men of good breeding to lead from the front and f*ck from the back, state schools (perversely) have instead been required to teach the masses basic literacy, numeracy and ideally some technical skills too.

One of the issues with the majority of the posts in this thread is that they haven't taken into account that the elites of most nations have little interest in really educating the common man. Parties of all stripes and colours 'talk the talk' on education, but in actuality they are happy to know that a bare minimum of us all can really read, comprehend and think.

Therefore, what is the goal of a government school? This is quite different to what should be the goal of a government school. This also varies from country to country. In China, it is to teach discipline, modesty and a collective ideal (as I write this I'm listening to the local primary school teachers march a bunch of kids up and down the playground) while in the US and the UK it seems to be to encourage a brash, individualistic and more often than not unfounded confidence in one's own abilities: 'We are all special...'

The one thing that all the education systems I have encountered have in common is the aim of preparing the young to take their place in the workforce. As the great majority of students will end up having quite rudimentary occupations (both in the west and the east) it is of no surprise that most students leave school or university with a quite basic level of education. One might also suggest that the majority of people are unable to handle any more than a basic education, which thus leads me, at least, to wonder at the dumbing down of secondary education and increasing the numbers attending tertiary education. Big Brother himself would have been proud of that modern development.

I have, more than once heard the explanation of the 60's as a bunch of priviliaged kids growing up and realizing the world was not quite what they were taught.

However, cyacism aside, we do have the ability to shape things in the US. But, that shaping requires work, not just complaints and words. And yes, it requires work from "the masses", not simply expecting those in charge to "do it all".

Well until the people can work out a way to provide a free education for themselves (or are frankly prepared to actually pay for an education and thus gain a stake in it) then they pretty much have to rely on their governments. So yeah, 'the people can shape things', which is both wonderfully cuddly and marginally true; but they don't seem able to organise their own education, thus leaving them to the tender mercies of people far more cynical and horrible than I.

It is all very well to bemoan the arrogant superiority of the elite and maintain the people can shape their own futures, but that way leads to leftism and leftism leads to delusion and delusion leads to a moral bankruptcy in us all. Remember giving the people power quite inevitably leads to a tyranny far worse than you have ever had to face in capitalist, liberal America. Elites and all.

[PLAYER57832]

Well until the people can work out a way to provide a free education for themselves (or are frankly prepared to actually pay for an education and thus gain a stake in it) then they pretty much have to rely on their governments. So yeah, 'the people can shape things', which is both wonderfully cuddly and marginally true; but they don't seem able to organise their own education, thus leaving them to the tender mercies of people far more cynical and horrible than I.

It is all very well to bemoan the arrogant superiority of the elite and maintain the people can shape their own futures, but that way leads to leftism and leftism leads to delusion and delusion leads to a moral bankruptcy in us all. Remember giving the people power quite inevitably leads to a tyranny far worse than you have ever had to face in capitalist, liberal America. Elites and all.

EXCEPT, up until "no child left behind" (though some people see beginnings in the civil rights era), schools were one thing largely left to local control. I am not suggesting everything was perfect, but funding was largely state and local, decisions made by local school boards and individual principals. So, while not all schools were equal, they did tend to reflect the needs and values of the community they served. Ironically, that is part of why poor areas fared so badly... poor areas just did not have the support, either financial, physically,"'attitudinally", etc.

I saw a partial change in California under prop 13, a propisition (or "code" for a set of propositions beginning with prop 13) that lowered and equalized taxes for schools -- to simplify it greatly). My own school district was wealthy. When they saw prop 13 coming, they immediately embarked on multiple construction projects knowing they would not have the opportunity in the future. As a result, the school was able to maintain for a long time. Now, though, I go back and see that things have begun to slide a bit on the physical side of things. However, that is also still a very wealthy community with a LOT of support for kids.. so the education is still quite good. Other areas, with out the extreme resources, have not fared so well.

NCLB makes the mistake of bringing up the lower schools without recognizing, at all, the individual divirsity that made the good schools good. They were not cookie cutter schools. In many cases, they did not do everything for every child, but they did a decent job for all and excelled in the areas whree they were able to excel.

The other thing that gets missed HIGHLY in NCLB is the interrelation of all the various things kids need to learn. My "ideal" setting is to take kids outdoors -- either to the woods or just in a garden. There it is not just possible, but easier to teach kids pretty much everything they need to know, with additions for literature and music, art. (all of which can be integrated). However, the attitude in the US, attitudes that have lead to accepting NCLB is that we have to separate and categorize everything. So, in PA, for example, ANY class that is taught on computer has to be taught by a business school teacher. An english teacher who used computers to teach creative writing was considered "teaching outside her field of expertise" and was rated poorly. THAT is the kind of stupidity that happens when you allow a bunch of linear thinkers and folks who only care about numbers and "clear, identifiable goals" to decide what happens in education.

Business is finally learning that all this division is really a mistake. YET, these selfsame "leaders" want to turn our schools into segmented factories, with NCLB leading the way, pushing every school into their mold.

[PLAYER57832]

One might also suggest that the majority of people are unable to handle any more than a basic education, which thus leads me, at least, to wonder at the dumbing down of secondary education and increasing the numbers attending tertiary education. Big Brother himself would have been proud of that modern development.

But, but, but... I thought we wanted all young students to go to college!?!?!

Actually even deciding that you need to disinguish kids in that way is part of the mistake.

If you look at how some of our great thinkers and leaders were REALLY trained (as opposed to how people want to pretend they were trained), you see some consistancies. Specifically, many were brought up very much in tune with the world around them in various ways. Many grew up on farms, because that was what there was. Jefferson used his farm as a biological laboratory. Edison, similarly, could not have gotten where he did without the ability to experiment, tinker and create that came from his upbringing. Those things are being systematically eliminated and it is not just the kids who want to grow up to work in factories who suffer, it is ALL kids. We are creating a bunch of decentralized, specialized robots, along with a mass of barely functioning automots. We USED TO create truly individualized and creative thinkers.

This is the biggest difference between me and many of the younger folks here. There are fundamental reasons why folks like BK, me, even Saxi all but head with many of the younger, not just conservative, but very narrow thinking individuals here. I disagree with Saxi (well, the personal he presents anyway), BK, etc on many issues, but we all are able to understand each other reasonably well and hold reasonable conversations because we all have recieved educations that allow us to do that. Too many of the younger folks make it clear they have not gotten any such education. If it were only in CC, that would not be a big deal. Except... I see the same thing in many steads and many locations.

Thankfully, there still are spots of shining exception and diversity, but it is getting harder and harder for them to maintain. FAR too much of a teacher's job today is about circumventing rules so they can actually teach. NCLB simply stands in the way of good learning, it definitely does not help.

[thegreekdog]

Again, Player, I don't disagree that there are problems with public education, including the ones you've identified. However, again, these problems existed before No Child Left Behind.

[PLAYER57832]

Again, Player, I don't disagree that there are problems with public education, including the ones you've identified. However, again, these problems existed before No Child Left Behind.

You are missing the point. No child left behind is making it much, MUCH worse and is keeping schools from fixing the problems, is forcing schools that were doing decently to do poorly in order to meet NCLB criteria. This is exactly what has happened in my community and many, many others.

I know you don't have the time to go out and investigate all the local schools in your area, never mind a sampling of national schools. However, I have. The fact that I don't have "hard data" as you call it (and note, this comes from a scientist.. someone who loves data!), doesn't mean what I say isn't real.

Like I said before... a computer cannot tell me why Rembrandt is a masterpiece (not really.. they try, but don't "catch" it). However, most people are able to know good art from bad art intutively. (with the understanding that there is a range for opinion).

OR, to put it another way. Engineers built big dams. They did so by mostly over-engineering and overcompensating for EVERYTHING. However, it was not until very, very recently that engineers/physicists, etc could even come close to truly predicting which way a stream would go or to micro-engineering streams. Humans could, because we are able to process millions of subtleties (with experience) that no computer model could. Only with the advent of Chaos math are scientists even coming close to predicting everything from weather to stream flows to the way.

[thegreekdog]

Until you show me data that NCLB is making it much worse, I choose not to take your word for it.

[PLAYER57832]

Until you show me data that NCLB is making it much worse, I choose not to take your word for it.

presented in the other thread. Also, where is your data showing that it does work?

[TheSaxlad]

Public School where kids excel at becoming conservatives like their parents, or rebel and become liberals.

[BigBallinStalin]

One might also suggest that the majority of people are unable to handle any more than a basic education, which thus leads me, at least, to wonder at the dumbing down of secondary education and increasing the numbers attending tertiary education. Big Brother himself would have been proud of that modern development.

But, but, but... I thought we wanted all young students to go to college!?!?!

Actually even deciding that you need to disinguish kids in that way is part of the mistake.

If you look at how some of our great thinkers and leaders were REALLY trained (as opposed to how people want to pretend they were trained), you see some consistancies. Specifically, many were brought up very much in tune with the world around them in various ways. Many grew up on farms, because that was what there was. Jefferson used his farm as a biological laboratory. Edison, similarly, could not have gotten where he did without the ability to experiment, tinker and create that came from his upbringing. Those things are being systematically eliminated and it is not just the kids who want to grow up to work in factories who suffer, it is ALL kids. We are creating a bunch of decentralized, specialized robots, along with a mass of barely functioning automots. We USED TO create truly individualized and creative thinkers.

This is the biggest difference between me and many of the younger folks here. There are fundamental reasons why folks like BK, me, even Saxi all but head with many of the younger, not just conservative, but very narrow thinking individuals here. I disagree with Saxi (well, the personal he presents anyway), BK, etc on many issues, but we all are able to understand each other reasonably well and hold reasonable conversations because we all have recieved educations that allow us to do that. Too many of the younger folks make it clear they have not gotten any such education. If it were only in CC, that would not be a big deal. Except... I see the same thing in many steads and many locations.

Thankfully, there still are spots of shining exception and diversity, but it is getting harder and harder for them to maintain. FAR too much of a teacher's job today is about circumventing rules so they can actually teach. NCLB simply stands in the way of good learning, it definitely does not help.

Whenever you're telling a story about good v. bad, imagine that you're pushing a button which lowers your IQ by 10 points or more. -Tyler Cowen