what is the goal of public school? (serious debate, please)

[PLAYER57832]

Serious question. Our local school is reviewing how they assess students. I have an opportunity to submit some serious suggestions.

I know this came up before, but I believe it wound into a lot of esoteric and not really practical suggestions. (my fault as much as anyones).

For example, I would LOVE to say that we need foreign language or sign language as standard at the elementary level, but it just is not going to happen right now.

My overall idea is that education is as much about helping students know how to find the answers as knowing facts themselves. (know how the periodic table works, as opposed to necessarily memorizing all the elements).

This means having a basic understanding of math up through at least algebra & trig (access to calculus, for better students), but ALSO statistics and sampling. In writing, I am less worried about handwriting. Typing & basic computer fluency are probably more important now. Definitely kids should be able to construct reasonable sentences, paragraphs. They should have some knowledge of a range of literature.. again, so they have an idea of all that is "out there" and can find things they might like or use.

They need a basic understanding of not just our history, but also world history and where we sit in this history - -why are we who we are, as opposed to other countries. What makes us unique and different, why did other countries take other routes. What are the pluses and minuses. (some students get this on a very basic level.. just the rough idea of differences in other countries, some will be able to engage in truly good debate and thought on this). In this, teachers who can play "devil's advocate' are great for high school. I will never forget (as a white student in a largely homogenic and upper class community) hearing my history teacher explain southern culture to us all. He in no way justified racism, but explained rather the southern perspective on things, why southerners were racist, etc. -- for us, it was a good message because we were largely judgemental PC idiots at that point, going on to highly PC schools. (on the other hand, he was quick to correct the few true racist in our classes on their misconceptions as well.. his goal was to make us think outside our normal trains of thought, to get us to actually consider other perspectives). Not ironically, I came away from that class with a greater understanding of both the need for things like affirmative action AND a better idea of what the endpoint in that ought to be.. (the realization that the "endpoint" was hopefully going to come in my lifetime.)

In science, I think kids need to understand what makes proof, how the scientific process truly works, how things get "accepted" in science and how to disprove "accepted" science.

[PepperJack]

The goal of public schools is to provide the most economical form of mass baby sitting possible, thereby allowing a greater number of parents to remain in the workforce.

There is also some educating, but that is happenstance.

[edocsil]

The goal of public schools is to provide the most economical form of mass baby sitting possible, thereby allowing a greater number of parents to remain in the workforce.

There is also some educating, but that is happenstance.

I would go with this one. Player, I nominally agree with you on all your points, those are what should be taught in schools, I do differ on the science bit, but w/e. Public schooling is what the student makes of it, nothing more. Many of the teachers don't care, especially at the general level classes (AP, or IB teachers are a lot different) and many of the students care about as much as the teachers do. Honestly what I think should be taught is machine shop, engineering, car repair and that sort of thing as a required elective. Public school kids who have an interest in schooling will learn pretty well all on their own, they are motivated. Its the others that you have to work on. A lot of kids from public schools will go into more of a blue collar job, if you can get them to get a 2 year engineering degree, or a machinists license they can pretty easily be making $40 grand a year. Beats the hell out of going to high school and then going to work at walmart.

[pimpdave]

But then who'll work at Walmart?

[john9blue]

For example, I would LOVE to say that we need foreign language or sign language as standard at the elementary level, but it just is not going to happen right now.

i disagree, learning another language is simply learning to express ideas and concepts in a different way. it is more important to learn about the ideas and concepts in the first place. it's entirely possible to be a success only knowing one language.

My overall idea is that education is as much about helping students know how to find the answers as knowing facts themselves. (know how the periodic table works, as opposed to necessarily memorizing all the elements).

true, and public school doesn't do a very good job of this, but then again, it's a tall order to teach this kind of thing to children.

learning how to find and process new information is one of the most important and underrated skills a person can have. unlike past u.s. presidents or the periodic table, it applies throughout one's entire life and everyone ought to learn it.

[DoomYoshi]

I noticed you left out the arts, except literature. I would suggest that Math being another language, you can drop the foreign language. Also, if you add Music, the Universal language, you have 3 languages that people worldwide can understand.

[Nola_Lifer]

The best classes I ever had as a student were my Latin and Greek classes. Learning ancient Latin and Greek isn't easy but it can be fun reading about mythology and understanding of thee fundamental stories. I learned more about life in these classes than I did in any other class. Education should also include creativity, such as, writing, drawing/painting, sculpture and music. These develop both the right side and the left side of the brain. Also, I think student should learn how to grow and take care of plants specially edibles. History is important but more importantly is understanding how our government works, how other governments work, and why we vote etc. Last thing that should be added to education is some sort of trade. Lets face it, not everyone is into school and sitting and learning, but if you can engage a child into doing some sort of hands on/trade skill then won't you be enabling that kid better for the future.

But then who'll work at Walmart?

What part of serious debate do you not get? If you have nothing to say, then don't say shit.

[alex951]

More hands on work. Uniforms. stricter rules in elementary. a small tuition fee.

[muy_thaiguy]

I was explained to about this by one of my high school teachers. He had said the primary reason was for socialization between the students. The secondary was education.

[Phatscotty]

The goal of public education is to provide average education at exponentially higher prices

[Phatscotty]

But then who'll work at Walmart?

Senior citizens who enjoy the sweet reality of a social security retirement that just doesn't seem to go as far as it used to?

[Mr_Adams]

What it is, seriously, is a mass indoctrination system. You have all of these teachers, who get their full income from the state. There is absolutely no reason for these people to critically look at the government, and they have massive influence over children, so, they raise (as pepper jack pointed out, mass babysitting) a bunch of brainwashed monkeys of the government. This is why students aught to be given more choice about what they read, and more room to interpret for themselves what texts mean. Teachers should be around to teach mathematics, sciences, etc. History & culture should be taught be required reading from a standardized reading. each book should be assigned a value (say 1 to 10), and in a year, a student should be required to read X points worth of literature. they should not be aloud to reread year to year. There should be a required essay on each book read. NO books should be chosen by the teachers, only by the students. Arts, music, and grammar can be taught as well.

[john9blue]

What it is, seriously, is a mass indoctrination system. You have all of these teachers, who get their full income from the state. There is absolutely no reason for these people to critically look at the government, and they have massive influence over children, so, they raise (as pepper jack pointed out, mass babysitting) a bunch of brainwashed monkeys of the government. This is why students aught to be given more choice about what they read, and more room to interpret for themselves what texts mean. Teachers should be around to teach mathematics, sciences, etc. History & culture should be taught be required reading from a standardized reading. each book should be assigned a value (say 1 to 10), and in a year, a student should be required to read X points worth of literature. they should not be aloud to reread year to year. There should be a required essay on each book read. NO books should be chosen by the teachers, only by the students. Arts, music, and grammar can be taught as well.

good in theory, but you have far too much faith in children. lol

[spurgistan]

I was explained to about this by one of my high school teachers. He had said the primary reason was for socialization between the students. The secondary was education.

That's a pretty good take. I'd add something about fostering a sense of creativity and desire for learning, which should be contrasted with the model of "Learn this. Now," but yeah, socialization's a good base.

[Mr_Adams]

What it is, seriously, is a mass indoctrination system. You have all of these teachers, who get their full income from the state. There is absolutely no reason for these people to critically look at the government, and they have massive influence over children, so, they raise (as pepper jack pointed out, mass babysitting) a bunch of brainwashed monkeys of the government. This is why students aught to be given more choice about what they read, and more room to interpret for themselves what texts mean. Teachers should be around to teach mathematics, sciences, etc. History & culture should be taught be required reading from a standardized reading. each book should be assigned a value (say 1 to 10), and in a year, a student should be required to read X points worth of literature. they should not be aloud to reread year to year. There should be a required essay on each book read. NO books should be chosen by the teachers, only by the students. Arts, music, and grammar can be taught as well.

good in theory, but you have far too much faith in children. lol

Perhaps I should mention that this is my opinion of how schools should be run after about... 5th grade. 5 years to train kids for a real classical academic surrounding, and then start true development.

[Mr Changsha]

To perpetuate the class divide, homosexuality and the empire spirit.

[BigBallinStalin]

Here's something useful:

http://www.schlechtycenter.org/
http://www.schlechtycenter.org/tools/free

[b.k. barunt]

To perpetuate the class divide, homosexuality and the empire spirit.

Let's see what he left out here . . . damn . . . a rather concise summation actually. Carry on.


Honibaz

[tonbomorphew]

....

[b.k. barunt]

Oh snap! The Swiss have discovered that finding and processing new info is unnecessary if you're multilingual. Huzzah!

Whatthefuck is "Romansh"? Sounds like a drunk trying to be artsy.


Honibaz

[saxitoxin]

Where the hell have you been, Tony? Serbia and I thought you were dead.

oh hai, u2

Anyway - what is the goal of public school?

The same as the goal of food stamps or social security; to provide a basic safety net when all else utterly and completely fails. Most of today's consumer-breeders, however, use the welfare schools as a primary source of training for their human pets, even when possessing the means or options of alternatives. Alex is correct ... adding tuition (while maintaining the compulsory nature of K-12 education) would deter consumer-breeders from over-breeding, thereby helping arrest global warming by introducing negative population growth.

Speaking to schools generally, in the DDR (I think in a little also the FRG, but I don't know) Kindergartens were replaced by Waldkindergarten, which is the Outdoors Kindergarten. The Kindergarten happens in a field or a forest or a big pile of bark chips instead of a building; even a pre-fab building of corrugated aluminum it does not happen in! Outdoors all the time. When the children of ages 3-6 range are outdoors all day and are not given any toys it detaches their mental development from industrial-consumer society and imbues them with an agrarian worldview which encourages professional development as artisans, craftsmen or labourers.

[Phatscotty]

For example, I would LOVE to say that we need foreign language or sign language as standard at the elementary level, but it just is not going to happen right now.

i disagree, learning another language is simply learning to express ideas and concepts in a different way. it is more important to learn about the ideas and concepts in the first place. it's entirely possible to be a success only knowing one language.

My overall idea is that education is as much about helping students know how to find the answers as knowing facts themselves. (know how the periodic table works, as opposed to necessarily memorizing all the elements).

true, and public school doesn't do a very good job of this, but then again, it's a tall order to teach this kind of thing to children.

learning how to find and process new information is one of the most important and underrated skills a person can have. unlike past u.s. presidents or the periodic table, it applies throughout one's entire life and everyone ought to learn it.

Not in Switzerland we learn
+French
+German
+Italian
+Romansh
in kindergarten

and

Is that because you guys are smarter there, or because of geographic realities and dominating influences?

[Crazyirishman]

I remember that King Frederick of Prussia kinda started the whole public education thing.

The classes that are 'needed' are completely different depending upon where you live regionally, especially in the united states. The classes that people take vary depending on what kinds of jobs a available and need in that region. For example, Spanish classes and agricultural classes are take more in Colorado where that is a larger Hispanic Population, and where still a large portion of student go into a farming related field, as compare to the New England region where the culture is different, more industrialized and thus students often pursue careers orientated more in that area.

[PLAYER57832]

Thanks folks, some good thoughts there.

I did rather skip the humanities, but more because I have been fighting a nasty case of strep than lack of appreciation.

One thing I have found, though. Compartmentalizing too much is a mistake. You can teach math through the humanities if that is what gets kids to pay attention OR you can teach art and science through sports, woodworking, etc.

[BigBallinStalin]

Yes, indeed. You can crisscross all over the place...

if ya know what I mean <wiggles eyebrows>