Argue from the wrong point of view (religion edition)

[jonesthecurl]

Oh, you need to read your bible. It's all in there if you read it properly.

[PLAYER57832]

AH but, you see, just as Adam was created adult, but could not have been distinguished physically from a human being formed through conception, so God created the universe as an adult, indistinguishable from a unverse that had emerged from a Big Bang. And, even though we can see stars being formed today (and by implication our "scientific" notions of how stars form are therefore correct), that doesn't mean that the Sun wasn't created looking like a G-type star in the middle of the main sequence. It was just created old.
In the same way, the Earth was formed with pre-existing fossils - just as it had pre-existing topsoil (normally formed by decay of organic matter) and pre-existing mountains (normally formed by volcanic activity or continental drift).

(edited to sort out quotes properly)

Adam was created as an adult? Pre-existng fossils"? Where in the Bible does it say this?

Aside from that, this just does not make logical sense.


(oops gotta stay away from the fossil issue, I suppose, I am in the "other" camp on that one! ... then again, let me see if I can come up with a scientific view for a young Earth).

[b.k. barunt]

I like to scrape the filling off the Oreo and eat just the cookie part.


Honibaz

[jonesthecurl]

No more does it say that Adam had oxygen in his bloodstream at the moment of his creation - but it's a logical conclusion.

[luns101]

Oh, you need to read your bible. It's all in there if you read it properly.

The thing is, Jones...there's so many people that can interpret the Bible the way they want that nobody can be assured of anything in the Bible being authentic. There are stories from other cultures which also provide their own interpretation of how our planet came about. Why are their stories any less truthful than the Bible?

[Balsiefen]

This thread is brilliant for showing just how well (or badly) people are understanding each other's arguments. With some of the posts here it's no wonder we have endless circular debates.

Anyway, I'm agnostic but I usually argue towards atheism so I'll have a go at creationist.

Oh, you need to read your bible. It's all in there if you read it properly.

The thing is, Jones...there's so many people that can interpret the Bible the way they want that nobody can be assured of anything in the Bible being authentic. There are stories from other cultures which also provide their own interpretation of how our planet came about. Why are their stories any less truthful than the Bible?

Often you will find in other cultures that similar events to that of the bible are recorded (the flood is a prime example). This indicates that major events in the bible did happen and have lasted down the histories and legends of some other cultures, though God did not afterwards choose them as his people. As for the Bible itself, I feel it is often rather slandered in reports of it being changed over the years to suit views at the time when in fact, early evidence such as the dead sea scrolls is largely similar. As for interpreting the Bible the way you want, the Bible is written, you can interpret it literally or ignore parts of it. If you truly interpret it literally, you will have no disagreement with those who do the same.

[PLAYER57832]

As for the Bible itself, I feel it is often rather slandered in reports of it being changed over the years to suit views at the time when in fact, early evidence such as the dead sea scrolls is largely similar. As for interpreting the Bible the way you want, the Bible is written, you can interpret it literally or ignore parts of it. If you truly interpret it literally, you will have no disagreement with those who do the same.

If you can ignore parts, then what good is it? Who gets to decide which parts to ignore and which not?

[PLAYER57832]

Oh, you need to read your bible. It's all in there if you read it properly.

First, as Luns just pointed out what makes the Bible such a wonderful and believable text anyway? Its just one group of people's ideas, translated over and over. Sure, some things corrospond with real archeological data, but many things simply don't.

Then you have to ask which part of the Bible we are supposed to believe. There are too many contradictions. It says "do not kill".. but then God commands everyone to go off and kill.

What of that whole book of Job.. God standing by while Satan does those horrible things to this poor guy who was doing what he should?

Never mind this whole idea of one man dying on the cross and somehow everyone's sins are just forgiven? What evidence do you have that I can believe. Show me and maybe I will believe! Those so-called "miracles" you want to be proof? Not even close ... they can all be explained by modern science.

[jonesthecurl]

Oh, you need to read your bible. It's all in there if you read it properly.

The thing is, Jones...there's so many people that can interpret the Bible the way they want that nobody can be assured of anything in the Bible being authentic. There are stories from other cultures which also provide their own interpretation of how our planet came about. Why are their stories any less truthful than the Bible?

Well, obviously they are wrong since they don't accept Jesus as their saviour.

[Juan_Bottom]

First, as Luns just pointed out what makes the Bible such a wonderful and believable text anyway? Its just one group of people's ideas,

While the bible itself may be studied and believed by one group of people, it belongs to all of us. And I believe that all people's have the same basic principles as the 10 Commandments. Show me what nation encourages it's people to lie, cheat, steal, and kill? I believe there is a reason for this. Maybe some people won't believe the connection.

Then you have to ask which part of the Bible we are supposed to believe. There are too many contradictions. It says "do not kill".. but then God commands everyone to go off and kill.

God is God. The bible says that we cannot know his plan. And I don't pretend too. I mean, God is not one of his creatures. He can take anoyone's life that he chooses, it's his divine right to bring them home.

Let me try to tell you a story though. Recently in my hometown a police officer shot and killed a dog. The family wanted to sue, and the community was outraged. The family put a big picture of the dog in their front yard that said "remember me!" But then a couple days later our newspaper had a report on it. The officer had shot the dog after it had killed some elses cat. It was roaming the streets alone, and came at the officer in an agressive maner.
Do you see my point? In this story the police officer is like God. It's hard to understand him and what he does until you know the whole story.
The only thing that ever conserns me is that God loves all of us and gives everyone choices. Even though we may not understand them.

What of that whole book of Job.. God standing by while Satan does those horrible things to this poor guy who was doing what he should?

God gave Job a choice. and that choice has helped to save thousand or perhaps millions through the ages. It is a story of strenght and courage that has empowered many of his flock. Though I suppose the pessimistic might see it as a story of pain and torture. I'm sure that you would say the same thing about the sacrific of Jesus Christ.

Never mind this whole idea of one man dying on the cross and somehow everyone's sins are just forgiven? What evidence do you have that I can believe. Show me and maybe I will believe! Those so-called "miracles" you want to be proof? Not even close ... they can all be explained by modern science.

lol, you'll have a hard time proving all of them!!!! Try showing that a man can live inside the mouth of a fish!!! Science can't do it, nor can it disprove it. God can do anything because God is God.
But maybe it's not the journey, it's the lesson. Maybe those stories aren't ment to be understood literally, maybe they are ment to be understood spiritually.

Sure you can say "well the Nile turned red because of bacteria and that also killed all the fish. All the rotten fish attracted bugs. So then there were more frogs to go with the bugs..." and on and on. But isn't it better just to take home the message that God will always take care of his people? Or that slavery is wrong? Or that those who work hard will get somelace in life?

This is friggin hard BTW...

This thread is brilliant for showing just how well (or badly) people are understanding each other's arguments. With some of the posts here it's no wonder we have endless circular debates.

This was actually part of my intent! To show how well we actually listen. The "endless circular debates" was part of it too. I figured that we will debate it again anyway, so why not mix it up?

[PLAYER57832]

This is friggin hard BTW...

Agreed, though I think we have heard a lot of these arguments

This thread is brilliant for showing just how well (or badly) people are understanding each other's arguments. With some of the posts here it's no wonder we have endless circular debates.

This was actually part of my intent! To show how well we actually listen. The "endless circular debates" was part of it too. I figured that we will debate it again anyway, so why not mix it up?[/quote]

I think some people listen quite well... and ironically that makes it harder, because we have to not just sound of on blather we don't believe, but have to reword concise arguments and points from people with whom we disagree, but fundamentally respect.

(at least for me, that's the tough part).

[luns101]

Often you will find in other cultures that similar events to that of the bible are recorded (the flood is a prime example). This indicates that major events in the bible did happen and have lasted down the histories and legends of some other cultures, though God did not afterwards choose them as his people. As for the Bible itself, I feel it is often rather slandered in reports of it being changed over the years to suit views at the time when in fact, early evidence such as the dead sea scrolls is largely similar. As for interpreting the Bible the way you want, the Bible is written, you can interpret it literally or ignore parts of it. If you truly interpret it literally, you will have no disagreement with those who do the same.

I see, but that still goes back to circular reasoning. The Bible is the one true source of revealed truth whether it's about sociology, philosophy, history, etc. Other cultures are just taking historical bits and pieces of the Biblical accounts, which is supposed to reflect that the Bible is correct and they're all just copy-cats to a certain extent. That's all based on the original assumption that the Bible is true in the first place. The assumption confirms the conclusion and then the conclusion points back to the original claim.

Look, I respect your views and if that's how you want to live your life then good for you. Some people need to rely on a set of religious principles to aid them through life...whether it be Christianity or whatever. I'd rather trust what I can empirically know.

[luns101]

Oh, you need to read your bible. It's all in there if you read it properly.

The thing is, Jones...there's so many people that can interpret the Bible the way they want that nobody can be assured of anything in the Bible being authentic. There are stories from other cultures which also provide their own interpretation of how our planet came about. Why are their stories any less truthful than the Bible?

Well, obviously they are wrong since they don't accept Jesus as their saviour.

Huh? That's obviously an intellectual cop-out. Why is there only one way to live your life? I do just fine without Jesus and to be honest, my marriage & family life is more moral than a majority of religious folks in my community. It seems to me that God isn't really necessary.


This isn't necessarily directed @ Jones but to all the Christians or theists out there...nobody has answered my original questions about why an all-loving God would allow such suffering to occur in this world - especially at the hands of His followers.

[b.k. barunt]

OK, so did Adam have a navel?


Honibaz

[Juan_Bottom]

nobody has answered my original questions about why an all-loving God would allow such suffering to occur in this world - especially at the hands of His followers.

Luns I think that I did;

God is God. The bible says that we cannot know his plan. And I don't pretend too. I mean, God is not one of his creatures. He can take anoyone's life that he chooses, it's his divine right to bring them home.

Let me try to tell you a story though. Recently in my hometown a police officer shot and killed a dog. The family wanted to sue, and the community was outraged. The family put a big picture of the dog in their front yard that said "remember me!" But then a couple days later our newspaper had a report on it. The officer had shot the dog after it had killed some elses cat. It was roaming the streets alone, and came at the officer in an agressive maner.
Do you see my point? In this story the police officer is like God. It's hard to understand him and what he does until you know the whole story.
The only thing that ever conserns me is that God loves all of us and gives everyone choices. Even though we may not understand them.

[luns101]

Sorry Juan, I didn't see that originally and didn't know it was directed towards me.

In your example, you compare God to a policeman. The Christian God is also supposed to have ultimate foreknowledge. Why did He allow this circumstance to take place? It seems to me that if He was truly all-knowing He could have prevented something bad from occurring in the first place (your example of the dog being shot just as an example). The other alternative is that God did have foreknowledge and was unable to prevent the incident from happening. This would mean He is not all-powerful as Christians suggest.

A third option which just came to mind while responding to you is that God is all-knowing & all-powerful, but chose not to prevent the bad thing from happening. This would contradict the claim that God is good, benevolent, or whatever term you wish to describe His nature in positive terms.

[AAFitz]

Jay just typed something that didnt make sense

Humor me, I'm trying to think like an atheist here!

actually, I was posting from the wrong point of view. Your post actually made perfect sense.
this time I mean what im typing
seriously...its from the right point of view
do not translate it backwards...
hmmm this is all pointless

millers crossing: up is down and black is white

[Juan_Bottom]

Why did He allow this circumstance to take place?

It's not that he allowed it to take place, it's that he allowed the police officer to make his own choice. If God had saved the dog at the last second, then there never would have been a choice. You wouldn't follow your kids to off to college... or to the movies with their date... or to their job would you? But that doesn't mean that you don't want them to make the right choices. You have a plan for them, and God has a plan for you.

The other alternative is that God did have foreknowledge and was unable to prevent the incident from happening. This would mean He is not all-powerful as Christians suggest.

I don't believe that a God who can create the universe was unable to stop a dog from being killed. lol

A third option which just came to mind while responding to you is that God is all-knowing & all-powerful, but chose not to prevent the bad thing from happening. This would contradict the claim that God is good, benevolent, or whatever term you wish to describe His nature in positive terms.

I would say the proof that God is good is that he didn't protect the dog.
Had he stopped the police officer, that would have ment that he never gave the police officer any choices. That life is "my way or the highway." But God isn't like that. God doesn't want us to be some puppet on a string. And besides, it's impossable for us to know what is the right thing for God to do.



I have to get out of here before I start to understand the noble opposition.................

[AAFitz]

Dinosaurs and man lived side by side 6000 years ago, when the earth was created. Its why the legends of dragons were created....But, God made the earth, then deposited the seeds and the plants, then created the sun and the rest of the stars and galaxies the next day. He naturally created them so that they would be moving very quickly from the center of the universe as we know it, and made all seem as though they have existed and have been evolving for billions of years. Acutally, he may have created all the heavens first, and simply made a time bubble for the earth for 6 days, while the rest of the heavens aged over the billions of years that it seems they have been. The evidence shows it clearly.

Then, he got mad, and since the dinosaurs were eating all the people, and were clearly going to gobble them all up, he told Noah to make a big arc. He let all the good animals, and the ones that man would actually have a chance against, get in. He drowned the rest, because they really were too big, and as intelligent as man was, he was losing ground. He actually let Jesus make the dinosaurs and was losing the bet on which would survive, so he had to even the odds a bit...He finally let the water level drop...noah shot around to the various continents to let out the various "kinds" into their habitats, and they all quickly micro-evolved...macro evolution is impossible...micro evolution has to have happened though...so that is possible..

God then decided to drop some oil and diamonds for us. The diamonds are pretty, and oil has a bunch of uses...including the benefit of releasing a massive amount of C02 when burned, which has helped us warm up the earth nicely. Its very useful in creating some excellent carcinogens too, which are just great at convincing people to pray when they get said cancers. The plan was absolutely brilliant.

In the end, he will destroy all this and bring everyone back. It was just a quick little play date anyways, and Jesus really wants the planet back for his dinosaur collection.

[jonesthecurl]

OK, so did Adam have a navel?


Honibaz

hmm - it doesn't say. But I'm guessing "yes", since he would have been created as a normal functioning adult.

[jonesthecurl]

Dinosaurs and man lived side by side 6000 years ago, when the earth was created. Its why the legends of dragons were created....But, God made the earth, then deposited the seeds and the plants, then created the sun and the rest of the stars and galaxies the next day. He naturally created them so that they would be moving very quickly from the center of the universe as we know it, and made all seem as though they have existed and have been evolving for billions of years. Acutally, he may have created all the heavens first, and simply made a time bubble for the earth for 6 days, while the rest of the heavens aged over the billions of years that it seems they have been. The evidence shows it clearly.

Then, he got mad, and since the dinosaurs were eating all the people, and were clearly going to gobble them all up, he told Noah to make a big arc. He let all the good animals, and the ones that man would actually have a chance against, get in. He drowned the rest, because they really were too big, and as intelligent as man was, he was losing ground. He actually let Jesus make the dinosaurs and was losing the bet on which would survive, so he had to even the odds a bit...He finally let the water level drop...noah shot around to the various continents to let out the various "kinds" into their habitats, and they all quickly micro-evolved...macro evolution is impossible...micro evolution has to have happened though...so that is possible..

God then decided to drop some oil and diamonds for us. The diamonds are pretty, and oil has a bunch of uses...including the benefit of releasing a massive amount of C02 when burned, which has helped us warm up the earth nicely. Its very useful in creating some excellent carcinogens too, which are just great at convincing people to pray when they get said cancers. The plan was absolutely brilliant.

In the end, he will destroy all this and bring everyone back. It was just a quick little play date anyways, and Jesus really wants the planet back for his dinosaur collection.

Now, you're just mocking. You know that God made trolls too, right?

[2dimes]

Noah built an "arc"? You faggot creationists, an arc is a curved line, that's science! Stop talking about things you have no clue about. Where's your god and his spell check now?

[john9blue]

Noah built an "arc"? You faggot creationists, an arc is a curved line, that's science! Stop talking about things you have no clue about. Where's your god and his spell check now?

God doesn't need spell check, that's like saying Chuck Norris needs crutches.

[2dimes]

Noah built an "arc"? You faggot creationists, an arc is a curved line, that's science! Stop talking about things you have no clue about. Where's your god and his spell check now?

God doesn't need spell check, that's like saying Chuck Norris needs crutches.

Wait, which side are you taking?

[Juan_Bottom]

Noah built an "arc"? You faggot creationists, an arc is a curved line, that's science! Stop talking about things you have no clue about. Where's your god and his spell check now?

God doesn't need spell check, that's like saying Chuck Norris needs crutches.

Wait, which side are you taking?

Chuck Norris doesn't wear a watch because HE decides what time it is. God doesn't need spell check because HE decides what a word means.

GOD: Hey 2dimes splynkydink, lol!

2DIMES: lol God, splynkydink isn't a wor---oh oh oh God I'm on fire!!! Ow OOW it's burning OOOH it hurts so much! Ow!!! halp Oh ow!!!!

GOD: lol, it is now biatch.