U.S. Drinking Age

[PLAYER57832]

I've been legally drinking since I was 16. I think one of the best advantages of that has been that I know how much alcohol affects your skill so I will never drive drunk. I basically experienced shit situations with alcohol before I had to deal with being responsible.

One huge difference between Europe and the US is driving. In the US, we don't talk so much about a basic drinking problem, per se. It is a problem, but a relatively minor one. The real issue is drinking and driving. The driving age in many European countries is older (still 18 in most countries, I believe?). Even when people can drive, they are as likely to ride bikes, walk or take a bus. While that does not necessarily change the rates of alchohol abuse, it definitely makes the consequences less severe.

The driving issue -- more people are still killed every year in the US than in all 3 World Wars combined -- combined with a history of religious prudence, is, I believe why the US and Europe view alchohol so very differently.

[Snorri1234]

I've been legally drinking since I was 16. I think one of the best advantages of that has been that I know how much alcohol affects your skill so I will never drive drunk. I basically experienced shit situations with alcohol before I had to deal with being responsible.

One huge difference between Europe and the US is driving. In the US, we don't talk so much about a basic drinking problem, per se. It is a problem, but a relatively minor one. The real issue is drinking and driving. The driving age in many European countries is older (still 18 in most countries, I believe?). Even when people can drive, they are as likely to ride bikes, walk or take a bus. While that does not necessarily change the rates of alchohol abuse, it definitely makes the consequences less severe.

The driving issue -- more people are still killed every year in the US than in all 3 World Wars combined -- combined with a history of religious prudence, is, I believe why the US and Europe view alchohol so very differently.

Yep it's 18 here. And while less drinking and driving is partly due to distances being smaller, it's also due to people having experience with drinking before they get a drivers license. Even if I go to a party by car I always sleep there instead of going back at night.

[PLAYER57832]

Yep it's 18 here. And while less drinking and driving is partly due to distances being smaller, it's also due to people having experience with drinking before they get a drivers license. Even if I go to a party by car I always sleep there instead of going back at night.

Some teens/ young adults are beginning to do that more here, too. However, that gets into another more American taboo. Far fewer parents are willing to let their teens have a "sleepover" than European parents... particularly if alchohol is involved.

However, if more experience with alchohol before driving were really a reason, then we should see a decrease in drunk driving incidents as people get into their mid to late 20's and beyond. I don't believe that is the case. Teen crashes make the headlines, but a look at the DUI roster shows far more older drinkers than young ones.

[muy_thaiguy]

I can see both sides of this. With having the drinking age below 21, the alcohol tends to screw around with the brain as it isn't as developed as it is when you are about 21 years of age. However, I know many people under age that still drink, and their drunken stories serve as a basis of me staying sober. Especially when someone wakes up in the morning in some stranger's yard and don't remember how they got there.

Also, I know many kids form the Junior High age on up that have had parents that allowed them to drink. They were not the brightest people I have ever met.

[PLAYER57832]

I can see both sides of this. With having the drinking age below 21, the alcohol tends to screw around with the brain as it isn't as developed as it is when you are about 21 years of age. However, I know many people under age that still drink, and their drunken stories serve as a basis of me staying sober. Especially when someone wakes up in the morning in some stranger's yard and don't remember how they got there.

Also, I know many kids form the Junior High age on up that have had parents that allowed them to drink. They were not the brightest people I have ever met.

But it sound like you are talking about heavy use of primarily harder alchohol. What of just allowing beer and wine under parental supervision?

Also, will a change in the law change any of that? People from screwed up families will tend to act in screwed up ways.

[Woodruff]

Your comment about teenagers being 'dumbfucks' as you so eloquently put it strikes me as a comment made out of ignorance. Of course there are idiots out there, but there are lot of people of that age who are much more responsible than you first might think.

I would not have believed it before I became a high school teacher, but you are absolutely correct. But there really are a lot of dumbfucks too. <chuckle>

Well, there you go, you've had first hand experience of working with teenagers and know the truth . The media portray scare stories all the time, of what alcohol makes a select minority do at a young age. They talk about teenagers drinking on the streets posing a danger to local communities and use this as an excuse to claim that the age limit for alcohol is sensible, or should be increased. What they don't understand, is that teenagers will always be able to get alcohol, either by raiding parents liquor cabinets or by using older accomplices. Now if the age limit was 18 then street crime would be reduced as 18+s will be an establishment where they can be watched by the barkeep who also has the right to not serve them if they are thinking they are too bladdered, so in essence there is in fact another check on them. If they were just drinking on the streets, they may not know their limits and actually know when to stop but in a more controlled environment it is actually clearer.

Absolutely. The higher age limit does contribute to alcohol abuse, without question. Though lack of parental reaction also does.

[Woodruff]

Consider:

(1) The "driving age" in most states ranges from 16 years old to 18 years old.
(2) The age at which one can enlist in the armed forces is 18 years old. Presumably one can drive a tank at that age.
(3) The age at which one can vote is 18 years old.

I do personally think the drinking age in the U.S. is reasonable. What disappoints me the most about this particular subject isn't that underage kids drink, but rather the total irresponsibility of so many parents in handling their children and alcohol abuse.

Yes, but alchohol abuse and alchohol use are not the same thing.

Oh, no argument. I wasn't really speaking of alcohol use there...I was speaking specifically of parents not handling their children and alcohol ABUSE. Too many parents just cast a blind eye to it, and it makes me sick. I think alcohol ABUSE is a far more serious problem in this country among teens than underage drinking is.

[Simon Viavant]

It seems most of us agree the drinking age should be lowered, but it probably isn't gonna happen. If anyone proposed that their oponent would have a field day in the next election with all the freaked out PC parents and such about how X candidate supports binge drinking.

[Hologram]

Consider:
(2) The age at which one can enlist in the armed forces is 18 years old. Presumably one can drive a tank at that age.

Or take another man's life. Or die for his country. Also, it's 17 years old, with parental/guardian consent.

[jonesthecurl]

You need to meet the majority of American teenagers. It's almost like some of them idolize retards. I was embarrassed to be in the same generation through high school, and now I'm just embarrassed to be in the same species as the mock "adults" they've developed into, due to the brain damage incurred by substances.

I stressed the fact that there are enough exceptions to defeat the stereotype, but then: no smoke without fire. Legal or not, anyone can get alcohol almost anywhere. Europe is more mature as a society (from what I can tell), and I don't understand why you would take "risks" to drink in dark alleys etc. It's just alcohol, plenty of time in the world, and in life, to kill brain cells.

Maybe Europe is a more mature society because they have a different drinking age.

Part of the problem with teenagers these days is that they are, by and large, overly coddled by their parents. I've heard recently that parents have begun to write letters to UNIVERSITIES(!) to discuss their childrens' grades. These types of phemonenon have led to the horrible sense of entitlement that I have begun to see in some of my younger co-workers.

In any event, I still think there should be no drinking age in the US. It doesn't matter if you're drunk and 15 or drunk and 35, you act like an idiot, you're still going to get arrested (if you get caught). I think that's enough to curb any idiocy through drinking problems.

Beat the damn shit out of our kids is the answer! Of course when they f*ck up or do somethin stupid.

Why wait till they eff up? We all know they will. Just whale the tar out of em for the fun of it.

[Hologram]

It seems most of us agree the drinking age should be lowered, but it probably isn't gonna happen. If anyone proposed that their oponent would have a field day in the next election with all the freaked out PC parents and such about how X candidate supports binge drinking.

Well no shit. I just have a problem with the discrepancy of being able to fight, kill, and die for your country, but not be trusted with a bottle of beer.

[muy_thaiguy]

I can see both sides of this. With having the drinking age below 21, the alcohol tends to screw around with the brain as it isn't as developed as it is when you are about 21 years of age. However, I know many people under age that still drink, and their drunken stories serve as a basis of me staying sober. Especially when someone wakes up in the morning in some stranger's yard and don't remember how they got there.

Also, I know many kids form the Junior High age on up that have had parents that allowed them to drink. They were not the brightest people I have ever met.

But it sound like you are talking about heavy use of primarily harder alchohol. What of just allowing beer and wine under parental supervision?

Also, will a change in the law change any of that? People from screwed up families will tend to act in screwed up ways.

I was talking about beer and wine, mainly beer, as I don't think Bud Light is a whiskey or lager. And I am talking about people from numerous backgrounds, not just one.

[Commander62890]

As an 18-yr-old, I wish they would drop it down at least to 18. It's really annoying having to get into bars without a fake I.D. Bars are a huge part of my college's social life, and to get in, we have to go through all this annoying bullshit with "passing back" other ppl's fake IDs. It takes like 30 minutes to get into a goddamn bar. Huge waste of time. And it's a good thing I even know ppl with fakes, or I would only be able to go to frat parties... which would get lame fast.

[Woodruff]

As an 18-yr-old, I wish they would drop it down at least to 18. It's really annoying having to get into bars without a fake I.D. Bars are a huge part of my college's social life, and to get in, we have to go through all this annoying bullshit with "passing back" other ppl's fake IDs. It takes like 30 minutes to get into a goddamn bar. Huge waste of time. And it's a good thing I even know ppl with fakes, or I would only be able to go to frat parties... which would get lame fast.

To be perfectly honest, using fake IDs to get into bars seems pretty lame to me.

[MeDeFe]

As an 18-yr-old, I wish they would drop it down at least to 18. It's really annoying having to get into bars without a fake I.D. Bars are a huge part of my college's social life, and to get in, we have to go through all this annoying bullshit with "passing back" other ppl's fake IDs. It takes like 30 minutes to get into a goddamn bar. Huge waste of time. And it's a good thing I even know ppl with fakes, or I would only be able to go to frat parties... which would get lame fast.

To be perfectly honest, using fake IDs to get into bars seems pretty lame to me.

Oh, I don't know, sounds like something you could off-handedly mention to your kids later and they'll go O.O "You did that when you were my age?"


I hadn't thought about it before, but I think it is possible that my experiences with alcohol before I got my driver's license reinforced the conviction that one does not drive under influence. Even when I was 18 I had no problem being the designated driver, and neither did any of my friends.

[JoshyBoy]

Apparently....

• You have never been drunk, and/or totally fucking wasted.
• You have never been a teenager.
• You have never met someone that is one of the above, or both at the same time.

Let me clue you in on the details:

Teenagers are dumb fucks. Some make better decisions than others, but for the most part they are the dumbest, and most dangerous, seed on the earth (dumber than young kids, because young kids aren't clever enough to do much damage).

Drunk people are dumb fucks. Some people handle their alcohol better than others, but for the most part you can't trust a drunk with anything more than: attempting to drink to the point of vomiting, being violent and/or clumsy, and then sticking you with the bill at the end of the night (assuming they're an average, kind-hearted drunk).

Drunk teenagers are DOUBLE dumb fucks. As if teenagers weren't reckless and chaotic when they're sober, when you leave them alone with enough alcohol to go around (don't forget party drugs + marijuana) you can pretty much guarantee that something is going to get destroyed (in the very least, their own bodies' depending on the natures of the kids involved).


We may disagree on the point of how stupid teenagers are, as I'm sure it varies to a degree from one area to the next, but I see no reason why the legal drinking age even makes a difference. Teenagers, if they so desire, can acquire alcohol. Whether it is from their parents' liquor cabinet, an older sibling running out to the store, or successfully using fake IDs, there is always a way to get it. Law enforcement just simply can't be guarding every single liquor store at once and keeping tabs on the alcoholic purchases of EVERYONE at the same time. No one has the resources to do that, nor does anyone care. Teenagers will get alcohol (and other abused substances) whether the law wants them to or not.

So, for years, teenagers can legally vote, join the army (and drive a tank ), drive a car, and smoke deathsticks the whole time. Who the f*ck cares? They're going to drink, drive, toke up, and do whatever else they want, ANYWAY. If they think they won't get caught, they'll do it. Some have the spine to do it even when they think they will get caught.... or have been caught before. It's their body, they can go ahead and f*ck it up if they want to, I don't give half a shit. If they regret it later on, good for them, they learned a lesson the hard way (even though their parents probably "told them so" a long time ago).

Let me get this right... you've never been a teenager...?

[PLAYER57832]

I really don't care what the drinking age is... that is up to your parents. I care that if kids do drink, there is one sane person around to at least make sure they don't drink so much they lay in beanbag, throw up and drown.

I care that whoever drinks is smart enough to know NOT to get in a vehicle (whether they think they are sober or not) and drive.

I care that you accept full and complete responsibility for whatever you do when drunk. And don't take advantage of someone else who is drunk in a serious way. (painting the guys up like a cheerleader is one thing... raping a cheerleader is something else).

Do that... and you are more mature than a good many of full drinking age.

[MaleAlphaThree]

I suppose I'll specify when I say, "Teenagers are dumbfucks." Teenagers that abuse alcohol in unfavorable circumstances are dumbfucks. The rest, that don't, not so much dumbfucks. The whole drinking and driving example brings up the idea of raising the age of driving, which is not going to happen either. Teenagers are REALLY bad at driving, pretty much all of them, especially if they don't have any experience (and aren't any good at video games). I would say that raising the driving age to 21 would help a bit, but these kinds of age limits that have been grandfathered in for so long won't change easily and would probably create more problems than people think they would solve.

The United States is at a developmental standstill in plenty of departments, especially in controlling teenagers. It's actually a fairly comfortable existence (outside of the obvious defects), and stereotyping the bad apples (dead teenagers) doesn't make things true or not. Why not have the governments change college ID's into alcohol passes? That's something I'm sure no one has thought of before. They're going to drink every weekend, anyway, why not sanction it and have clubs/bars accept college students on weekends (Fri-Sun)? It's like a compromise.

[PLAYER57832]

I suppose I'll specify when I say, "Teenagers are dumbfucks." Teenagers that abuse alcohol in unfavorable circumstances are dumbfucks. The rest, that don't, not so much dumbfucks. The whole drinking and driving example brings up the idea of raising the age of driving, which is not going to happen either. Teenagers are REALLY bad at driving, pretty much all of them, especially if they don't have any experience (and aren't any good at video games). I would say that raising the driving age to 21 would help a bit, but these kinds of age limits that have been grandfathered in for so long won't change easily and would probably create more problems than people think they would solve.

Actually, a lot of states are moving in that direction. In PA now, for example, there are limits on the number of passengers, driving after dark, etc.

The United States is at a developmental standstill in plenty of departments, especially in controlling teenagers.

I think I would say that mindset, that teens need to be "controlled" as opposed to being firmly intrincit to and part of our well functioning society, is part of the problem.

It's actually a fairly comfortable existence (outside of the obvious defects), and stereotyping the bad apples (dead teenagers) doesn't make things true or not. Why not have the governments change college ID's into alcohol passes? That's something I'm sure no one has thought of before. They're going to drink every weekend, anyway, why not sanction it and have clubs/bars accept college students on weekends (Fri-Sun)? It's like a compromise.

Some colleges have tried lowering the age limit on college. The problems are legal. Some military bases have done the same. Again, the problem is legal. However, typically you can get reactions along the lines of "you got a uniform.. that's an ID to me! you are obviously over 21!" However, officially, the law is the law.. everywhere.

[PLAYER57832]

I can see both sides of this. With having the drinking age below 21, the alcohol tends to screw around with the brain as it isn't as developed as it is when you are about 21 years of age. However, I know many people under age that still drink, and their drunken stories serve as a basis of me staying sober. Especially when someone wakes up in the morning in some stranger's yard and don't remember how they got there.

Also, I know many kids form the Junior High age on up that have had parents that allowed them to drink. They were not the brightest people I have ever met.

But it sound like you are talking about heavy use of primarily harder alchohol. What of just allowing beer and wine under parental supervision?

Also, will a change in the law change any of that? People from screwed up families will tend to act in screwed up ways.

I was talking about beer and wine, mainly beer, as I don't think Bud Light is a whiskey or lager. And I am talking about people from numerous backgrounds, not just one.

If you grow up with people who are moderate drinkers, you will tend to become a moderate drinker yourself. If you grow up with people who don't drink, you will often not drink or, if you do.. will often go overboard (and either learn from it or not). If you grow up with people who drink a lot or who abuse alchohol. (you can drink what I would call "a lot", but still be in control), you will likely do the same.

This is not a matter of socio-economic or even religious upbringing (except for the no-drinking and religion bit). It crosses all boundaries. However, the key is what one is taught by one's elders, not the laws.

[Woodruff]

I suppose I'll specify when I say, "Teenagers are dumbfucks." Teenagers that abuse alcohol in unfavorable circumstances are dumbfucks.

Anyone that abuses alcohol in ANY circumstance is a dumbfuck, as far as I'm concerned. Teenager or not. Unfavorable circumstances or not.

[Woodruff]

Some colleges have tried lowering the age limit on college. The problems are legal. Some military bases have done the same. Again, the problem is legal. However, typically you can get reactions along the lines of "you got a uniform.. that's an ID to me! you are obviously over 21!" However, officially, the law is the law.. everywhere.

The military USED to do this, but they do not any longer. If you're not 21, you're out of luck on a military base. In fact to throw out an example...in Germany, you can legally drink off-base under 21, but not on-base (so you better be taking that taxi back to the base...).

[PLAYER57832]

I suppose I'll specify when I say, "Teenagers are dumbfucks." Teenagers that abuse alcohol in unfavorable circumstances are dumbfucks.

Anyone that abuses alcohol in ANY circumstance is a dumbfuck, as far as I'm concerned. Teenager or not. Unfavorable circumstances or not.

I agree.

There is a greater parallel between earlier use of alchohol and later abuse here in the US. Some suggest that this may be due to changes in developing brain chemistry. The question I have about that is that you don't see the same correllation in Europe (France, in particular).

I think the biggest indicator of how someone will deal with alchohol is how they are taught to deal with it and life in general, not the law.

[Timminz]

People don't tend to develop healthy behaviours regarding things that they are taught to avoid at all costs.

Abstinence-only education leads to ignorance of safe ways to deal with alcohol, sex, drugs, rock and roll, etc...

[PLAYER57832]

rock and roll, etc...

This, is of course, the worst ...