Whooping Cough comming back??????????

[PLAYER57832]

OOPS, double post

[PLAYER57832]

Misleading? No where near as misleading as most stuff you try to post. No, biologic data is rarely perfect and this is no exception. However, that gap of 17% is VERY wide. That gap is far wider than would reasonably be explained by those issues you mentioned.

A 17% gap between children who receive twice as long to receive vaccinations (4 years as opposed to 2 years) doesn't seem that wide.

Portrayal of it as such IS highly misleading.

Gabon... go ask your doctor. If he is a true MD and not some Christian Science practitioner or such, he will tell you that this is QUITE significant.

Also, if you followed the links I gave you, the second article contains a lot more information (I just printed the chart and introduction), BOTH contain references that will allow you to track down the information.

I only see that you put up one link in this thread, and it doesn't appear to have any of the relevant data..

Check the reference section. That is where you will find the studies, etc referenced. (you may have to go through their references to get to the actual study, I am not sure.

Here is the one on community vaccination rates. Note it is a discussion of what levels might be significant and issues with determining that level, but it explains the concepts pretty well and definitely shows why it is important.

Also, your assumption about 4-6 being the age of final vaccines is just wrong. Kids actually get repeated vaccinations all through their life and many are reccomended for adults (varicella was the one I just heard advertised on the radio).

Also, all daycares require proof of vaccination or medical/religious exemption, as do many other types of group programs (everything from vacation Bible school to gymnastics programs here require them).

Maybe if you look at these two quotes of yours together you'll see why I don't think it's so unreasonable to think 4 to 6 years is an unreasonable standard to consider. Standard medical practice or not, necessity is a powerful motivator..

Why are you so up in arms about vaccinations anyhow? If you get your kids vaccinated what's the problem?

Because not all children can be vaccinated. Kids undegoing chemotherapy, kids with kidney and other issues, and kids who have siblings who did experience a reaction are not vaccinated. Even so, vaccination does not always provide 100% immunity. Sometimes it lessons the disease.

Vaccinations are required because they present a public health risk, just like you are required to clean up your trash, to get rid of rats, etc.

Likewise, how are we going to spread disease to Mexico if they're so much more highly vaccinated than we are?

My point was that they are at MORE of a risk from us than we are from them.

AS for other diseases, you would have to look at overall health rates. I don't have data on that.

[Woodruff]

And I'm not angry or mad. Believe me if I was, you would know it.

Jay, I've been here a long time and you are fucking barking mate....

He's well beyond Barking. He's practically at Upminster, and that's the end of the line.

I was thinking "Westminster", but...<grin>

But Westminster is in the middle of the line? That makes no sense... <gets penis out and ties elaborate knots in it>

I'm not sure what you're getting at, but I was getting at the Westminster Kennel Club/Dog Show (because if he's that "barking mad"...).

[the.killing.44]

Barking and Upminster are suburbs of London; Westminster's smack dab in the middle.

[Woodruff]

Misleading? No where near as misleading as most stuff you try to post. No, biologic data is rarely perfect and this is no exception. However, that gap of 17% is VERY wide. That gap is far wider than would reasonably be explained by those issues you mentioned.

A 17% gap between children who receive twice as long to receive vaccinations (4 years as opposed to 2 years) doesn't seem that wide. Portrayal of it as such IS highly misleading.

You've missed some years in there, Gabon. You might want to go back on that.

[King Doctor]

Regardless, "heard immunity" seems rather irrelevant to individuals who are immune to a given disease unless there is a radical mutation.

Well sort of, except that I'm not looking at this from a "am I personally alright, f*ck everyone else" point of view; I'm looking at it from a "what's the most effective and economical disease control policy that is possible without breaching people's human rights" point of view.

As such, Herd Immunity is massively relevant to me. Granted, to you it's not such a big deal as your worldview doesn't extend past your own nose. But that's just because we see the world from different perspectives.

Here's a question, do you think people should get vaccinations, or do you think people should be forced to get vaccinations?

Option one, obviously.

Although, as I can see where you're clumsily headed with this, that doesn't mean that I'd just leave it up to them to seek them out; I'd support them by having effective mass immunisation programs available for them. Simply letting the lazy and ignorant fester isn't part of an effective disease control policy y'see.

[b.k. barunt]

When they fluoridized the water they compromized our precious bodily fluids. Who gives a flying f*ck about vaccinations once their precious bodily fluids are compromized?


Honibaz

[GabonX]

Misleading? No where near as misleading as most stuff you try to post. No, biologic data is rarely perfect and this is no exception. However, that gap of 17% is VERY wide. That gap is far wider than would reasonably be explained by those issues you mentioned.

A 17% gap between children who receive twice as long to receive vaccinations (4 years as opposed to 2 years) doesn't seem that wide. Portrayal of it as such IS highly misleading.

You've missed some years in there, Gabon. You might want to go back on that.

I suppose that the scale allows for an additional year, but the point is that they're comparing apples to oranges.

By the logic presented in the article (none) we could assert that Americans are better educated than Europeans because our 2nd graders are more highly educated than their preschoolers.. Likewise we could state the opposite, that Europeans are better educated than Americans because older children in Europe are more educated than younger children in the US.

There's no rhyme or reason to this. The only way we would be able to draw any kind of meaningful conclusion is if the articles compared children of the same age, or of the standard age when children are immunized in both countries. In the US, that tends to extend till when parents are obligated to have their children immunized for school even if doctors recommend it happen before.. That generally happens around the age of 4...

Comparing 4 year olds to 4 year olds would be rational. Comparing 2 year olds to 4 year olds is not.

Misleading? No where near as misleading as most stuff you try to post. No, biologic data is rarely perfect and this is no exception. However, that gap of 17% is VERY wide. That gap is far wider than would reasonably be explained by those issues you mentioned.

A 17% gap between children who receive twice as long to receive vaccinations (4 years as opposed to 2 years) doesn't seem that wide.

Portrayal of it as such IS highly misleading.

Gabon... go ask your doctor. If he is a true MD and not some Christian Science practitioner or such, he will tell you that this is QUITE significant.

[Woodruff]

Misleading? No where near as misleading as most stuff you try to post. No, biologic data is rarely perfect and this is no exception. However, that gap of 17% is VERY wide. That gap is far wider than would reasonably be explained by those issues you mentioned.

A 17% gap between children who receive twice as long to receive vaccinations (4 years as opposed to 2 years) doesn't seem that wide. Portrayal of it as such IS highly misleading.

You've missed some years in there, Gabon. You might want to go back on that.

I suppose that the scale allows for an additional year, but the point is that they're comparing apples to oranges.

It was ages 1-4 compared to age 2. Yes, that's still apples to oranges, but it does make a significant difference regarding your complaint about the ages.

[jonesthecurl]

When they fluoridized the water they compromized our precious bodily fluids. Who gives a flying f*ck about vaccinations once their precious bodily fluids are compromized?


Honibaz

Thanks for that Jack. Now get your finger off that button.

[AAFitz]

Yet another reason we need to stop the flow of illegal immigrants into this country. Not that they are responsible for the resurgence of the WC, but many diseases could easily cross the border with them.

Luckilly someone had the courage to say it. As you say, they are not responsible for the resurgence of WC....but they could be responsible for more diseases!!!

By closing the border, there is no way those diseases would migrate in fact!

Further, and most disturbingly, they might be witches or warlords!

They might even be shapeshifters that are planning to take over our country!

Im with Jay, lets block the borders from everyone and eliminate all of these imagined threats.

[b.k. barunt]

Mexicans piss in the Corona.


Honibaz

[jonesthecurl]

Mexicans piss in the Corona.


Honibaz

What difference does that make?

[jay_a2j]

Yet another reason we need to stop the flow of illegal immigrants into this country. Not that they are responsible for the resurgence of the WC, but many diseases could easily cross the border with them.

Luckilly someone had the courage to say it. As you say, they are not responsible for the resurgence of WC....but they could be responsible for more diseases!!!

By closing the border, there is no way those diseases would migrate in fact!

Further, and most disturbingly, they might be witches or warlords!

They might even be shapeshifters that are planning to take over our country!

Im with Jay, lets block the borders from everyone and eliminate all of these imagined threats.

What do you "let all the illegals in" crowd not understand about laws? I am an American, I can't go to Canada, Russia, Japan or any other nation on earth and just decide to set up camp. Why? I'd be breaking immigration laws in those countries and be deported. So, WHY should the USA be required to allow anybody who wants to to come here??????????????

[Woodruff]

Yet another reason we need to stop the flow of illegal immigrants into this country. Not that they are responsible for the resurgence of the WC, but many diseases could easily cross the border with them.

Luckilly someone had the courage to say it. As you say, they are not responsible for the resurgence of WC....but they could be responsible for more diseases!!!

By closing the border, there is no way those diseases would migrate in fact!

Further, and most disturbingly, they might be witches or warlords!

They might even be shapeshifters that are planning to take over our country!

Im with Jay, lets block the borders from everyone and eliminate all of these imagined threats.

What do you "let all the illegals in" crowd not understand about laws? I am an American, I can't go to Canada, Russia, Japan or any other nation on earth and just decide to set up camp. Why? I'd be breaking immigration laws in those countries and be deported. So, WHY should the USA be required to allow anybody who wants to to come here??????????????

Because, as we all know, if someone else is doing something, we've got to mimic it...did I get that right?

[b.k. barunt]

Mexicans piss in the Corona.


Honibaz

What difference does that make?

Not a whole lot as far as taste goes . . .


Honibaz

[Snorri1234]

The only valid point I see is that it could prevent a disease from adapting, but aside from that there's nothing. I can't find a source to support that claim but it makes enough sense...

Regardless, "heard immunity" seems rather irrelevant to individuals who are immune to a given disease unless there is a radical mutation.

Here's a question, do you think people should get vaccinations, or do you think people should be forced to get vaccinations?

Vaccinations are not 100% effective. When you are vaccinated there is not a guarantee you won't catch the disease. The likelihood of catching a disease depends on a lot of factors. When you're confronted with sick people on a day to day basis you can still get sick despite your vaccination.


So herd immunity is important for everyone.

[AAFitz]

Yet another reason we need to stop the flow of illegal immigrants into this country. Not that they are responsible for the resurgence of the WC, but many diseases could easily cross the border with them.

Luckilly someone had the courage to say it. As you say, they are not responsible for the resurgence of WC....but they could be responsible for more diseases!!!

By closing the border, there is no way those diseases would migrate in fact!

Further, and most disturbingly, they might be witches or warlords!

They might even be shapeshifters that are planning to take over our country!

Im with Jay, lets block the borders from everyone and eliminate all of these imagined threats.

What do you "let all the illegals in" crowd not understand about laws? I am an American, I can't go to Canada, Russia, Japan or any other nation on earth and just decide to set up camp. Why? I'd be breaking immigration laws in those countries and be deported. So, WHY should the USA be required to allow anybody who wants to to come here??????????????

I am hardly commenting on whether we should open the borders here or not, though the fact that we are shy 700 million workers compared to China makes me think we might just need some help if we ever hope to manufacture something here and actually be able to sell it somewhere outside our borders....

Im merely showing that you making up a reason you discount in your own post is....hmmm...well, I guess for you its just typical.

The point is that real reasons may be more meaningful than made up ones, but then, given the number of things you believe in that are made up....I suppose its again....typical.

[b.k. barunt]

Just out of curiosity fitz, how many illegal Mexicans have you employed over the years - just a rough guess will do.


Honibaz

[jay_a2j]

Yet another reason we need to stop the flow of illegal immigrants into this country. Not that they are responsible for the resurgence of the WC, but many diseases could easily cross the border with them.

Luckilly someone had the courage to say it. As you say, they are not responsible for the resurgence of WC....but they could be responsible for more diseases!!!

By closing the border, there is no way those diseases would migrate in fact!

Further, and most disturbingly, they might be witches or warlords!

They might even be shapeshifters that are planning to take over our country!

Im with Jay, lets block the borders from everyone and eliminate all of these imagined threats.

What do you "let all the illegals in" crowd not understand about laws? I am an American, I can't go to Canada, Russia, Japan or any other nation on earth and just decide to set up camp. Why? I'd be breaking immigration laws in those countries and be deported. So, WHY should the USA be required to allow anybody who wants to to come here??????????????

I am hardly commenting on whether we should open the borders here or not, though the fact that we are shy 700 million workers compared to China makes me think we might just need some help if we ever hope to manufacture something here and actually be able to sell it somewhere outside our borders....

What the hell are you smoking???????? Have you seen the unemployment rate???????? Do you realize all the jobs are moving overseas????????? You......FAIL.

[PLAYER57832]

What the hell are you smoking???????? Have you seen the unemployment rate???????? Do you realize all the jobs are moving overseas????????? You......FAIL.

And illegal aliens are to blame for this, how?

[Woodruff]

What the hell are you smoking???????? Have you seen the unemployment rate???????? Do you realize all the jobs are moving overseas????????? You......FAIL.

And illegal aliens are to blame for this, how?

I think he's saying "our jobs are leaving the country and you want to bring more WORKERS in?" He's not saying it's at all the illegal's fault (I don't think, anyway...but I try not to think like Jay so I could be wrong)...but them coming in with jobs going out...that's not a good proposition.

[jonesthecurl]

Especially when they're nothing to do with whooping cough.
(another debate over).

[jay_a2j]

What the hell are you smoking???????? Have you seen the unemployment rate???????? Do you realize all the jobs are moving overseas????????? You......FAIL.

And illegal aliens are to blame for this, how?

Try and follow will you? AAfits said, "though the fact that we are shy 700 million workers compared to China "


We are SHY 700 million workers!!!!!!! Oh really? We are sooooo short workers that our unemployment rate is 0%!!!!!!!!! / sarcasm

I call to ask a question about my PC and get some guy in India!!!!!!!!! (Odd, it's an American computer)



I think AAfits pulls "facts" out of his bum.

[PLAYER57832]

What the hell are you smoking???????? Have you seen the unemployment rate???????? Do you realize all the jobs are moving overseas????????? You......FAIL.

And illegal aliens are to blame for this, how?

Try and follow will you? AAfits said, "though the fact that we are shy 700 million workers compared to China "


We are SHY 700 million workers!!!!!!! Oh really? We are sooooo short workers that our unemployment rate is 0%!!!!!!!!! / sarcasm

I call to ask a question about my PC and get some guy in India!!!!!!!!! (Odd, it's an American computer)



I think AAfits pulls "facts" out of his bum.

jay... employers go to India because they want to hire cheaper workers. Illegal aliens also provide cheap labor, so ironically, encourage companies to stay here.

Now, I am NOT saying illegal aliens are the way to go. I say that we need to change the laws, how we deal with these issues. We need to work harder to discourage companies from migrating or outsourcing AND we need to tackle the real issues that bring illegals here, not throw out all these idiotic accusations, be it "illegals are all kidnappers and terrorists" or "Illegals bring us diseases".

The problem of illegal aliens is none of that. The problem is that they allow employers to pay less and offer poorer working conditions than citizens will tolerate (sometimes conditions that are illegal as well).

Since the problem is driven by employment, that needs to be the focus of any solution. We need to penalize empoloyers who hire illegal workers through hefty fines, shutdowns, etc instead of the "slap on the hand" they now get. I do think we ALSO need to encourage more citizen workers to take some of those "less-than-desirable" jobs. However, that does mean ensuring that the conditions are at least reasonable from the start.

If someone refuses to pick tomatoes or hoe beets becuase its "too hard" or "too menial", the too bad.. they don't need to get welfare, either. However, if they would be working 60 hours and STILL not making enough for a place to live, food, basic clothing and medical care, then the grower needs to pay more. In agriculture, you also have issues of exposure to chemicals (chemicals that, ironically enough, compete with workers).

Not-so-ironically, many of these standards that make things safer for workers ALSO mean greater environmental protection and greater safety for us all. Spraying roundup on beet fields not only puts migrant workers out of work, but also pollutes streams AND, ironically enough, causes weeds to build up resistance to those chemicals, making them ineffective in the long run.

So, jay, now you see why the conservatives want what THEY want, and it definitely is NOT about reducing crime, border security, health, or any other red herring they try to trot out.