It makes a strong case for psychiatric medicine being unscientific, and often harmful. It also makes a few tough statements about depression and whether it should be seen as an illness in a lot of the cases where it's diagnosed.
I've known people helped by psychiatry, and others who really felt harmed by it, so yeah it really seems like a mixed bag from my experience.
After reading the first paragraphs I have to suspect of the credentials of the journalist.
Been there myself. The Depressive-Anxiety disorder is real, and meds can help a lot. It's utterly reductionist that the person in case is only lacking serotonin. No doubt one can get out of there without meds, with a lot of support, changing habits, way of thinking, finding meaning (however hard this is in our times).
Medication really works (if it's the right one), and there's new medication on the way that works in 2 days. Its associated with the old antidepressants because they go for the same mechanism in the brain that makes serotonin and other neurotransmisors dissapear.
No doubt what most people learn when they first hear about the condition (yes, the brain gets sick as any other organ in the body) is that serotonin is lacking, but this is only an easy way to put it. There's more than that. And I'm assuming this journalist knows only this.
Antidepressants should only be taken by a period of time, after that, you are on your own, you and the new habits of thought and changes in your behavior and possibly having chosen a different path of life. We don't have to do what we don't want to do. That's why the meds should be accompanied by psicotheraphy.
And yes, there will be a lot of authors on this topic, everyone with their own conclusions, no matter how smart or informed they are because it has become a mass media topic on America. Remember that they write because the have a word processor and want to make big bucks.
Really, it pisses me off. Pharmaceuticals invest a lot in research because they want to earn more than that, and that works. Or tell me, has Castro and his famous doctors invented a cure for depression?
This problem goes beyond our times, it was less publicized because it was seen badly by the members of the family and because it happened less, mostly because in the past people had all sorts of meanings and we have lost all our values (except of course greed). It was called melancholy I believe.
You can also be rehabilitated from depression with a more drastic method: electroshock, nowadays I believe it's done under general anesthesia, and in 5 sessions you are back.
Finally, If you can change the way you think, they way things affect you, change your perjudicial habits, and set a worthy (to you) goal for your life; basically control the stream of thought (body and mind are but one and the same thing) you can lift yourself without medication, but I wouldn't recommend this because when one is depressed, all this seems impossible.
Psychiatry is a soft science in the extreme. I know from stories and experience that there's a huge amount of confirmation bias and that diagnoses can be made that are exaggerated or inaccurate.
natty_dread wrote:Do ponies have sex?
Army of GOD wrote:the term heterosexual is offensive. I prefer to be called "normal"
Chauvanism for ages meant women who were not 100% happy at the idea of doing nothing more than cleaning diapers and listening to whatever their husband wants (OK, a bit of an exaggeration, but not entirely) were considered "depressed" or to have other mental illnesses.
Similarly, even today, many people who just don't want to live like everyone else, but who may be perfectly harmless, are considered "mentally ill".
AND... there is the whole American tendency to want a drug to "just fix" everything (note extreme overuse of antibiotics). At the same time...
I have a child who requires daily medication. I have other relatives who do as well. I myself, by contrast, faught off a diagnosis of Depression because I knew there were other things wrong with me. I wanted to deal with the roots, not the cause. One doctor told me that "sometimes you need medication to get back on keel... so you can deal with the root causes". That might well be true if someone is truly unable to cope (and I was pretty close not too long ago, but did find answers).
AND... many, many people who call themselves "psychiatrists" really don't have enough training. So.. a mixed bag, yes.
john9blue wrote:Psychiatry is a soft science in the extreme. I know from stories and experience that there's a huge amount of confirmation bias and that diagnoses can be made that are exaggerated or inaccurate.
You are maybe talking of one of the youngest sciences, psycology, one of the youngest son of philosophy that has emancipated itself. I've HEARD that in the US there's a fashion for using antidepressants for everything, that (and I'm no doctor or anything related) might be wrong. A person that just lost a job may need only a little regulation on the GABA receptor or trasmitters (remember that I'm no doctor). But there are families where the "depression gene" runs.
Yes I admit that it is kind of "unscientific" that antidepressants work in 3,4,5 or 6 weeks and sometimes doesn't work at all, sometimes they give you back your energy but your mood stays the same, and viceversa.
There's a MRI machine in Canada that works full time analyzing the brain of depressed patients, and from what I've read they have concluded that the MAO-A protein is highly elevated during depression. MAO blockers where the first kind of antidepressants, but fell in favor of the newer SSRIs due to the amount of side effects they carried.
There are new antidepressants that work on this, with fewer side effects and that is being proven right now.
For those who have never been depressed, it's impossible (in my view) to really understand what it feels like. So for me and for those that have experienced it and may read this, be a little cautios when saying it's "exagerated" or not so serious to be treated with medication. You might even convince a young man there's no need to go to the doctor and commit suicide during a crisis.
nietzsche wrote:
For those who have never been depressed, it's impossible (in my view) to really understand what it feels like. So for me and for those that have experienced it and may read this, be a little cautios when saying it's "exagerated" or not so serious to be treated with medication. You might even convince a young man there's no need to go to the doctor and commit suicide during a crisis.
I think Brook Shield put it well...
Someone who has been through [ ...] probably has a bit more basis upon which to judge than someone who has only read about it in whatever popular books.
Psychiatrists go thru medical school, residence, specialization in psychiatry and most of them take courses on psycotherapy too.
And Mexico is also becoming dependant of pills to, when we used to have a lot of herbal remedies. Somewhere mothers stop learning those remedies from grandmas and the continuos adds for a quick fix in form of a pill took their mind.
But actually, I'm seeing that little by little western medicine is adopting (not after rigorous studies and fight) some of the eastern medicine's principles. Yoga and the like are not a fashion, they are here to stay and we will see a reconciliation of both schools in one. Preventing and Curing.
Some of the recommendations on mild depression are st. john's worth, a herbal remedy, aromatherapy (lavanda, savy clergy (i believe that's the name, to lazy to google it), a diet low on caffeine and sugars and starch, full on fish, turkey, whole grains etc. Also, aerobic excercise to produce endorphins which in turn will help you sleep better and recover, but also to go to a park and breath fresh air and lay on the grass.
P.S. Forgive my spelling, in this and other posts.
Huh, well I've been mildly depressed over a year now, and I've gotten over it, but it required a slight shift in my thinking. Whether that's the same degree of depression as you're talking about, I don't know. Also my mom has depression and it's sometimes pretty obvious, even though she takes meds and I don't.
Here's where I'm coming from: as a kid I made friends but was introverted, enjoyed math and science but didn't like school. Also fought with my parents a lot (see above... mild manic depression or something). So my parents jumped to the "logical" conclusion that I had a disorder. I'd visit "doctors" on and off, and the diagnoses ran from autism to aspergers (mild autism) to ADD, ADHD, OCD... I pretty much got them all. Took meds for a few months until it was obvious they didn't work, then took new meds a while later and those didn't work either. Around high school my parents finally "got it"... I was just who I am and happened to be completely different from them... they still think I'm "different" though... which I can't exactly deny lol. Needless to say, I have very little faith in doctors to say "this kid is normal" and not make money off the kid's gullible parents.
On second thought, it might just be child psychiatry... they might have listened to me if I had been an adult...
natty_dread wrote:Do ponies have sex?
Army of GOD wrote:the term heterosexual is offensive. I prefer to be called "normal"
Just kidding. Let me preface this by saying I took Psychology in college and I hated it with a passion... I also did pretty poorly (C+). A few obersvations from the article:
- Some of the article seems to posit that these "diseases" (including shyness and heartburn) are illnesses made up (or exacerbated) by pharmaceutical companies so they make more money. While I don't necessarily disagree with this, it is useful to point out that if I am shy or have heartburn and I want to solve my problem, perhaps a pill is the best way for me and perhaps I wouldn't mind shelling out some money to be "cured."
- Interesting on the anti-depressant drug trials. Basically, the one scientist argues that there is no difference between placebos and the actual meds except that the actual meds have side effects that sugar pills don't. I've never thought about this, but it's pretty interesting. "Hey, I have diaherrea... the antidepressant must be working."
- The article talks about whether depression is a disease or a symptom of a disease. In other words, is the person's brain normal and he/she is depressed or is the person's brain abnormal? So, I'll take it a step further than the article does. If the depression is a symptom of a disease, perhaps medication is warranted. If depression is the disease, perhaps medication is not warranted; rather, maybe a lifestyle change is warranted.
I don't think I am depressed (but who knows... I have trouble sleeping sometimes, I tend towards laziness when I'm not working, but I'm a pretty happy guy). However, I know people who have problems with depression. Generally, just doing stuff (i.e. having a purpose apart from sitting on the couch in from of the TV) has helped all of these people. Maybe this has something to do with human nature - we are not supposed to be a sedentary race sitting in a cubicle or on an assembly line or in front of the TV. We're supposed to do stuff, like hunt, fish, gather, and f*ck. If we don't do these types of activities, maybe we're all a little depressed. Who knows?
thegreekdog wrote:However, I know people who have problems with depression. Generally, just doing stuff (i.e. having a purpose apart from sitting on the couch in from of the TV) has helped all of these people. Maybe this has something to do with human nature - we are not supposed to be a sedentary race sitting in a cubicle or on an assembly line or in front of the TV. We're supposed to do stuff, like hunt, fish, gather, and f*ck. If we don't do these types of activities, maybe we're all a little depressed. Who knows?
PLAYER57832 wrote:many, many people who call themselves "psychiatrists" really don't have enough training.
No one can just call themselves psychiatrists, anymore than they can call themselves surgeons. It's a medical specialization. All psychiatrists are fully trained doctors.
john9blue wrote:Huh, well I've been mildly depressed over a year now, and I've gotten over it, but it required a slight shift in my thinking. Whether that's the same degree of depression as you're talking about, I don't know. Also my mom has depression and it's sometimes pretty obvious, even though she takes meds and I don't.
Here's where I'm coming from: as a kid I made friends but was introverted, enjoyed math and science but didn't like school. Also fought with my parents a lot (see above... mild manic depression or something). So my parents jumped to the "logical" conclusion that I had a disorder. I'd visit "doctors" on and off, and the diagnoses ran from autism to aspergers (mild autism) to ADD, ADHD, OCD... I pretty much got them all. Took meds for a few months until it was obvious they didn't work, then took new meds a while later and those didn't work either. Around high school my parents finally "got it"... I was just who I am and happened to be completely different from them... they still think I'm "different" though... which I can't exactly deny lol. Needless to say, I have very little faith in doctors to say "this kid is normal" and not make money off the kid's gullible parents.
On second thought, it might just be child psychiatry... they might have listened to me if I had been an adult...
It's been always curious to me that children are treated with all sort of meds in the US. For ADD, autism, you name it. I will jump to a very unscientific conclusion without any hard evidence: In the US, children are educated different than in Mexico, they are talked to, explained whys, and they form some sort of independence and do many things as they like. They form kind of a independent thought (except for the ads of mcdonalds). In Mexico children are still told what to do, and if they don't they are in trouble. That makes for a more "normal average behavior" and they're just kids, you know. Although the fashion of taking a kid with "ADD" to a doctor has began here too.
Maybe teachers don't want to deal with those kids. When I was a kid, if you misbehave you'd go to the corner, facing the wall with donkey ears. Everybody made fun of you and you tried no to misbehave again. Who knows what's right, but I don't believe we should be taking pills for everything, perhaps our body is trying to tell us something and we want the Aldous Huxley utopia.
PLAYER57832 wrote:many, many people who call themselves "psychiatrists" really don't have enough training.
No one can just call themselves psychiatrists, anymore than they can call themselves surgeons. It's a medical specialization. All psychiatrists are fully trained doctors.
I am a surgeon.
AAHHH... WHO ARE YOU?!?!?! LEAVE ME ALONE! YOU CAN'T ARREST ME FOR TYPING THAT! AH! HELP! HELP! I'M BEING REPRESSED!
PLAYER57832 wrote:many, many people who call themselves "psychiatrists" really don't have enough training.
No one can just call themselves psychiatrists, anymore than they can call themselves surgeons. It's a medical specialization. All psychiatrists are fully trained doctors.
I am a surgeon.
AAHHH... WHO ARE YOU?!?!?! LEAVE ME ALONE! YOU CAN'T ARREST ME FOR TYPING THAT! AH! HELP! HELP! I'M BEING REPRESSED!
ok, i'm telling to the secret service of the doctors association
john9blue wrote:Huh, well I've been mildly depressed over a year now, and I've gotten over it, but it required a slight shift in my thinking. Whether that's the same degree of depression as you're talking about, I don't know. Also my mom has depression and it's sometimes pretty obvious, even though she takes meds and I don't.
Here's where I'm coming from: as a kid I made friends but was introverted, enjoyed math and science but didn't like school. Also fought with my parents a lot (see above... mild manic depression or something). So my parents jumped to the "logical" conclusion that I had a disorder. I'd visit "doctors" on and off, and the diagnoses ran from autism to aspergers (mild autism) to ADD, ADHD, OCD... I pretty much got them all. Took meds for a few months until it was obvious they didn't work, then took new meds a while later and those didn't work either. Around high school my parents finally "got it"... I was just who I am and happened to be completely different from them... they still think I'm "different" though... which I can't exactly deny lol. Needless to say, I have very little faith in doctors to say "this kid is normal" and not make money off the kid's gullible parents.
On second thought, it might just be child psychiatry... they might have listened to me if I had been an adult...
I'm not going to even try to say I understand your experience- I think depression is far too different for everyone. Dick Cavett still has the definitive, and deeply moving take on it for me:
But there's another quote by him, that I'd like to paraphrase. If you have full depression, even if someone set a cure on a table in front of you, you wouldn't reach across to get it.
That's stuck with me for a while about whether we're really honest when we say we're depressed, or if it's possible to be mildly depressed in a sense that should be dealt with medically.
I won't quote them all. I absolutely agree that we in the west need to pay far more attention to diet, excercise and just general prevention. Going back and looking at "what Grandma did" is also pretty valuable at times.
Pharmaceutical companies have already sent out people to study many indigenous cultures, hoping to find a new miracle cure. (once found, it usually simpler to replicate it). The sad part is that all this has not necessarily led to dissemination of those medicines, for a lot of reasons. I used to buy toothpast with Sanguinaria, for example. Worked WONDERS. Now, I cannot find it anywhere. Apparently, it was not profitable enough. Or, if I want to be really cynacal, I would say it worked TOO well.. and would mean fewer people to the Dentist (suspect there were supply issues, actually). Companies that have patents have no obligation at all to use them.. even when the patent was given to them and came from fully government-funded research.
I also absolutely share John9's concerns about overdiagnosis of ADHD. I still think that if I could find a better school for my son, medicaiton might not be necessary. However, there just aren't other options here. (homeschooling would be an even worse fit, for him).
Bottom line ... Americans, in general take way too much of all medicines and not near enoug on prevention. Our research is heavy into cures and very dismal regarding prevention. That is the heavy down side of market-driven medicine. (a factor that can change, but only by tweaking the system somewhat).
Still, Psychiatric medications have helped a lot of people. Better things are being found. But, I suspect there will always be more variability in the cure effects of psychiatric drugs than other drugs because the brain is just far more complex and sensitive.
PLAYER57832 wrote:many, many people who call themselves "psychiatrists" really don't have enough training.
No one can just call themselves psychiatrists, anymore than they can call themselves surgeons. It's a medical specialization. All psychiatrists are fully trained doctors.
BOTTOM LINE: In some ways the times we live in (In The U.S.) are worse than the dark ages. Yeah we have better technology and better medacine but all things considered the times we live in right now are in some ways worse than the dark ages. Half the country is insane to some degree and this most certainly includes the heirarchy or upper echelon of the social order. This is a topic that would require numerous paragraphs and essays to put in its proper perspective. The reign of Terror by the secret society of dipshits morons and jagoffs must come to a halt and then what's left of humanity here in the US can heal, pick up the pieces and rebuild.
Secret Society Of Dipshit Morons and Jagoffs are primarily (not exclusively) children and grandchildren of Jews and a large amount of converts (To Judaism). My Grandfather was Jewish but I don't include myself in this group I'm describing because I"m not engaged in anyway shape or form in some jackass, retarded, war against humanity.
Yoda Skywalker wrote:BOTTOM LINE: In some ways the times we live in (In The U.S.) are worse than the dark ages. Yeah we have better technology and better medacine but all things considered the times we live in right now are in some ways worse than the dark ages. Half the country is insane to some degree and this most certainly includes the heirarchy or upper echelon of the social order. This is a topic that would require numerous paragraphs and essays to put in its proper perspective. The reign of Terror by the secret society of dipshits morons and jagoffs must come to a halt and then what's left of humanity here in the US can heal, pick up the pieces and rebuild.
Secret Society Of Dipshit Morons and Jagoffs are primarily (not exclusively) children and grandchildren of Jews and a large amount of converts (To Judaism). My Grandfather was Jewish but I don't include myself in this group I'm describing because I"m not engaged in anyway shape or form in some jackass, retarded, war against humanity.
Spazz Arcane wrote:If birds could swim and fish could fly I would awaken in the morning to the sturgeons cry. If fish could fly and birds could swim I'd still use worms to fish for them.
This guy has like 13 pages of wall posts he wrote to himself.
Also because it's so important that everyone understand this as best as possible, you have no idea or concept or have any idea what the f*ck I'm talking about when I say damage done. It's impossible because if you did you wouldn't have allowed it to happen. You probably get somewhere between 33 to 50% of what I mean when I say damage done but that's a far cry from 90 to 100.
Yoda Skywalker wrote:You really don't have any idea how much jews disgust me at this point. You really are out of touch entirely with my attitude and true feelings towards jews at this point, mentally and emotionally. You don't have any concept what's so ever with the fucking damage fucking done and what all it means or have it in it's propper context at all. If and when that first jewish bitch showed up as instucted no ga damn tricks loopholes or jew bullshit, one of the first things I was going to tell her was that our starting point here is the fact that she has/had a 1400 SAT score, frizzy hair and is cute. I can still think some a little bit or tolerate somewhat the pictures or work of a jew that has or had big league talent of some sort (or half jew) but...
Yoda Skywalker wrote:Is my check going to show up today? f*ck no. Should it? f*ck yeah. I've said this before, I'll say it again: this is gone so far past the point of obsurdity, my situation and circumstances for more reasons than one that there are no analagies to describe it there are no words to put it into it's proper perspective, retarded, assenine, jackass, falls dramitcally short of putting it into it's proper perspective.
Yoda Skywalker wrote:I've been thinking alot about 01 to 02 lately. It's a little hazy but right out of the blocks beginning in Aug Sep?, I got alot of things right. I got a couple things wrong but.....
Yoda Skywalker wrote:The only explanation I can give at this point to these last year and a half is God. When it's all said and done God wants the credit he deserves for the light flashing, the therapy, and straigtening out of shit that I'll do once all my wounds are mostly healed. I've stated this before but it's worth reiterating, you owe quite a bit to God already at this point. It was God that instilled the drive in me, it's God that keeps me focussed most of the time despite a whole hell of alot of bullshit, etc. (Oh, and there will always be Atheists and Agnostics after my entire story comes to light. That's the way God wants it).
Spazz Arcane wrote:If birds could swim and fish could fly I would awaken in the morning to the sturgeons cry. If fish could fly and birds could swim I'd still use worms to fish for them.
LOL I didn't write them to myself if at the very least you're reading them. Also, I recommend starting from the beginning and paying close attention to the one that sais, "leading authority in the world in psychology, only one in the world who can fix the economy, and only one in the world that can spearhead a film renaissance." and finally, I've been deleting other people's comments on my wall as they're posted. I may or may not stop doing that. Not sure at this point.
