I'm sick and tired of unnecessarily complicated maps

[MrBenn]

I'm sick and tired of unnecessarily complicated maps.

Why do people feel the need to create the most complicated images possible, that induce headache and brain fatigue? I've got no problem with complex maps, but there is a growing trend of unnecessary confusion being added to maps in development, and I really wish it would stop.

There, I've said it.

[/rant]

[jrh_cardinal]

[/rant]

lol, nice addition

Anyway, I don't really participate in mapmaking, so I can't say that I have these problems, but mapmakers, listen to your leader!!

[natty dread]

Aww... I hope this doesn't refer to me? I've always tried to keep my maps on the relatively simple side. Lunar wars is probably the most complicated of my current projects and most of it "complicatedness" seems to be perceived by a few individuals who cannot grasp the idea of multiple styles of visual representation of territory connections in the same map...

Anyway, I think with the growing number of maps in CC, and with the CC admin requiring "uniqueness" of our maps - it's getting harder and harder to make unique maps without extending the gameplay into unknown territory. And let's not forget there are those who enjoy these complicated maps, they wouldn't have any support otherwise.

But generally, I kinda agree, making the gameplay as complicated as possible shouldn't be the sole way to set the map apart from all others. Coming up with a fresh theme or at least a fresh view / perspective on an old theme should be sufficient.

[Teflon Kris]

Hmmm - perhaps we need some diversity training?

[Industrial Helix]

I kind of like complicated maps but what I hate is unclear maps.

[The Bison King]

I got to say I'm with Mr. Benn on this one. Complicated maps are fine but we have enough of them coming out right now. I'm a bit of a purist, myself. When I play classic risk, my imagination is all I need to see myself burning villages, and committing mass acts genocide. To me, the maps themselves have enough uniqueness to force me to come up with new strategies and approaches.

[yeti_c]

I kind of like complicated maps but what I hate is unclear maps.

This one.

C.

[chipv]

Interesting , I have been meaning to post something like this for a while.

I love complicated maps but as has been said, not ones that require BOB to play them.
BOB is an awesome tool, but I do question maps that have made it through the Foundry that simply are unplayable without it.

I'm sure people could come up with a list of these, but there you go, I've said it.

[sjnap]

I half agree with this topic.
I dont like these maps either. I avoid these maps as much as possible.
For me those maps are not interesting because they are getting more crazier.
I like more the old style of maps. Its nice for the players who like it. We all have our own choice if we play them or not.

But I think; As long as these complicated maps resist you will never see the REAL great players on top of the scoreboard.
Of course there are already some great players on top of the scoreboard but i have seen to many players who dont belong there normally.
I think almost everyone is able to use these complicated maps to go to the top of the scoreboard.
For example by taking advantage of the players who never played these maps.
Maybe there should be an other pointsystem for these maps or these maps may only played by players who played after some total of games ? I dont know. Just my thoughts.
Of course not only these complicated maps are the reason for this scoreboard.
There are more reasons. Also the advantage of the fast players.

I just hope to see in future the real great players on top. Now it is to mixed up to me.
Then finally great players like pris, fruitcake, seul, agonzos, ballenus and many many more would have a fair chance to get on top.

CC; I think its about time to find a system for showing us the real great players of cc

[porkenbeans]

I half agree with this topic.
I dont like these maps either. I avoid these maps as much as possible.
For me those maps are not interesting because they are getting more crazier.
I like more the old style of maps. Its nice for the players who like it. We all have our own choice if we play them or not.

But I think; As long as these complicated maps resist you will never see the REAL great players on top of the scoreboard.
Of course there are already some great players on top of the scoreboard but i have seen to many players who dont belong there normally.
I think almost everyone is able to use these complicated maps to go to the top of the scoreboard.
For example by taking advantage of the players who never played these maps.
Maybe there should be an other pointsystem for these maps or these maps may only played by players who played after some total of games ? I dont know. Just my thoughts.
Of course not only these complicated maps are the reason for this scoreboard.
There are more reasons. Also the advantage of the fast players.

I just hope to see in future the real great players on top. Now it is to mixed up to me.
Then finally great players like pris, fruitcake, seul, agonzos, ballenus and many many more would have a fair chance to get on top.

CC; I think its about time to find a system for showing us the real great players of cc

I have been calling for this for the past 3 years.

[yeti_c]

I have been calling for this for the past 3 years.

Really? : Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 10:06 pm

C.

[army of nobunaga]

Then why do you guys let stuff get through that takes a M.S in logistics to play?

Ill make a list, im not really afraid of people getting mad at me.

And honestly... I see one based upon an obscure sport that 5% or less of the worlds population understand that is about to pass.

I went on a rant the other night... I think my point was/is - -- simple + unique = just friggin fun ...

To play a map, people dont want to have to figure out shield patterns and matching combinations of resources and read friggin heiroglyphics to play, at least I dont. There was some sort of map that got to beta the other day.... well two .. 1) Monsters, If I didnt have BOB I would not know how to even start! AND WITH bob Im still pretty much floundering.
the other is dawn of ages i think... for the love of christ... Im not learning a new language to play a map.

Ill be the asshole in the melting pot I guess... because some of these things need to have fair criticism before they get up the ladder and passed.

[porkenbeans]

I have been calling for this for the past 3 years.

Really? : Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 10:06 pm

C.

You are quit right. I should have said 2 1/2 years.

[natty dread]

Personally I have no problems playing DOA and Monsters withot BOB. I quite enjoy them and IMO they're both great maps. Monsters isn't even that complicated. DOA is but it's not impossible... To be honest I have more trouble playing Waterloo than I have with these maps.

[army of nobunaga]

waterloo is another good example... I like the map for the theme. But after something like 2 years here playing it off and on, and with a waterloo tutor (dragon dor) I still need bob to play it.


And as far as DOA and Monsters... we both concluded you are smarter natty

[MarshalNey]

Maybe I should start another thread instead of posting here, one that presents the other side of the argument... but I'd hate to polarize something that really could be taken care of with a bit of moderation.

First, I would not have wanted to get premium for this site if all of the maps were variations of the Classic-style gameplay. They get old. I love options. I like playing Classic. I like playing Waterloo. I like'em all. For me, this site would only be half as good if you took out the "complicated" half of the maps.

Second, when Mr. Benn says 'unnecessarily' complicated, I think that's an important qualifier. He may not (if I'm guessing correctly) be blasting complexity so much as unjustified complexity- that is, gameplay elements that don't support the core concept but are just added for the sake of 'coolness'.

Third, I fail to sympathize with the notion that options create negative circumstances. If you don't like complicated maps, don't play them. And leave the people who do enjoy them alone. Also vice versa- if you don't like "boring" classic gameplay, avoid those maps and don't harass the 'purists'.

This last argument gets over-wrought by some folks who play in challenges and random settings and complain that they end up on maps that they don't know. Well, nuts is all I have to say. I believe that the above contention still applies, because it is again a circumstance that one chooses- and if one's notion of 'fun' on this site is so specific that it must involve both randomness and a certain kind of map, I would contend that this idea would exclude more people than it would include.

In conclusion, I'd like to say that if anyone sees a map that they think needs simplifying, post a supportive critique. And try to understand that some mapmakers just like complexity or simplicity, rather than trying to aggressively push one's own perspective on the matter. It's OK to voice one's opinion; it's quite another matter to demand that they conform and tout one's years of experience in making maps that are, ultimately, exactly the kind of maps that tailor to one's own taste only. I'm saying this last part because some individuals are posting with an extremely arrogant and unnecessarily demeaning attitude that only encourages a mapmaker's defensive tendencies.

[The Bison King]

I agree with the notion the problem is simply avoided by playing on the maps you want to play on. However in the foundry I feel like there is a certain pressure to do things a certain way, and that some idea's are forced to become something they weren't really meant to be, like Beef Cut's! That's right I'm bringing up Beef Cut's. It's simple. It looks fun. It's friggin hilarious. It is what it is you know, and I know it
not what the foundry goes for but there are people who want to play it. I want to play it! I just don't see why we can't send it through, I mean it's pretty much done, sure the numbers could use some minor tweaking but other than that I think anything you could change would just be back peddling.

I know I took that a weird direction and we're getting farther and farther from the original post but that's what I wanted to say.

[fumandomuerte]

Personally I have no problems playing DOA and Monsters withot BOB. I quite enjoy them and IMO they're both great maps. Monsters isn't even that complicated. DOA is but it's not impossible... To be honest I have more trouble playing Waterloo than I have with these maps.

Agree. Monsters could be hard to play speedy, but it's just a matter of time to get used to it

[Rocketry]

I kind of like complicated maps but what I hate is unclear maps.

Same, exactly. Complicated maps are a lot more interesting but the complications need to be displayed properly!

Rocket.

[MarshalNey]

I agree with the notion the problem is simply avoided by playing on the maps you want to play on. However in the foundry I feel like there is a certain pressure to do things a certain way, and that some idea's are forced to become something they weren't really meant to be, like Beef Cut's! That's right I'm bringing up Beef Cut's. It's simple. It looks fun. It's friggin hilarious. It is what it is you know, and I know it
not what the foundry goes for but there are people who want to play it. I want to play it!

I understand what you're saying about pressure. I think most mapmakers need to stay honest to their concept (and have a good idea what that is!) in order to have any joy in the act. Otherwise, the benefits of making the map won't be enough to balance out all of the work and crap they'll have to deal with, and eventually the map will end up in the junk bin.

I just don't see why we can't send it through, I mean it's pretty much done, sure the numbers could use some minor tweaking but other than that I think anything you could change would just be back peddling...

There are some things about the Foundry that resemble a blanket policy rather than individual case-by-case treatment. For instance, any map is pretty much required to undergo a very lengthy treatment of months of inspection no matter what. I'm not sure how I feel about the reasoning (I see pros and cons), but that's the Conquer Club Foundry SOP- their site, their rules; and that's the way it should be.

But, ultimately, there is still a great deal of the personal touch in the way Foundry is run, and as long as the human element remains I'm happy.

[mattattam]

I do like more complex maps but know people don't want to spend a half hour decoding a map when they play it. When these more complex maps go through the Foundry process if the wording and graphics of these maps/map keys were more simple and straightforward this would help them avoid becoming "unnecessarily complicated".