Terrorist Watch List Problems

[Woodruff]

What I don't understand is...why are the agents there at the airport using just the tiniest bit of common sense in recognizing that these very young children are not very likely to be terrorists, despite their names matching the list? I mean, really...

http://news.travel.aol.com/2010/04/30/a ... rorists%2F

[army of nobunaga]

answer: child bombers and being under fire ALL the time for profiling


But in a way I agree with you.

[jefjef]

Children have never been used in terrorist attacks.

Oh wait. Yes they have.

[army of nobunaga]

well and another answer is this : These security guys are not exactly rocket scientists. They dont have BS in criminal justice. They see a kid, his name flags on the screen... you want to give that goober the authority to say "Heck hes a kid, let him through" ? I dunno man. When you mess with kids, im with you there and its sad that travel has come to this. But on the other hand, how do you propose to fix this?

[jefjef]

According to the Coalition to Stop the Use of Child Soldiers "2004 Global Report on the Use of Child Soldiers", there were at least nine documented suicide attacks involving Palestinian minors between October 2000 and March 2004. In 2004, the Coalition to Stop the Use of Child Soldiers reported that "there was no evidence of systematic recruitment of children by Palestinian armed groups," also noting that this remains a small fraction of the problem in other conflict zones such as Africa, where there are an estimated 20,000 children involved in active combat roles in the Sudan alone.

Do not forget that children were used in WWII Russia vs the Germans. Korean conflict. Vietnam vs USA. Vs Israel for years. Africa. In Iraq.

[army of nobunaga]

Jef his link had a picture of a little pale white american boyscout. .... I see his point. But to not search this kid when his name popps would have pretty dire consequences if/when that little pale white boyscout kid did indeed hide a graphite shank in his shoe for an adult on the plane.

[jefjef]

Jef his link had a picture of a little pale white american boyscout. .... I see his point. But to not search this kid when his name popps would have pretty dire consequences if/when that little pale white boyscout kid did indeed hide a graphite shank in his shoe for an adult on the plane.

Well the name was on a list for a reason. Due to lineage I'm sure. We do have domestic terrorist and those associated with or suspected associations with known/suspected terrorists. Heck his troop leader could have been on a list.

Did you notice yesterday how if the gov decides that you have assisted a terrorist in any way then they can strip your citizenship. No trial. No nothing.

Of course it's up to them to decide who is a terrorist. Like those patriots they are fisting right now. NRA next?

[army of nobunaga]

Jef his link had a picture of a little pale white american boyscout. .... I see his point. But to not search this kid when his name popps would have pretty dire consequences if/when that little pale white boyscout kid did indeed hide a graphite shank in his shoe for an adult on the plane.

Well the name was on a list for a reason. Due to lineage I'm sure. We do have domestic terrorist and those associated or with suspected associations with known/suspected terrorists. Heck his troop leader could have been on a list.

Did you notice yesterday how if the gov decides that you have assisted a terrorist in any way then they can strip your citizenship. No trial. No nothing.

Of course it's up to them to decide who is a terrorist. Like those militia members they are fisting right now. NRA next?

Yes I commented on that.. I use to collect intel man. I know why they strip citizenship or want to. The 4th admendment is a bugger to get around. and the 4th amendment is adhered to religiously even with contract companys. Trust me, its not exactly a good thing they can take away your citizenship, we were catching bad guys just fine before that.


Back to the thread, i never disagreed wit hyou ,however much id like to, just saying the little pale white boyscout is gonna get some ppl riled up because he was searched, and there is no easy solution.

[Woodruff]

Children have never been used in terrorist attacks.
Oh wait. Yes they have.

I understand that children have been used in terrorist attacks. In almost all cases, those children are DEAD.

However, these children are being searched because of their names...do you really believe these children are such well-known terrorists that they'd be on the Terrorist Watch List?

[army of nobunaga]

Children have never been used in terrorist attacks.
Oh wait. Yes they have.

I understand that children have been used in terrorist attacks. In almost all cases, those children are DEAD.

However, these children are being searched because of their names...do you really believe these children are such well-known terrorists that they'd be on the Terrorist Watch List?

the real watchlist would friggin surprise you how large and accurate it is.

[jefjef]

Children have never been used in terrorist attacks.
Oh wait. Yes they have.

I understand that children have been used in terrorist attacks. In almost all cases, those children are DEAD.

However, these children are being searched because of their names...do you really believe these children are such well-known terrorists that they'd be on the Terrorist Watch List?

Associations. Those that have access to them and their belongings and has influences over them.

[army of nobunaga]

Children have never been used in terrorist attacks.
Oh wait. Yes they have.

I understand that children have been used in terrorist attacks. In almost all cases, those children are DEAD.

However, these children are being searched because of their names...do you really believe these children are such well-known terrorists that they'd be on the Terrorist Watch List?

Associations. Those that have access to them and their belongings and has influences over them.

like the cubmaster putting a carbon shank in the shoe of a kid. We monitor so much that ppl dont know. That name was on the list for a legitimate reason. Associations is how modern terrorist work now.


He is an asshole but hes right.

[Woodruff]

Children have never been used in terrorist attacks.
Oh wait. Yes they have.

I understand that children have been used in terrorist attacks. In almost all cases, those children are DEAD.

However, these children are being searched because of their names...do you really believe these children are such well-known terrorists that they'd be on the Terrorist Watch List?

the real watchlist would friggin surprise you how large and accurate it is.

I'm somewhat familiar with it, having also been involved with intelligence systems in the military (though primarily the Combat Intelligence System, which is more combat-based).

[Woodruff]

Children have never been used in terrorist attacks.
Oh wait. Yes they have.

I understand that children have been used in terrorist attacks. In almost all cases, those children are DEAD.

However, these children are being searched because of their names...do you really believe these children are such well-known terrorists that they'd be on the Terrorist Watch List?

Associations. Those that have access to them and their belongings and has influences over them.

like the cubmaster putting a carbon shank in the shoe of a kid. We monitor so much that ppl dont know. That name was on the list for a legitimate reason. Associations is how modern terrorist work now.

I'm confused...did you read the article? Where are the associations that establish the legitimate reasons for these particular families?

[army of nobunaga]

Children have never been used in terrorist attacks.
Oh wait. Yes they have.

I understand that children have been used in terrorist attacks. In almost all cases, those children are DEAD.

However, these children are being searched because of their names...do you really believe these children are such well-known terrorists that they'd be on the Terrorist Watch List?

Associations. Those that have access to them and their belongings and has influences over them.

like the cubmaster putting a carbon shank in the shoe of a kid. We monitor so much that ppl dont know. That name was on the list for a legitimate reason. Associations is how modern terrorist work now.

I'm confused...did you read the article? Where are the associations that establish the legitimate reasons for these particular families?

Not confused, I dont rely on friggin mass media for facts. I personally know how names get on all the various lists... Im limited on how much I can tell, If you did military intel you HAVE to have some sort of inkling on what im talking about, although I dont know when you were in so I dunno. I do know the name popped up... any name that popps up is there for one hellova good reason.

And on the same note, I agree with you that this friggin sucks... but until terrorists do one of the following: 1) stop using kids 2)die 3) forget about the US 4)forget all notions of airplane hijacking .... This is GOING to happen.. unless you have a solution. I dont.

[Woodruff]

I understand that children have been used in terrorist attacks. In almost all cases, those children are DEAD.

However, these children are being searched because of their names...do you really believe these children are such well-known terrorists that they'd be on the Terrorist Watch List?

Associations. Those that have access to them and their belongings and has influences over them.

like the cubmaster putting a carbon shank in the shoe of a kid. We monitor so much that ppl dont know. That name was on the list for a legitimate reason. Associations is how modern terrorist work now.

I'm confused...did you read the article? Where are the associations that establish the legitimate reasons for these particular families?

Not confused, I dont rely on friggin mass media for facts. I personally know how names get on all the various lists... Im limited on how much I can tell, If you did military intel you HAVE to have some sort of inkling on what im talking about, although I dont know when you were in so I dunno. I do know the name popped up... any name that popps up is there for one hellova good reason.

And on the same note, I agree with you that this friggin sucks... but until terrorists do one of the following: 1) stop using kids 2)die 3) forget about the US 4)forget all notions of airplane hijacking .... This is GOING to happen.. unless you have a solution. I dont.

I retired in 2007, but I was out of the intelligence arena around 2002 or so. I do somewhat know what you're referring to, but I'm definitely not as convinced as you are that any name on the list is there for a hellova good reason. I've seen far too many simple mistakes in large databases to believe that, never mind the situations we've had where our government has kept individuals in confinement in places like Guantanamo Bay who were later determined to have been innocent.

[army of nobunaga]

The people innocent in Guantanamo bay was at about a 5% rate. Ill find the article for you. And I trusted it. So basically the miitary and government guessed right in that instance. But thats for another thread.

Ill maintain that its better for the HS educated security guys working for 10 bucks an hour to stop everyone that shows up on their computer screen flagged than for them to use point of moment judgement. Even if it pisses off the white american boyscouts white american mom.

I dont offer any improvments to the system man... Just pointing out why the white people got mad and made a stink and how its really unavoidable .


On a side note not a lot changed in your mos since 2002. a couple of large things.. navy right? get on my msn sometimes and we can trade notes.

[Juan_Bottom]

God Damn it.

The Terrorist Watch List (the one the DHS uses) has over 1 million names on it. I have no idea how many are American citizens.... I'm guessing nearly all of them? Yet this figure is an estimate by the ACLU since there is enough secrecy around this bullsh!t.
Anyway, the list was still growing in '08 by around 20,000 names a month. I haven't followed new revelations about the list in earnest since then, since so much crap has happened. Clearly I remember Airline employees were required to report a certain number of 'suspicious persons' a month, and those names eventually would wind up on the list. Mostly the employees just chose names at random.

So this list is not accurate at all. This list is separate from the actual list of people known to be associated with terrorism. People on the Terrorist Watch List can still buy guns and everything...

Almost forgot!:
I believe in '09 they added a large series of forms you could file to have your name eventually removed from the list, but last I heard they had yet to clear anyone.

The people innocent in Guantanamo bay was at about a 5% rate.

I think that's wrong. More like: "The people who have any useful information number around 5% of the prisoners." We've had some pretty high ranking military officers say they've got no one of importance there, and no useful information has ever come from there. Some of these people were only vaguely associated with terrorist groups, but regional war lords turned them in for the bounties the US pays. That place holds people who weren't active combatants, it holds people who were fleeing.
The real terrorists are likely taken to secret camps run by farmed-out satellite countries where we torture the hell out of them. You may remember me mentioning that Uzbekistan had been (not still?) caught red-handed boiling people alive for the CIA. Hard to find that on CNN.com though.

I dont offer any improvments to the system man... Just pointing out why the white people got mad and made a stink and how its really unavoidable .

Scrap the system. It doesn't work. It was probably all political to begin with.

Not confused, I dont rely on friggin mass media for facts.

Oh hey! Hear hear!

[PLAYER57832]

I retired in 2007, but I was out of the intelligence arena around 2002 or so. I do somewhat know what you're referring to, but I'm definitely not as convinced as you are that any name on the list is there for a hellova good reason. I've seen far too many simple mistakes in large databases to believe that, never mind the situations we've had where our government has kept individuals in confinement in places like Guantanamo Bay who were later determined to have been innocent.

The problem with saying "innocent until guilty unless its a terrorist" is that pretty soon, all kinds of people wind up being called "terrorists".

[Woodruff]

The people innocent in Guantanamo bay was at about a 5% rate.

Sure, that number sounds about right to me.

Ill maintain that its better for the HS educated security guys working for 10 bucks an hour to stop everyone that shows up on their computer screen flagged than for them to use point of moment judgement.

In general, I would agree with this. But there are, in my view, circumstances that are so unbelievably clear that at the least they should call over a supervisor to make a determination (presuming the supervisor can).

On a side note not a lot changed in your mos since 2002. a couple of large things.. navy right? get on my msn sometimes and we can trade notes.

Air Force.

[Woodruff]

I retired in 2007, but I was out of the intelligence arena around 2002 or so. I do somewhat know what you're referring to, but I'm definitely not as convinced as you are that any name on the list is there for a hellova good reason. I've seen far too many simple mistakes in large databases to believe that, never mind the situations we've had where our government has kept individuals in confinement in places like Guantanamo Bay who were later determined to have been innocent.

The problem with saying "innocent until guilty unless its a terrorist" is that pretty soon, all kinds of people wind up being called "terrorists".

I agree. That being said, I'm ok with very temporarily holding someone who is suspected of being a terrorist while information is being gathered, though I do not at all like them being held without having access to a lawyer and such, American citizen or not.

[PLAYER57832]

Ill maintain that its better for the HS educated security guys working for 10 bucks an hour to stop everyone that shows up on their computer screen flagged than for them to use point of moment judgement.

In general, I would agree with this. But there are, in my view, circumstances that are so unbelievably clear that at the least they should call over a supervisor to make a determination (presuming the supervisor can).

And there ought to be better ways to get people off the list when it errs.

In truth, no list is really going to protect us, though. The really bad guys will just find innocents to do their work, just like mules are used to carry drugs or anything else.

[PLAYER57832]

I retired in 2007, but I was out of the intelligence arena around 2002 or so. I do somewhat know what you're referring to, but I'm definitely not as convinced as you are that any name on the list is there for a hellova good reason. I've seen far too many simple mistakes in large databases to believe that, never mind the situations we've had where our government has kept individuals in confinement in places like Guantanamo Bay who were later determined to have been innocent.

The problem with saying "innocent until guilty unless its a terrorist" is that pretty soon, all kinds of people wind up being called "terrorists".

I agree. That being said, I'm ok with very temporarily holding someone who is suspected of being a terrorist while information is being gathered, though I do not at all like them being held without having access to a lawyer and such, American citizen or not.

Yes, that was my point. I am not sure that many of these terrorists are really any worse than many just plain criminals here. We have the rule of law to protect us all. Violate it and it is we who wind up paying the highest price. Then we don't need the criminals to destroy us, we have done it ourselves.

[army of nobunaga]

Ill maintain that its better for the HS educated security guys working for 10 bucks an hour to stop everyone that shows up on their computer screen flagged than for them to use point of moment judgement.

In general, I would agree with this. But there are, in my view, circumstances that are so unbelievably clear that at the least they should call over a supervisor to make a determination (presuming the supervisor can).

And there ought to be better ways to get people off the list when it errs.

In truth, no list is really going to protect us, though. The really bad guys will just find innocents to do their work, just like mules are used to carry drugs or anything else.

not correct.

lists HAVE protected the US for some odd 6 years...
It works.

In those 6 years I have read about countless terrorist plans foiled. It works.
May not be fair, but it works. Get over it.

[army of nobunaga]

Ill maintain that its better for the HS educated security guys working for 10 bucks an hour to stop everyone that shows up on their computer screen flagged than for them to use point of moment judgement.

In general, I would agree with this. But there are, in my view, circumstances that are so unbelievably clear that at the least they should call over a supervisor to make a determination (presuming the supervisor can).

And there ought to be better ways to get people off the list when it errs.

In truth, no list is really going to protect us, though. The really bad guys will just find innocents to do their work, just like mules are used to carry drugs or anything else.

you are a layman... we KNOW who their innocents are... they make the list.

you guys just dont know.