Iliad wrote:tkr4lf wrote:If he was innocent, and that's a big if. He was convicted by a jury of his peers, so what's the big deal. Besides, even if he happens to be innocent, it's still not a reason to abolish the death penalty.
The alternative to a death penalty is life in prison. One could argue that life in prison is a far harsher sentence than the death penalty. When you take into account the living conditions in most prisons, the crap you must endure and witness on a daily basis, I'd rather be put to death than spend the rest of my life in prison. That's my opinion, yes, and likely won't be everyone's. Still, Texas is known for the death penalty and killing people who kill other people. It's part of the culture down here. Do innocent people occasionally get put to death as well? Yes. Do innocent people occasionally get sentenced to prison? Yes. But for the most part, I think the majority of people in prison and on death row belong there.
So you come down fairly hard that it is better to convict and execute the innocent rather than let the guilty go. I really don't think that it's "our culture" is any kind of morally acceptable answer and I fail to see why you care so little that the state executes the innocent. Though I'll also bet that you're a small government type as well.
And have you never considered that exonerated prisoners can be let go, it's a bit harder to undo a lethal injection.
I fail to see what my views on the proper size of government would have to do with my views on the death penalty.
I will agree that prisoners can be exonerated, while those put to death have no such luxury. And in the unfortunate cases where an innocent person is wrongly accused, it would be nice if they could be exonerated. However, I still think that the vast majority of people on death row belong there. If having the death penalty, a mechanism by which the state can put to death those individuals who by their deeds have been deemed unworthy of life, means that occasionally an innocent person gets put to death, it's still worth it, to me at least. Keep in mind I don't speak for all Texans, or anybody other than myself. So please be somewhat reasonable, unlike some people, and don't blame all Texans for my (admittably warped by the circumstances of my life) views.
Also, just because you don't see culture as a morally acceptable answer doesn't mean that somebody else doesn't. Remember that morals are quite subjective. Everbody has different morals. What is morally acceptable to one person may be evil personified to another. Take abortion, or prostitution, or the death penalty.
Iliad wrote:tkr4lf wrote:
So, if we're going to abolish the death penalty just because occasionally an innocent person gets put to death, we might as well abolish prison as well, because the same thing happens. Hell, let's just let all the murderers and rapists run free and not punish them at all just to be absolutely sure that no innocent people might ever be suspected for the crimes.
Here's a novel idea: justice. We punish and attempt to rehabilitate those who we convict and where there is reasonable doubt about the person's guilt, we do not convict them.
Hahaha...rehabilitate. Is that what you think happens in jail and prison? Prison is a school for criminals. Sure, some (read: a small minority) of people might "find" Jesus or Allah and truly repent and change their ways, but the majority are made into even bigger criminals. They learn bigger and better tricks of the trade and develop a mentality of survival that doesn't translate well into society. When they get out, they are worse off than before. For one, they are likely much more violent (assuming they weren't very violent to begin with) and not at all afraid to use that violence to get what they want (something that is regularly done in prison). Also, they get out and have a hell of a time finding employment, which fuels the cycle and drives them to commit more crime in order to even survive. And this is all assuming that the inmate wasn't already a gang member when they went in. If this is the case, then absolutely nothing changes, except they've had lots of time to beef up and practice their fighting skills.
I agree with you that when there is reasonable doubt that we do not convict, that is a part of our justice system. In this particular case, the guy was convicted by a jury of his peers. Could he have been wrongly convicted? Sure. Was he? Who knows. Does it ultimately matter? Not in the slightest.
Iliad wrote:tkr4lf wrote:
Besides, they're just people. Oh well if a few people die. People die every day. Does it ultimately matter if it's by natural causes, a car accident, a random gunshot, an IED, a prison yard shanking or lethal injection? No, it doesn't. Death is a part of life. Everyone dies. What's the big deal that the latest person to be executed by the state might be innocent? Most people who die are relatively innocent. It's just life. Deal with it.
Sorry, but I'm pretty callous to death here lately. After a bunch of people I've known being murdered here lately, it seems not to bother me much anymore. Random, senseless death is part of this world. The sooner that's accepted the better. Then we can stop worrying about stupid crap like whether the latest inmate being executed might be innocent.
If death is so irrelevant, why do we punish murderers in the first place? You do realise that your argument excuses and justifies any murder? Why would we punish the act, if the victim was going to die anyway?
But the state really should be somewhat more just and compassionate than your average serial killer. The fact that you see absolutely nothing wrong with the state executing the innocent fucking scares me.
No, my argument does not excuse murder. My argument is that it is ultimately pointless whether people live or die. Even though I believe that, I still think it is wrong to rape and murder people. When an individual rapes and murders someone, they are not only causing enormous suffering to the victim, but to the victim's family and friends. When the state puts somebody to death, it is because they did something equally heinous to an individual. These people do not deserve to live if they are going to go around raping and killing people.
Do you see the difference? One is an individual taking it into his hands to end somebody's life for no real reason other than perhaps personal gratification or maybe in extreme cases survival. The other is the people that make up society coming together and stating that this behavior is unnacceptable and will be punished by death. The society is then putting those people to death. I agree that occasionally an innocent person may be wrongly put to death by this process, but for the most part, the people put to death are the people who should be put to death.
Per my argument, none of this matters in the grand scheme of things. But if we're all going to live in a society, then we should punish those who would commit such heinous acts against other people. And the best punishment is death. That way we know they will never again harm another person. The same cannot be said for putting them in prison.
As for you saying that I see nothing wrong with the state executing innocent people, that is untrue. It is lamentable that innocent people do occasionally get executed by accident, but if that is what it takes to ensure that the guilty are executed as well, then it is something that I can live with. Kinda like the whole "you can't make an omelete without breaking some eggs" thing.
As far as my views scaring you, oh well. I've long since quit giving a flying f*ck what anybody thinks about me. And it's not like you have to worry anyway, I'm in no position of power. These are just the veiws of a (somewhat) warped individual that doesn't really value human life or humans in general. I have some rather unorthodox views concerning death, humanity, things of that nature. It's ok, I know not everybody thinks like I do. What can I say, I'm a nihilist and a misanthrope. But I still think murderers and rapists should be put to death, because the suffering that their acts produce has an enormous impact on the lives of the people around the victims.
BigBallinStalin wrote:Given that severe punishment like the death penalty has a high uncertainty of actually being carried out plus the delay (to be killed), does a death penalty significantly reduce people's willingness to commit egregious crimes like first-degree murder and what not?
Absolutely not. But does the threat of prison reduce people's willingness to commit said crimes either? Absolutely not.
