Classic Cities : Buenos Aires [20/2] Vacation please.

[koontz1973]

Map Name:Buenos Aires
Mapmaker(s):koontz1973
Number of Territories:Around 44
Special Features:Not on this one.
What Makes This Map Worthy of Being Made:Classic city and pretty girls.

Map Image:
[bigimg]http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/4122/57915552.jpg[/bigimg]
[spoiler=PREVIOUS VERSION]Large map.
http://i1050.photobucket.com/albums/s410/koontz1973/BA.jpg
http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/5113/20482733.jpg
http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/7308/10968974.jpg
http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/1104/28954308.jpg
http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/5619/44666547.jpg
http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/538/79213774.jpg
http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/300/18790694.jpg[/spoiler]
[spoiler=gameplay notes]Starts - all sizes of games - 2 territs.
All other territs a 1 neutral.
To try and make this one slightly different, and take it away from the normal conquer maps we have, I intend to make every territory a starting position and hand only two out to every player. This will mean that in any game, you can start close to or far from an opponent (great for foggy games). Only one continent, the whole map. For every 3 territs, a +1. This should get players expanding. All territs not deployed in the positions will start as a one neutral.

EDIT:Changed the GP starts from one territ to two. This will eliminate round one knock outs.[/spoiler]
Comments?

[natty dread]

What's with the 4-way borders? You should know by now...

[koontz1973]

What's with the 4-way borders? You should know by now...

Bugger. Will get a park square there. Any other comments apart from that?

[sannemanrobinson]

Good start. Something specific for the city would be nice. Now it could be almost any city.
Landmarks with touristic routes...
Monopoly of drug trades..
Gated communities with neutral guards.. Night clubs... Economic drivers.. etc..

[koontz1973]

Good start. Something specific for the city would be nice. Now it could be almost any city.
Landmarks with touristic routes...
Monopoly of drug trades..
Gated communities with neutral guards.. Night clubs... Economic drivers.. etc..

You are right that it can be any city around the world but adding landmarks that no one has heard of would not help that. I also does not fit the current style of the map. The image on the left will have to suffice for now. The GP is different enough to warrant no GP gimmicks.

Version 2 has sorted out the 2 four way borders (these are not there in RL but on the map with the territ lines, they could cause confusion).
Different park set up - in the same style.
[bigimg]http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/538/79213774.jpg[/bigimg]

[cairnswk]

koontz1973, this is the map of BA i was going to do ages ago in my World Cities 12 Pack when size restrictions were still in place...

Can i suggest rather than the cathedral you've got, since Argentina is reknowned for it, perhaps a couple doing el tango, or even an image of the wide boulevarde in BA.
Also, you could work in some freeways as impassables. Just suggestions.
I like the colours

[koontz1973]

Cairnswk, can do and if you do not mind, I will copy your idea of using 4 smaller pictures in the corners.

[koontz1973]

New dancers. Went with a drawing as this seems to fit the paper better. The map itslef I am thinking of lowering the opacity of again desaturating some. Ideas?
[bigimg]http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/5619/44666547.jpg[/bigimg]

[cairnswk]

Cairnswk, can do and if you do not mind, I will copy your idea of using 4 smaller pictures in the corners.

Please do if it works for you...

I like the top image, not sure what the bottom one is, or is that an extension of the top one?
Anyway early days yet. You may totally change your mind.

[koontz1973]

Changed the bottom image for you cairnswk and added the one on the right. I know the bottom left might be seen as risqué so if anyone objects, I will take it of. But one of the things that Argentina is famous for is beautiful ladies as well as the tango.
Also removed the auto deploy and changed the GP notes to show that everyone gets 2 territs to stop R! knock outs.
[bigimg]http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/1104/28954308.jpg[/bigimg]

[cairnswk]

Changed the bottom image for you cairnswk and added the one on the right. I know the bottom left might be seen as risqué so if anyone objects, I will take it of. But one of the things that Argentina is famous for is beautiful ladies as well as the tango.
Also removed the auto deploy and changed the GP notes to show that everyone gets 2 territs to stop R! knock outs.
[bigimg]http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/1104/28954308.jpg[/bigimg]

Agreed about the ladies, i'll be interested to see where this leads.

[koontz1973]

Brought out the playing area.
Made the lady on the right larger to fill the top space.
[bigimg]http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/5108/55798170.jpg[/bigimg]

[Nesoi]

Without being rude, but there are so, so many maps on this website - what new appealing dimension does this map add? As a new player, I can safely say that I was overwhelmed with the sheer number of maps on this website and to me, this looks like more of the same!

Sorry!!


Nesoi

[natty dread]

Ok, I have to say, I think you're going to need a better bonus structure here...

[koontz1973]

Without being rude, but there are so, so many maps on this website - what new appealing dimension does this map add? As a new player, I can safely say that I was overwhelmed with the sheer number of maps on this website and to me, this looks like more of the same!

Sorry!!


Nesoi

Sorry you feel that way but it is early days and things will change.

Ok, I have to say, I think you're going to need a better bonus structure here...

And once again, a natty_dread put down with nothing constructive.

[natty dread]

Do you want me to tell you things that make you happy, or do you want me to be honest?

Sorry, but it's just how it is. The way your map is currently, I don't see much strategy in it - the only bonus is the region bonus, 1 for 3 regions, and that's what you get on most maps anyway. So... what's the catch here?

[koontz1973]

Do you want me to tell you things that make you happy, or do you want me to be honest?

This (below) tells me nothing. There is such a thing as commenting on a subject but laying out a few ideas as well. It is still early days in the map and trying to do something different again but to say what you did is pointless. If you want to comment on the map, then do so, but make your comment mean something or else it is pointless. Nesio who posted before you is not a map maker and new to coming to the foundry so his comment is justified and it still makes a point. He wants to see something different instead of the normal city maps.

Ok, I have to say, I think you're going to need a better bonus structure here...

New image and GP style. Now before any of you jump down my throat, I know the 4 chosen are captured/dead, but I did not want to upset anyone with using real names of escaped criminals. I PMed nobodies with this image a couple of days ago to see if I had crossed the line but not heard anything. So you can all judge.
[bigimg]http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/7308/10968974.jpg[/bigimg]

[natty dread]

This (below) tells me nothing.

I'm sorry, but it's entirely legitimate to leave a comment that only points out a flaw in the map - not every comment has to be a deep analysis of the map structure.

In this case, your bonus structure was indeed needing attention - in fact you didn't really have a real bonus structure. So I pointed this out. However, the map is still early in development, and it is indeed your map, so I didn't - and don't - want to tell you what kind of map you should make, or what kind of gameplay you should design - that's up to you. I have enough work coming up with my own gameplay ideas, lol.


As for your current gameplay, it has the same problem TBK:s Heartland map had - you have a bonus for each War Criminal, and then you have a +1 for 3 in an area bonus, so how do you intend the map to start? If you start with a random drop, it leads to uneven drops, some people dropping higher initial bonuses than others, thanks to the +1/3 in an area bonus.

Also, for future reference: you should avoid referring to bonus areas as "regions", since that's what territories are called in the game, so it can easily lead to confusion.

[koontz1973]

In the first post GP notes, I state that each player will drop only 2 territs. All other territs apart from the WC start as one neutral. All territs will hen be programmed as starting positions with a max of 2 given out. so it is like a conquest style map without the set starting positions. The divisions of the bonus areas can be made smaller/larger/more/less.

As for the comment, it is OK not to go into detail but as you keep saying, you are an experienced map maker and therefore ideas should come more naturally to you. To post as little as you did without a comment on what you would of liked to see is a wasted post. It is that I do not mind the comments, but the little you give gets annoying. If you had said something like...

Ok, I have to say, I think you're going to need a better bonus structure here...take a look at Antarctica again.

This alone is little, but it gives a general idea of what you, as a map maker and player might like to see.

[natty dread]

as you keep saying, you are an experienced map maker

I don't really remember when I had called myself an "experienced mapmaker", but ok.

To post as little as you did without a comment on what you would of liked to see is a wasted post.

Well, that's unfortunate you feel that way. The way I see it, feedback is only wasted when you don't take anything from it.

In the first post GP notes, I state that each player will drop only 2 territs. All other territs apart from the WC start as one neutral. All territs will hen be programmed as starting positions with a max of 2 given out. so it is like a conquest style map without the set starting positions. The divisions of the bonus areas can be made smaller/larger/more/less.

But this is also problematic. If you have 2 random locations for each player, it will also create unbalanced drops - what if player 1 and player 2 drop right next to each other, and player 1 goes first - he'll have a chance to eliminate player 2 right away. Or, player 1 starts in one corner of the map, and players 2-4 start on the other side, player 1 now has one corner of the map to hisself while others have to battle each other for land.

[koontz1973]

If the idea of a 2 territ random drop does not work, and I take your point on it about the larger games, then with 46 territs as normal play, a combination of 23 sets of 2 positions can be found with one being given out. That way, if any two that are given in a 1v1 game, only one territ can be adjacent, and this itself would only occur in every 1 in 22 games. A decent spacing can be done for each two. But if two does not work (and I started with one but the drops allowed for your first round KO) a third territ can be added. If we went with the third territ, then a set of 15 positions of 3 can be worked out easily. This would introduce the extra neutral onto the board.

[koontz1973]

New direction of a sorts.
This will need a lot of balancing so help in that is greatly needed.
[bigimg]http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/5113/20482733.jpg[/bigimg]

[natty dread]

Personally, I don't think the nazi capture thing really works for this map. It seems to pasted-on, like it was added as an afterthought. There's nothing else on the map that really connects the nazi theme to it.

If you really want to pursue it, I think you should make the map fully about the capture of those nazis. Research the history, find out how it all went down and then find a way to tell the story in map form. Or, you can just make this map about Buenos Aires and find something more suitable that represents Buenos Aires.

[koontz1973]

Buenos Aires is well know for German war criminals (Josef Mengele, Adolf Eichmann) and there capture. I did not put these on as they are real cases and thought that bringing in real life cases might be to close to reality for CC. This is the reason for the well known names and ones that either died or where captured. As for a last minute tack on, it was my original idea but again dismissed it for the above reason. After your comment about GP needing a revision, I thought about bringing it back in. It does need revision, I have never really liked this style of map to play on but I like to try new things. Germans stay, lets revise the map.

[sannemanrobinson]

I like the idea. But without an historic background of these specific persons it seems a bit random. Maybe first names from Adolf Eichmann and Josef Mengele could be less direct and still have an historic relation.

Why are the starting positions marked with a church? I do not see any reason to make only the winning objective neutral.