He wants to control the weather too?

[GabonX]

The president's new science adviser said Wednesday that global warming is so dire, the Obama administration is discussing radical technologies to cool Earth's air.
John Holdren told The Associated Press in his first interview since being confirmed last month that the idea of geoengineering the climate is being discussed. One such extreme option includes shooting pollution particles into the upper atmosphere to reflect the sun's rays. Holdren said such an experimental measure would only be used as a last resort.

"It's got to be looked at," he said. "We don't have the luxury of taking any approach off the table."

Holdren outlined several "tipping points" involving global warming that could be fast approaching. Once such milestones are reached, such as complete loss of summer sea ice in the Arctic, it increases chances of "really intolerable consequences," he said.

Twice in a half-hour interview, Holdren compared global warming to being "in a car with bad brakes driving toward a cliff in the fog."

At first, Holdren characterized the potential need to technologically tinker with the climate as just his personal view. However, he went on to say he has raised it in administration discussions.

Holdren, a 65-year-old physicist, is far from alone in taking geoengineering more seriously. The National Academy of Science is making climate tinkering the subject of its first workshop in its new multidiscipline climate challenges program. The British parliament has also discussed the idea.

The American Meteorological Society is crafting a policy statement on geoengineering that says "it is prudent to consider geoengineering's potential, to understand its limits and to avoid rash deployment."

Last week, Princeton scientist Robert Socolow told the National Academy that geoengineering should be an available option in case climate worsens dramatically.

But Holdren noted that shooting particles into the air—making an artificial volcano as one Nobel laureate has suggested—could have grave side effects and would not completely solve all the problems from soaring greenhouse gas emissions. So such actions could not be taken lightly, he said.

Still, "we might get desperate enough to want to use it," he added.

Another geoengineering option he mentioned was the use of so-called artificial trees to suck carbon dioxide—the chief human-caused greenhouse gas—out of the air and store it. At first that seemed prohibitively expensive, but a re-examination of the approach shows it might be less costly, he said.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id ... _article=1

[MeDeFe]

Yes, geoengineering is being looked into and has been discussed for several years already, not in the USA maybe, but this side of the ocean. The problem is that any side-effects are very hard to predict and the cure could turn out to be worse than the disease. A recent experiment aimed at encouraging growth of a certain plankton that could bind large amounts of CO2 even after death didn't work as planned because the plankton grows too slowly and the fertilizer was eaten by less stable and hardy plankton with a shorter life cycle.

Now please shut up.

[Nobunaga]

... Global Warming isn't about Global Warming, it's about taxes and control. Cap n' Trade didn't make it through the budget, so now we see this. No big surprise.

... Your lifestyle, with such affluence and consumption, is such that you are destroying the planet. Therefore, a bit of sufferring on your part is required. As a bonus you get to feel good about yourself for helping to save the planet while thumbing your nose at those who see you for the played fool you are.

... (not addressed to any particular person). There are Global Warming threads galore here already, let this one die.

...

[GabonX]

Rude

Didn't they engineer clouds in China recently?

[ManBungalow]

Didn't they engineer clouds in China recently?

I believe that was to force rain over the area, rinsing the solid pollution off of the buildings to give the area around the olympic stadium a cleaner look

[PLAYER57832]

... Global Warming isn't about Global Warming, it's about taxes and control. Cap n' Trade didn't make it through the budget, so now we see this. No big surprise.

... Your lifestyle, with such affluence and consumption, is such that you are destroying the planet. Therefore, a bit of sufferring on your part is required. As a bonus you get to feel good about yourself for helping to save the planet while thumbing your nose at those who see you for the played fool you are.

... (not addressed to any particular person). There are Global Warming threads galore here already, let this one die.

...

And the saddest part is that someone as intelligent as yourself knows so little science, you believe what you are saying is true.

I don't deny that business' will attempt to (perhaps succeed) in making profits.. that's how our system works, but it does not negate the real science.

Companies make a profit from aspirin, but it is still one of the the early "wonder drugs".

[Nobunaga]

... Who's ignoring science, Player? (nice to see you again, btw).

... I've said it a million times and I'll say it a million more - science shouldn't be political, though we both know it is now, and that's a crying shame. Too many stand to gain too much ($$) from this to let it slide by unchallenged, yet half of Americans salute and fall in line because of the politics tied into it. (Most) Progressives are believers. (Most) Conservatives are skeptics. That says much as to the extent to which science has been divorced from the argument.


“I am a skeptic…Global warming has become a new religion.” - Nobel Prize Winner for Physics, Ivar Giaever.

“Since I am no longer affiliated with any organization nor receiving any funding, I can speak quite frankly….As a scientist I remain skeptical.” - Atmospheric Scientist Dr. Joanne Simpson, the first woman in the world to receive a PhD in meteorology and formerly of NASA who has authored more than 190 studies and has been called “among the most preeminent scientists of the last 100 years.”

Warming fears are the “worst scientific scandal in the history…When people come to know what the truth is, they will feel deceived by science and scientists.” - UN IPCC Japanese Scientist Dr. Kiminori Itoh, an award-winning PhD environmental physical chemist.

“The IPCC has actually become a closed circuit; it doesn’t listen to others. It doesn’t have open minds… I am really amazed that the Nobel Peace Prize has been given on scientifically incorrect conclusions by people who are not geologists,” - Indian geologist Dr. Arun D. Ahluwalia at Punjab University and a board member of the UN-supported International Year of the Planet.

“The models and forecasts of the UN IPCC "are incorrect because they only are based on mathematical models and presented results at scenarios that do not include, for example, solar activity.” - Victor Manuel Velasco Herrera, a researcher at the Institute of Geophysics of the National Autonomous University of Mexico

“It is a blatant lie put forth in the media that makes it seem there is only a fringe of scientists who don’t buy into anthropogenic global warming.” - U.S Government Atmospheric Scientist Stanley B. Goldenberg of the Hurricane Research Division of NOAA.

“Even doubling or tripling the amount of carbon dioxide will virtually have little impact, as water vapour and water condensed on particles as clouds dominate the worldwide scene and always will.” – . Geoffrey G. Duffy, a professor in the Department of Chemical and Materials Engineering of the University of Auckland, NZ.

“After reading [UN IPCC chairman] Pachauri's asinine comment [comparing skeptics to] Flat Earthers, it's hard to remain quiet.” - Climate statistician Dr. William M. Briggs, who specializes in the statistics of forecast evaluation, serves on the American Meteorological Society's Probability and Statistics Committee and is an Associate Editor of Monthly Weather Review.

“For how many years must the planet cool before we begin to understand that the planet is not warming? For how many years must cooling go on?" - Geologist Dr. David Gee the chairman of the science committee of the 2008 International Geological Congress who has authored 130 plus peer reviewed papers, and is currently at Uppsala University in Sweden.

“Gore prompted me to start delving into the science again and I quickly found myself solidly in the skeptic camp…Climate models can at best be useful for explaining climate changes after the fact.” - Meteorologist Hajo Smit of Holland, who reversed his belief in man-made warming to become a skeptic, is a former member of the Dutch UN IPCC committee.

“Many [scientists] are now searching for a way to back out quietly (from promoting warming fears), without having their professional careers ruined.” - Atmospheric physicist James A. Peden, formerly of the Space Research and Coordination Center in Pittsburgh.

“Creating an ideology pegged to carbon dioxide is a dangerous nonsense…The present alarm on climate change is an instrument of social control, a pretext for major businesses and political battle. It became an ideology, which is concerning.” - Environmental Scientist Professor Delgado Domingos of Portugal, the founder of the Numerical Weather Forecast group, has more than 150 published articles.

“CO2 emissions make absolutely no difference one way or another….Every scientist knows this, but it doesn’t pay to say so…Global warming, as a political vehicle, keeps Europeans in the driver’s seat and developing nations walking barefoot.” - Dr. Takeda Kunihiko, vice-chancellor of the Institute of Science and Technology Research at Chubu University in Japan.

“The [global warming] scaremongering has its justification in the fact that it is something that generates funds.” - Award-winning Paleontologist Dr. Eduardo Tonni, of the Committee for Scientific Research in Buenos Aires and head of the Paleontology Department at the University of La Plata. # #

http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/sppi_ ... rming.html

http://windfarms.wordpress.com/2008/07/ ... ordinaire/

http://www.aim.org/special-report/will- ... g-con-job/

Several Links here:

http://www.dailytech.com/searchresults. ... %20Warming

[2dimes]

... Global Warming isn't about Global Warming, it's about taxes and control. Cap n' Trade didn't make it through the budget, so now we see this. No big surprise.

... Your lifestyle, with such affluence and consumption, is such that you are destroying the planet. Therefore, a bit of sufferring on your part is required. As a bonus you get to feel good about yourself for helping to save the planet while thumbing your nose at those who see you for the played fool you are.

... (not addressed to any particular person except player57832 what a sheep!). There are Global Warming threads galore here already, let this one die.

...

And the saddest part is that someone as intelligent as yourself knows so little science, you believe what you are saying is true.

I don't deny that business' will attempt to (perhaps succeed) in making profits.. that's how our system works, but it does not negate the real science.

Companies make a profit from aspirin, but it is still one of the the early "wonder drugs".

Fixed that up for you Nobung, you're welcome.

I'm no dinasaur, if the water rises I'll find the higher ground, again. This wouldn't be the first time there's been a big flood. Look at the huge valley with the trickle of a creek running through it. Gosh how did that happen? Must have been from those T-rex's driving their fossel fuel powered SUVs.

Oh, uh, yeah... they are the fossil fuel. Next theory!

[a.sub]

“I am a skeptic…Global warming has become a new religion.” - Nobel Prize Winner for Physics, Ivar Giaever.

“Since I am no longer affiliated with any organization nor receiving any funding, I can speak quite frankly….As a scientist I remain skeptical.” - Atmospheric Scientist Dr. Joanne Simpson, the first woman in the world to receive a PhD in meteorology and formerly of NASA who has authored more than 190 studies and has been called “among the most preeminent scientists of the last 100 years.”

Warming fears are the “worst scientific scandal in the history…When people come to know what the truth is, they will feel deceived by science and scientists.” - UN IPCC Japanese Scientist Dr. Kiminori Itoh, an award-winning PhD environmental physical chemist.

“The IPCC has actually become a closed circuit; it doesn’t listen to others. It doesn’t have open minds… I am really amazed that the Nobel Peace Prize has been given on scientifically incorrect conclusions by people who are not geologists,” - Indian geologist Dr. Arun D. Ahluwalia at Punjab University and a board member of the UN-supported International Year of the Planet.

“The models and forecasts of the UN IPCC "are incorrect because they only are based on mathematical models and presented results at scenarios that do not include, for example, solar activity.” - Victor Manuel Velasco Herrera, a researcher at the Institute of Geophysics of the National Autonomous University of Mexico

“It is a blatant lie put forth in the media that makes it seem there is only a fringe of scientists who don’t buy into anthropogenic global warming.” - U.S Government Atmospheric Scientist Stanley B. Goldenberg of the Hurricane Research Division of NOAA.

“Even doubling or tripling the amount of carbon dioxide will virtually have little impact, as water vapour and water condensed on particles as clouds dominate the worldwide scene and always will.” – . Geoffrey G. Duffy, a professor in the Department of Chemical and Materials Engineering of the University of Auckland, NZ.

“After reading [UN IPCC chairman] Pachauri's asinine comment [comparing skeptics to] Flat Earthers, it's hard to remain quiet.” - Climate statistician Dr. William M. Briggs, who specializes in the statistics of forecast evaluation, serves on the American Meteorological Society's Probability and Statistics Committee and is an Associate Editor of Monthly Weather Review.

“For how many years must the planet cool before we begin to understand that the planet is not warming? For how many years must cooling go on?" - Geologist Dr. David Gee the chairman of the science committee of the 2008 International Geological Congress who has authored 130 plus peer reviewed papers, and is currently at Uppsala University in Sweden.

“Gore prompted me to start delving into the science again and I quickly found myself solidly in the skeptic camp…Climate models can at best be useful for explaining climate changes after the fact.” - Meteorologist Hajo Smit of Holland, who reversed his belief in man-made warming to become a skeptic, is a former member of the Dutch UN IPCC committee.

“Many [scientists] are now searching for a way to back out quietly (from promoting warming fears), without having their professional careers ruined.” - Atmospheric physicist James A. Peden, formerly of the Space Research and Coordination Center in Pittsburgh.

“Creating an ideology pegged to carbon dioxide is a dangerous nonsense…The present alarm on climate change is an instrument of social control, a pretext for major businesses and political battle. It became an ideology, which is concerning.” - Environmental Scientist Professor Delgado Domingos of Portugal, the founder of the Numerical Weather Forecast group, has more than 150 published articles.

“CO2 emissions make absolutely no difference one way or another….Every scientist knows this, but it doesn’t pay to say so…Global warming, as a political vehicle, keeps Europeans in the driver’s seat and developing nations walking barefoot.” - Dr. Takeda Kunihiko, vice-chancellor of the Institute of Science and Technology Research at Chubu University in Japan.

“The [global warming] scaremongering has its justification in the fact that it is something that generates funds.” - Award-winning Paleontologist Dr. Eduardo Tonni, of the Committee for Scientific Research in Buenos Aires and head of the Paleontology Department at the University of La Plata. # #

http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/sppi_ ... rming.html

http://windfarms.wordpress.com/2008/07/ ... ordinaire/

http://www.aim.org/special-report/will- ... g-con-job/

Several Links here:

http://www.dailytech.com/searchresults. ... %20Warming

being that there is no Logic behind this and you are simply saying "This guy said it and hes right because he is smart" is a form of an ad hominem logical fallacy.
Instead of:
X is wrong because X is bad
you say:
X is right because X is good
either way same concept

[oVo]

So the receeding ice on both poles, Iceland, Greenland and the glaciers of the Himalayas'
isn't something we should be concerned about because this whole thing is about money
and keeping Third World Countries in their place. Have I got that right?

[a.sub]

So the receeding ice on both poles, Iceland, Greenland and the glaciers of the Himalayas'
isn't something we should be concerned about because this whole thing is about money
and keeping Third World Countries in their place. Have I got that right?

[sarcasm] you're obviously just over reacting, gosh, you silly environmentalist [/sarcasm]

[oVo]

I was thinking that Nobunaga might link me to a scientific dialogue
that shows how this illusion is achieved with mirrors.

[2dimes]

I think he's all linked out.

[InkL0sed]

Seriously, this is scary. Obama is power-hungry on epic proportions.

If we don't stop him, he'll soon have control over the entire Solar System.

[a.sub]

Seriously, this is scary. Obama is power-hungry on epic proportions.

If we don't stop him, he'll soon have control over the entire Solar System.

Join me, and together we can rule the galaxy

[pimpdave]

Seriously, this is scary. Obama is power-hungry on epic proportions.

If we don't stop him, he'll soon have control over the entire Solar System.

By the transitive power, he already does.

[DRAMATIC PAUSE]

[Juan_Bottom]

Seriously, this is scary. Obama is power-hungry on epic proportions.

If we don't stop him, he'll soon have control over the entire Solar System.

By the transitive power, he already does.

[DRAMATIC PAUSE]

lol




And for the record, don't know if I'm pulling a Dick Cheny* here, but I agree with Nobunaga. Planets and moons all over our solar system are experiencing "global warming," WHY IS THAT IRRELEVANT?

So the receeding ice on both poles, Iceland, Greenland and the glaciers of the Himalayas'
isn't something we should be concerned about because this whole thing is about money
and keeping Third World Countries in their place. Have I got that right?

No. We're saying that man is not the cause of the thinning ice. Instead they're taking that and running with it.

being that there is no Logic behind this and you are simply saying "This guy said it and hes right because he is smart" is a form of an ad hominem

This doesn't make any sense. You are saying that each individual can only make their own global climate change models and then only trust those or something. There is no logic behind this.
"Never listen to scientists, that's ad hominem!"

X is right because X is good
either way same concept

That is exactly the arguement I always expect to hear when I throw out there that Global Climate Ghange is going on ALL OVER OUR SYSTEM. Or try to show that the earth is cooling; People then say, "well whatever you believe, it's right to care about our planet and take better care of it. If this is the vehicle that gets that done, then this is the vehicle I believe in."
Not saying that you're saying that.

I was thinking that Nobunaga might link me to a scientific dialogue
that shows how this illusion is achieved with mirrors.

How what is acheived with smoke and mirrors?
Anyway, would it change your mind? I've been on these forums for quite a while now, and I can only recall seeing TWO PEOPLE admit that they might be wrong on a subject, or even change their mind completely. I've admitted being wrong a couple times (most notably about a college not allowing students to register to vote) and Pimpdave (police officer let dog die thread). It made my level of respect for him shoot through the roof. Where I'm from, you do that. You admit when you're not an expert, or you didn't think of something in a certain way, or that you made a mistake. But I've given up on most people here, and now I try not to waste my time.



*like when he endorsed John McCain for president

[Gregrios]

I tend to agree with the whole global warming thing but at the same time I'm about the worst when it comes to littering. I just don't care. Do you know why? I'll tell you why. It's because God isn't going to let this planet be destroyed. I do however think that we are going to see some major changes in the weather but rest assure, planet earth ain't going nowhere and you can take that to the bank!

[Nobunaga]

... I quote scientists, you folks return sarcasm.

... Who here is a climatoligist? Do not pretend to know that which you know absolutely nothing about. Opinion is great when we're discussing, say, immigration, guns, Obama, Socialism vs Capitalism, etc... but your opinions on this topic are based entirely on what "other people said" (as are mine). As such, you must certainly be right then.

... I do not deny warming. But what's going on with cooling now then, too? I simply do not accept that this warming, if it is warming, is man-made, or even the result of carbon increases. Why should I, when I can find thousands (34,000, actually) of scientists who say otherwise?

... And you prove my point. A quick look at post histories by the sarcastic among us reveal you to be firmly in the "Progressive camp", ready to let your government walk all over you so long as those stepping on you are the ones you voted for. What's the deficit now? .....


... Who is this guy, then?

“I am a skeptic…Global warming has become a new religion.” - Nobel Prize Winner for Physics, Ivar Giaever.

... Idiot, obviously. I mean Al Gore has a Nobel Prize, too, right? And he's big into science. Probably had a few biology courses in University even. Nevermind the fact that he stands to make billions if/when a cap n' trade system launches in the U.S. as head of the carbon credit brokerage.

... Perhaps Captain Kangaroo, or Hannah Montana would make perfect frontmen for, say, stem cell research advocacy. I mean, obviously, they are such authorities on the subject.

... Sheep. Get your wallets out.

... <edit> As an aside, I'm probably the "greenest" guy on this board.

...

[Gregrios]

How can you deny all that goes on around you? (weather wise) Changes are happening everywhere, right under your nose. Sure, maybe it's not global warming, but something is definitely happening. So unless you have a alternative explanation, all you're doing is stating your opinion.

[Dancing Mustard]

How can you deny all that goes on around you? (weather wise) Changes are happening everywhere, right under your nose. Sure, maybe it's not global warming, but something is definitely happening.

Yeah dude! Right motherfucking on!

I mean, like, yesterday I was sat outside my house on an old settee that fell off of the back of a lorry, occupying my time by wolf-whistling at hot girls who passed by, and then suddenly, right in the middle of the high-C starting note of a whistle the blazing sunshine stops. A cloud has arrived. Big change, amirite?

But then, and this bit is pretty fucking spooky, it started to rain on me. Can you believe that? Rain drops actually started falling out of the cloud and landing on me and my settee (also: the hot girls that were currently perambulating adjacent to my location). Fucking mega-change, right next to me, in front of my own God-given eyes. Crazy shit.

So there, anybody who denies that change is taking place is living a lie. Global warming in action kids, right there on my doorstep. Q to the E to the motherfucking D.

[Skittles!]

How can you deny all that goes on around you? (weather wise) Changes are happening everywhere, right under your nose. Sure, maybe it's not global warming, but something is definitely happening.

Yeah dude! Right motherfucking on!

I mean, like, yesterday I was sat outside my house on an old settee that fell off of the back of a lorry, occupying my time by wolf-whistling at hot girls who passed by, and then suddenly, right in the middle of the high-C starting note of a whistle the blazing sunshine stops. A cloud has arrived. Big change, amirite?

But then, and this bit is pretty fucking spooky, it started to rain on me. Can you believe that? Rain drops actually started falling out of the cloud and landing on me and my settee (also: the hot girls that were currently perambulating adjacent to my location). Fucking mega-change, right next to me, in front of my own God-given eyes. Crazy shit.

So there, anybody who denies that change is taking place is living a lie. Global warming in action kids, right there on my doorstep. Q to the E to the motherfucking D.

lol.

[MeDeFe]

I tend to agree with the whole global warming thing but at the same time I'm about the worst when it comes to littering. I just don't care. Do you know why? I'll tell you why. It's because God isn't going to let this planet be destroyed. I do however think that we are going to see some major changes in the weather but rest assure, planet earth ain't going nowhere and you can take that to the bank!

If you piss him off enough he may change his mind and go "well, if they want to be that way, fine!", the OT mentions a few instances of that happening.

[StiffMittens]

Planets and moons all over our solar system are experiencing "global warming," WHY IS THAT IRRELEVANT?

So the receeding ice on both poles, Iceland, Greenland and the glaciers of the Himalayas'
isn't something we should be concerned about because this whole thing is about money
and keeping Third World Countries in their place. Have I got that right?

No. We're saying that man is not the cause of the thinning ice. Instead they're taking that and running with it.

There's a significant amount of debate about this. Many people would say that "global warming deniers" are taking an unrelated observation (change in the sun's irradiation) and running away with that.

One of the most interesting logical points I've come across in this debate is that if the Sun is the source of what's taking place on Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Triton, and Pluto, you'd expect that the effects would be more dramatic on the planets closer in and more subtle on the planets further out in the solar system. But the reverse appears to be true. Pluto has already experienced a 300% increase in atmospheric pressure.

[jonesthecurl]

I've onlyseen this mentioned once, but it was in the BBC's astronomy magazine, Sky At Night, and thus presumably reliable:
I don't know how true it is now, but at the time of the zine (about three years), there had been an unuaual amount of cosmic dust the years before (2005 perhaps), which certainly could have been a pat of the cause. We are in a fairly dusty region at the moment.
As for Pluto, is it in the part of its orbit just now which takes it closer to the sun? I know it has a very eccentric orbit.