South Africa Map - Back On Track?

Crowley · Post by **Crowley** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 7:20 am

boberz wrote:dislike title and flag more than the last one. Why did you change it i thought you did not want to

Just playing around...

Crowley · Post by **Crowley** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 7:20 am

bigbullyweedave wrote:This map looks fantastic - well done!

Thanks to your map (or rather my observing it's progress through this thread) I was able to answer a pub quiz question this week - "Name the landlocked country within South Africa"

Conquer Club, educating the nation!

Glad to be of service

Crowley · Post by **Crowley** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 7:34 am

Update v19:
Changed flag and map name back to previous flag, but sharpened it up a bit.

boberz · Post by **boberz** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:16 am

this is the best flag yet (as you say its sharper) but i dont like the font for the ttle

Crowley · Post by **Crowley** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 2:46 pm

OK, how about this font?

Bad Speler · Post by **Bad Speler** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:35 pm

I like this font but i think the flag is too sharp

Crowley · Post by **Crowley** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 2:59 am

Noted. That's why I made it a little transparent, but that made it too fuzzy for some...

Anybody else?

KEYOGI · Post by **KEYOGI** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 3:27 am

Is this South Africa map a playable option?

Yes
67% [ 47 ]
No
5% [ 4 ]
Needs work
27% [ 19 ]

Total Votes : 70

Crowley · Post by **Crowley** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 5:16 pm

Thanks KEYOGI.

Please check out the new poll and add your voice.

KEYOGI · Post by **KEYOGI** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 6:35 pm

This map's looking pretty close to completion I would think. Time to look at the tiny insignificant things, because I can't see any significant problems myself.

There's a small bit of colour from Zululand on the dead territory side of the border.

The river on the North of Ukhahlamba seems to be a little messy. There's some grey showing through underneath it. Same goes for North Freestate.

I think the mountains could use a little more work. They don't quite seem to fit in with the rest of the map. Perhaps soften the dark edge on them a little as I think that's what makes them stand out. Also, some of the edges don't run all the way down the side of a mountain. The dead territory side of the Swaziland mountains for example.

Any reason for the mix of font colours in the legend? I feel it would look better if they were all the same.

Your army circles don't quite seem to be circles.

My last little issue is the title. I'm not convinced that font is the best option, perhaps look into some alternatives.

Crowley · Post by **Crowley** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 12:58 am

Will look at this ASAP.

Samus · Post by **Samus** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 1:58 am

KEYOGI wrote:This map's looking pretty close to completion I would think. Time to look at the tiny insignificant things, because I can't see any significant problems myself.

Why isn't this map marked "Final Forge" then? If there's a more complicated qualification, I'd love to know what it is, but all the Development Atlas says is "Final Forge = Map near completion." Like you said, this map is near completion.

We haven't had any maps marked "Final Forge" in well over a month. If Andy is busy, I can understand that, but I really feel like maps should have that tag for at least a few weeks before they are quenched. There are a lot of people who don't follow every map in the Foundry, but they should still get a chance to "say their final piece" before the map gets quenched. What's more, there are several maps, like San Francisco and others, which are winding down on feedback from the people who follow them. Marking them "Final Forge" would bring them a great deal more attention and new perspectives.

I guess I just don't see any real downside to marking 4 or 5 of the maps "Final Forge." They still have to make the same improvements, they'll just be getting more feedback to help them along.

AndyDufresne · Post by **AndyDufresne** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 2:53 pm

Jeez, worry less about Forging and more about the working of the map.

Don't worry, many of the maps near Forging will be Forged soon enough...but I suppose that isn't soon enough?

--Andy

Samus · Post by **Samus** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 3:29 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:Jeez, worry less about Forging and more about the working of the map. Don't worry, many of the maps near Forging will be Forged soon enough...but I suppose that isn't soon enough?

--Andy

Well, my concern is more that maps like this will wind up being in Final Forge for about a week. Some of the more casual Foundry viewers might not see it until it's quenched, and then say "wait, you didn't think of ______!!!" Too late...

Also, from the map maker's point of view, many of these guys are under the impression they're nearly done and are eagerly awaiting more suggestions. When they are finally marked "Final Forge," they will get a flood of new responses and suddenly have all kinds of changes that they could have started addressing weeks earlier.

To be clear, I will never be part of the "quench it" crew. No map will ever be perfect, so it's never "unfair" for a map maker to keep working on a map. But right now there's not really any marking in the Development Atlas to distinguish maps as far along as this one from maps which have a ton of work still to do.

AndyDufresne · Post by **AndyDufresne** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 3:58 pm

If we could assign arbitrary %'s next to each name, that'd solve it...but then we'd have to write out what *exactly* constitutes each percentage.

We've got some things in the works to help smooth out the general Foundry Process a little more, so stay tuned.

--Andy

DiM · Post by **DiM** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 4:04 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:If we could assign arbitrary %'s next to each name, that'd solve it...but then we'd have to write out what *exactly* constitutes each percentage. We've got some things in the works to help smooth out the general Foundry Process a little more, so stay tuned.

--Andy

i think the main problem now is the slow pace. maps could be done really really fast and i think some cartographers could make maps at the rate of 1-2 per month if they had enough feedback. so i think the first step would be to make a team of experienced users and cartographers that observe the progress of maps and give feedback and guidelines to the authors. 10-15 people would be enough. at the moment i see the same phenomenon in many maps. a guy comes up with a new idea and posts a draft. at least 30 people come and say it's great and want to play it but only ~5 offer constructive feedback, and after some time maybe maximum 10 people constantly post on that thread even though in the polls there are 80 votes.

KEYOGI · Post by **KEYOGI** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 5:03 pm

DiM wrote:i think the main problem now is the slow pace. maps could be done really really fast and i think some cartographers could make maps at the rate of 1-2 per month if they had enough feedback.

I don't understand the need for maps to be put through at such a rate. DiM, for Age of Merchants you have 62 updates in 27 pages. Australia was quenched within three months with less updates than you have pages, a lot less.

There's a lot of people that visit the Foundry and make helpful suggestions, but all these people are in different time zones and have very different commitments and interests. I think the Foundry works best when it's given time to work at its own pace, rather than have cartographers trying to rush maps through.

Samus · Post by **Samus** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 5:16 pm

KEYOGI wrote:
DiM wrote:i think the main problem now is the slow pace. maps could be done really really fast and i think some cartographers could make maps at the rate of 1-2 per month if they had enough feedback.
I don't understand the need for maps to be put through at such a rate. DiM, for Age of Merchants you have 62 updates in 27 pages. Australia was quenched within three months with less updates than you have pages, a lot less.

Well, in DiM's defense, he used an entirely new concept for bonuses, throwing out the idea of regions. This required a lot more discussion and fiddling. And his method of doing lots of small updates instead of one big update isn't better or worse than normal, it just results in more updates.

DiM · Post by **DiM** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 5:28 pm

KEYOGI wrote:
DiM wrote:i think the main problem now is the slow pace. maps could be done really really fast and i think some cartographers could make maps at the rate of 1-2 per month if they had enough feedback.
I don't understand the need for maps to be put through at such a rate. DiM, for Age of Merchants you have 62 updates in 27 pages. Australia was quenched within three months with less updates than you have pages, a lot less.

There's a lot of people that visit the Foundry and make helpful suggestions, but all these people are in different time zones and have very different commitments and interests. I think the Foundry works best when it's given time to work at its own pace, rather than have cartographers trying to rush maps through.

most of my updates are for minor things because i immediately implemen what i'm asked and i don't wait for suggestions to pile up before i do updates. anyway the number of updates does not matter. i could have 2 updates and make a perfect map or 1000 and still suck. the time it takes to quench a map is the problem. i wasn't around when you made australia but i bet with proper support you could have made it in only one month or even less.

timezones don't count. it's the fact that very few people are giving constant and supporting feedback. for example i like to look at all the maps and post suggestions and i even take the time to do graphic examples. this helps speed things up. i've had on my AoM map lots of votes (~80) but how many people have actually posted something constructive? 10 at most. this is not good. different timezones you say. that's not a valid point. regardless of the timezone you still login once a day to check your games and when you do it you can take a look at the foundry and post something.
anyway look at samus for example. he really knows how tohelp, i've seen him post in a lot of threads and really helping, we need more people like that. or look at qwert, i've hardly seen him posting in other thread maps and when he did he wasn't helping he was trolling.

i'm tired of maps being almost complete (in my opinion) where andy doesn't show up to say it is ready for final forge. i'm tired of people redundantly asking for quenching when andy is nowhere to be found. with you as his assistant things should be speeding up. i understand andy has a life, you have a life, heck each of us do, but if one is not enough get another, and another and another... i already suggested guiscard and widowmakers. and there are a few others that might be just as good.

why speed things up? well, ummm, to get more maps??
why have a cartographer spend 3 months for each map when he can get the same result in a fraction of the time. and perhaps produce 3 maps in the same amount of time? i like efficiency, i like solving problems and managing things, heck i'm a manager in real life. i always feel the need to improve things find new ideas and methods to do things good and fast.

anyway this discussion has no point in this thread, maybe you could move these posts in a new thread.

KEYOGI · Post by **KEYOGI** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 5:40 pm

You are right, lets not clutter Crowley's thread with off topic discussion. If you really feel this topic warrants further discussion feel free to start up an appropriately titled thread. I think the Foundry process works extremely well, I doubt you'll be able to convince me otherwise.

DiM · Post by **DiM** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 5:42 pm

KEYOGI wrote:You are right, lets not clutter Crowley's thread with off topic discussion. If you really feel this topic warrants further discussion feel free to start up an appropriately titled thread. I think the Foundry process works extremely well, I doubt you'll be able to convince me otherwise.

ok. please move theposts here: http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 672#328672

Contrickster · Post by **Contrickster** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 6:18 pm

Look of the map is good. The note, and legend is great. Mountains cool. Bridges cute.

However I think the border of Eastern/Western Cape in particular needs to be simplified. Same Free state and Eastern cape. In fact most of the inner-continent borders could receive a little more attention. A bit like looking at spagetti at the moment as I can't fathom the logic of the border placements.

Crowley · Post by **Crowley** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 2:52 pm

OK, I will probably not be able to update this as much as I would've liked.
I'm getting married in a week and will then go on honeymoon later in April in Malawi until early May.

I thought I could finish the map before this - this is why I've worked on it at such a pace

, but as I've now learned that the process takes longer than the odd month, so I'll finish it then.

Some updates may follow in the next 2 weeks and I WILL finish, but just not now...

Guiscard · Post by **Guiscard** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 3:32 pm

Congrats. Nice map too

Will comment further after I see the updates. Just wanted to say i was surprised to take a look at this map and see it so well developed. Hadn't been following it at all. Good work.

Ruben Cassar · Post by **Ruben Cassar** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 3:34 pm

Congratulations mate. Enjoy!

South Africa Map - Back On Track?

What area of the map needs the most work?