Did Jesus Really Sacrifice All That Much?

[Army of GOD]

f*ck da police comin' straight from the underground

[GreecePwns]

What happened to the whole praying for forgiveness thing? I thought if one really meant it they could confess their sins and pray for forgiveness and its all good in the hood.

Night Strike, is the Bible to be taken literally word for word, or interpreted and applied to today's world?

[BigBallinStalin]

Would you say Jesus is greedy for choosing a more profitable life in Heaven instead of staying on Earth and helping people directly?

I'd say being a perfect person but dying and taking on the sins of everyone throughout history is quite giving.

He's God; surely, there's an lower cost way to take everyone's sins (yet leave them with "original" sin) and still remain directly in the world to help others. So, why didn't that happen?

Because the only way to pay for sin is by death.

So, God #3 had no choice but to die? That makes no sense if he's omnipotent.

[GreecePwns]

Muslims believe Jesus never died on the cross, nor is he a God. He was a prophet who the one God that isn't three Gods (someone please explain how three gods are one god what is this I don't even) took up to heaven before he died, and the God substituted Jesus with another person who looked just like him before he even got on the cross. If that makes any more sense.

[Gavino07]

Hey fellow CCers, I wanta point something out. You gonna believe what you wanta believe, so I'm not gonna argue. I wanta define love for you. 1 John 3:16 says, "We know love by this, that He laid down his life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren." It's really simple. Jesus wants you to love your neighbor through sacrifice just as Jesus demonstrated for you.

Also, you can't love without the Holy Spirit in you. I can't explain it all. You just gonna have to read the New Testament and learn about him. People say its not a religion, it a relationship. But I say that's a no brainer and its beyond that. Everyone has a relationship with God, whether it be negative/positive or active/inactive. I call the situation, love. An experience with God is love, in every aspect of the word in its truest sense. Repent from your wickedness, for the Kingdom of Heaven has come near. Confess AND believe Jesus is Lord and that Spirit of love will dwell in you. Peace. He is risen!

[comic boy]

Hey fellow CCers, I wanta point something out. You gonna believe what you wanta believe, so I'm not gonna argue. I wanta define love for you. 1 John 3:16 says, "We know love by this, that He laid down his life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren." It's really simple. Jesus wants you to love your neighbor through sacrifice just as Jesus demonstrated for you.

Also, you can't love without the Holy Spirit in you. I can't explain it all. You just gonna have to read the New Testament and learn about him. People say its not a religion, it a relationship. But I say that's a no brainer and its beyond that. Everyone has a relationship with God, whether it be negative/positive or active/inactive. I call the situation, love. An experience with God is love, in every aspect of the word in its truest sense. Repent from your wickedness, for the Kingdom of Heaven has come near. Confess AND believe Jesus is Lord and that Spirit of love will dwell in you. Peace. He is risen!

Good for you if believing that makes you happy , seriously , my relationship with The Easter Bunny gives me a similar buzz, especially when we are snorting a few lines

[chang50]

Would you say Jesus is greedy for choosing a more profitable life in Heaven instead of staying on Earth and helping people directly?

I'd say being a perfect person but dying and taking on the sins of everyone throughout history is quite giving.

Not to mention unbelievable.What could possibly motivate a perfect person?If you have needs,desires,wants,even emotions you are definitionally less than perfect,because you are lacking the things you want.

[BigBallinStalin]

Muslims believe Jesus never died on the cross, nor is he a God. He was a prophet who the one God that isn't three Gods (someone please explain how three gods are one god what is this I don't even) took up to heaven before he died, and the God substituted Jesus with another person who looked just like him before he even got on the cross. If that makes any more sense.

Yeah, well, I don't like the Quran. I like the Bible more; therefore, I'm going to believe that the Three-Gods-In-One explanation is true. Never mind that I can't falsify either, it doesn't matter! I just like the Bible more. Been raised on it, other people do it, and it says so in the Bible; therefore, what I believe is true, which means that your claim must be false.

[BigBallinStalin]

Hey fellow CCers, I wanta point something out. You gonna believe what you wanta believe, so I'm not gonna argue. I wanta define love for you. 1 John 3:16 says, "We know love by this, that He laid down his life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren." It's really simple. Jesus wants you to love your neighbor through sacrifice just as Jesus demonstrated for you.

Also, you can't love without the Holy Spirit in you. I can't explain it all. You just gonna have to read the New Testament and learn about him. People say its not a religion, it a relationship. But I say that's a no brainer and its beyond that. Everyone has a relationship with God, whether it be negative/positive or active/inactive. I call the situation, love. An experience with God is love, in every aspect of the word in its truest sense. Repent from your wickedness, for the Kingdom of Heaven has come near. Confess AND believe Jesus is Lord and that Spirit of love will dwell in you. Peace. He is risen!

Self-sacrifice isn't always love if it's involuntary. According to NS, Jesus didn't have a choice.

[Night Strike]

Don't get me wrong, I feel that abiding by the ideals of not sinning would make lots of people much better human beings; but I don't approve of the "don't sin or you'll die" rhetoric.

Then you don't approve of the specific phrase "For the wages of sin are death" in the Bible. You don't get to just pick and choose which parts of the Bible you approve of. The "rhetoric" isn't just something that Christians made up.

Do you think it's fair for God to kill the first born of every Egyptian, including those that had nothing to do with the enslaving of the Jews?

That was only done because the Pharoah would not let the Israelities leave slavery in Egypt.

Self-sacrifice isn't always love if it's involuntary. According to NS, Jesus didn't have a choice.

I never said that. I said that the punishment for sin is death. Jesus did not have to die on the cross as he could have allowed us to pay our own, well-deserved wages by death and eternal separation from God.

What happened to the whole praying for forgiveness thing? I thought if one really meant it they could confess their sins and pray for forgiveness and its all good in the hood.

Night Strike, is the Bible to be taken literally word for word, or interpreted and applied to today's world?

Asking for forgiveness is all we have to do currently to receive forgiveness, but that's only because our debt has already been paid.

And parts of the Bible are meant to be taken literally and other parts are not. No one can take the Bible as completely one or the other.

[chang50]

Don't get me wrong, I feel that abiding by the ideals of not sinning would make lots of people much better human beings; but I don't approve of the "don't sin or you'll die" rhetoric.

Then you don't approve of the specific phrase "For the wages of sin are death" in the Bible. You don't get to just pick and choose which parts of the Bible you approve of. The "rhetoric" isn't just something that Christians made up.

Do you think it's fair for God to kill the first born of every Egyptian, including those that had nothing to do with the enslaving of the Jews?

That was only done because the Pharoah would not let the Israelities leave slavery in Egypt.

Self-sacrifice isn't always love if it's involuntary. According to NS, Jesus didn't have a choice.

I never said that. I said that the punishment for sin is death. Jesus did not have to die on the cross as he could have allowed us to pay our own, well-deserved wages by death and eternal separation from God.

What happened to the whole praying for forgiveness thing? I thought if one really meant it they could confess their sins and pray for forgiveness and its all good in the hood.

Night Strike, is the Bible to be taken literally word for word, or interpreted and applied to today's world?

Asking for forgiveness is all we have to do currently to receive forgiveness, but that's only because our debt has already been paid.

And parts of the Bible are meant to be taken literally and other parts are not. No one can take the Bible as completely one or the other.

So,who exactly is intelligent enough to know God's intentions with regard to which parts are allegorical and which are literally true?Once decided is this then set in stone?

[Night Strike]

Don't get me wrong, I feel that abiding by the ideals of not sinning would make lots of people much better human beings; but I don't approve of the "don't sin or you'll die" rhetoric.

Then you don't approve of the specific phrase "For the wages of sin are death" in the Bible. You don't get to just pick and choose which parts of the Bible you approve of. The "rhetoric" isn't just something that Christians made up.

Do you think it's fair for God to kill the first born of every Egyptian, including those that had nothing to do with the enslaving of the Jews?

That was only done because the Pharoah would not let the Israelities leave slavery in Egypt.

Self-sacrifice isn't always love if it's involuntary. According to NS, Jesus didn't have a choice.

I never said that. I said that the punishment for sin is death. Jesus did not have to die on the cross as he could have allowed us to pay our own, well-deserved wages by death and eternal separation from God.

What happened to the whole praying for forgiveness thing? I thought if one really meant it they could confess their sins and pray for forgiveness and its all good in the hood.

Night Strike, is the Bible to be taken literally word for word, or interpreted and applied to today's world?

Asking for forgiveness is all we have to do currently to receive forgiveness, but that's only because our debt has already been paid.

And parts of the Bible are meant to be taken literally and other parts are not. No one can take the Bible as completely one or the other.

So,who exactly is intelligent enough to know God's intentions with regard to which parts are allegorical and which are literally true?Once decided is this then set in stone?

Well, there are portions that are clearly outlined as stories, such as the parables. There are also parts where there are dreams and interpretations of dreams. You read the Bible just like any other literary work to learn which parts are allegory and which are literal. There are literary words and phrases that people look for to help determine which parts are which. I'm a chemist, not a biblical scholar, so I can't just go through and give details on every single passage.

[chang50]

hen you don't approve of the specific phrase "For the wages of sin are death" in the Bible. You don't get to just pick and choose which parts of the Bible you approve of. The "rhetoric" isn't just something that Christians made up.[/quote]

Do you think it's fair for God to kill the first born of every Egyptian, including those that had nothing to do with the enslaving of the Jews?[/quote]

That was only done because the Pharoah would not let the Israelities leave slavery in Egypt.

Self-sacrifice isn't always love if it's involuntary. According to NS, Jesus didn't have a choice.

I never said that. I said that the punishment for sin is death. Jesus did not have to die on the cross as he could have allowed us to pay our own, well-deserved wages by death and eternal separation from God.

What happened to the whole praying for forgiveness thing? I thought if one really meant it they could confess their sins and pray for forgiveness and its all good in the hood.

Night Strike, is the Bible to be taken literally word for word, or interpreted and applied to today's world?

Asking for forgiveness is all we have to do currently to receive forgiveness, but that's only because our debt has already been paid.

And parts of the Bible are meant to be taken literally and other parts are not. No one can take the Bible as completely one or the other.[/quote]

So,who exactly is intelligent enough to know God's intentions with regard to which parts are allegorical and which are literally true?Once decided is this then set in stone?[/quote]

Well, there are portions that are clearly outlined as stories, such as the parables. There are also parts where there are dreams and interpretations of dreams. You read the Bible just like any other literary work to learn which parts are allegory and which are literal. There are literary words and phrases that people look for to help determine which parts are which. I'm a chemist, not a biblical scholar, so I can't just go through and give details on every single passage.[/quote]

I understand that,what I want to know is how any mere fallible human can be sure about the intentions of the deity?Sounds kinda fatuous and arrogant to me..

[notyou2]

How can you quote someone 400 years after it happened? They must have had tape recorders 2000 years ago.

[Gavino07]

Close, they had paper recorders. In Greek.

[jgordon1111]

Look this is really very easy,you have faith or you dont. You can argue to the end of time and not get any closer to a result.

Just because you cant see something or touch it everyday does not mean its not there.

Example,how many of you have ever seen a real atom,hands up please. Its there that has been proven. But prior to proving it some that therorized the existance were ridiculed by thier peers.

Each individual religon has their beliefs and very few can prove any of it, It's faith.

When you can prove or disprove God or any religion by all means please post your findings.

I await your results.

[chang50]

Look this is really very easy,you have faith or you dont. You can argue to the end of time and not get any closer to a result.

Just because you cant see something or touch it everyday does not mean its not there.

Example,how many of you have ever seen a real atom,hands up please. Its there that has been proven. But prior to proving it some that therorized the existance were ridiculed by thier peers.

Each individual religon has their beliefs and very few can prove any of it, It's faith.

When you can prove or disprove God or any religion by all means please post your findings.

I await your results.

Nobody can,thats patently obvious,it doesn't stop people wanting to discuss such things,I'm not expecting to change minds just hoping to understand a little better a fascinating subject.

[GreecePwns]

Each individual religon has their beliefs and very few can prove any of it, It's faith.
When you can prove or disprove God or any religion by all means please post your findings.
I await your results.

By the same logic, I can say that within protons and electrons are quarks, and within the quarks are little hamsters running around in wheels in certain direction, creating positive or negative charges. Can it be proved true or false? Maybe not with the technology we have currently, but eventually technology can evolve to take a look inside of quarks (if it can't already; I don't know). This is like saying there is a God. It can be argued over with some sort of Socratic logic (that is to say, factual premises leading to a conclusion) until it is definitively proven true and false. Because of this, one can believe in a god without religion.

Now what if I said those hamsters were put there by God, and are therefore holy beings? And that fucking with them you're going to go to hell? And that god chose me to send this message? This is not falsifiable by any means, and in a logical debate would be disregarded completely.

I think this is what BBS is getting at.

You can substitute the hamster part with any sort of claim that cannot currently be proven true or false but discussed logically, like Heisenburg uncertainty particles.

[oVo]

How can you quote someone 400 years after it happened? They must have had tape recorders 2000 years ago.

Recorders were usually known as scribes back in the day. It is said that Jelalludin Rumi --in Persia-- had a pair that accompanied him everywhere to "record" his stories and spiritual expressions.

Bump a few neutrons around and you get something new, or maybe it was there all along.
Maybe the sign on Jesus' shop was misinterpreted and actually read "Gone Fission."

[Chariot of Fire]

When you can prove that the hundreds of gods you don't believe in are imaginary, then I'll prove that the one you do believe in is also imaginary.

Don't make promises you can't keep. There are many things in this World
that can't be explained.

Jesus was a Carpenter.

I knew one of them died of anorexia. I hadn't realised the other was crucified.

Mind you, some of their songs were pretty sappy.

[pmchugh]

Do you think it's fair for God to kill the first born of every Egyptian, including those that had nothing to do with the enslaving of the Jews?

That was only done because the Pharoah would not let the Israelities leave slavery in Egypt.

[notyou2]

How can you quote someone 400 years after it happened? They must have had tape recorders 2000 years ago.

Recorders were usually known as scribes back in the day. It is said that Jelalludin Rumi --in Persia-- had a pair that accompanied him everywhere to "record" his stories and spiritual expressions.

Bump a few neutrons around and you get something new, or maybe it was there all along.
Maybe the sign on Jesus' shop was misinterpreted and actually read "Gone Fission."

I understood that much of the present new testament was written 300 years or more after Jesus' death and taken from word of mouth stories. Also, many pagan rituals, festivals and beliefs were also incorporated in the christian faith. Many of these dating back thousands of years before Jesus. My point is that christianity was either written long after the events that it is based upon, or borrowed items from many other religions and incorporated them, yet the book is held in that it is gods word when clearly it is a man made object.

[Symmetry]

Well, there are portions that are clearly outlined as stories, such as the parables. There are also parts where there are dreams and interpretations of dreams. You read the Bible just like any other literary work to learn which parts are allegory and which are literal. There are literary words and phrases that people look for to help determine which parts are which. I'm a chemist, not a biblical scholar, so I can't just go through and give details on every single passage.

Indeed, people who argue that the Bible is literal truth often make that mistake. I'd add some elements of prophecy in their too as parts that are not literal truth, but meant to be interpreted- kind of adding on to the dreams part.

[Night Strike]

I understand that,what I want to know is how any mere fallible human can be sure about the intentions of the deity?Sounds kinda fatuous and arrogant to me..

Because there are parts where it specifically states the intentions of God: to restore the relationship between Himself and those He created who rebelled against Him through sin.

How can you quote someone 400 years after it happened? They must have had tape recorders 2000 years ago.

There are more early manuscripts closer to the time of the actual events for most of the Bible than any of the old, major works that are assumed to be true and complete today. Yet people try to hold the Bible to a different and completely arbitrary standard in order to discredit it from challenging their own world views. The parts of the Bible were not written 400 years after they happened; they were only compiled into a form closer to the one we have today at the Council of Nicaea.

[Symmetry]

I understand that,what I want to know is how any mere fallible human can be sure about the intentions of the deity?Sounds kinda fatuous and arrogant to me..

Because there are parts where it specifically states the intentions of God: to restore the relationship between Himself and those He created who rebelled against Him through sin.

How can you quote someone 400 years after it happened? They must have had tape recorders 2000 years ago.

There are more early manuscripts closer to the time of the actual events for most of the Bible than any of the old, major works that are assumed to be true and complete today. Yet people try to hold the Bible to a different and completely arbitrary standard in order to discredit it from challenging their own world views. The parts of the Bible were not written 400 years after they happened; they were only compiled into a form closer to the one we have today at the Council of Nicaea.

Which works that are considered to be true? I'm a little curious on that line.